1.3 physics discussion cont on bac board.

[aougli]

Of course, 1.2 and its physics is a few years old, and 1.3 and its physics is barely a few hours old.  Youth is characterised by arrogance.  

[appel]

You guys are forgetting one crucial thing about BZ2, it is a strategy game yes, but it is ALSO a ACTION game...action strategy.

It's not just the hovering part. When I'm in that scout the game is boring, you cannot even run from newbies because that scout is just slow and not as agile, feels like you're in a coffin.
And also, if you run towards a hill you bounce off it, lose speed and the newbies kill you. You cannot put your nose down like in 1.2, you don't gain any speed.

In 1.2 I can take off like a jet on a aircraft carrier, but in 1.3 it's like I'm trying to control a freaking coffin!

And also, I don't like these responds I'm getting from the members on this forums. We posted in good faith trying to comment on the 1.3 beta, and they just close the topic? Case closed? This issue won't go away simply by sticking your head in the sand.

Just call this 1.2 NOOB patch, so the newer players can play around with it until they are ready for some real games in 1.2, ZST, FE.
If they want this patch, they can have it. If I can't have my say, and dozens of others, then screw this patch...I'm not even going to think about it and I'll endorse other to do the same.

[BZZERKER]

Well, If a newb can kill you, I guess your not that good of a "vet".

[aougli]

Wrong.

There should be a noticable difference between skillful players and less experienced players.  Removing the elements that allow a human player to stand out is dumbing down the game and is regrettable.

[OvermindDL1]

How are the scouts slow, I can zip and buzz around just as ever as I was in 1.2.

[Fried]

Unfortunately overmind if you can zip about as well in 1.3 as well as u can in 1.2 then your playing 1.2 wrong, ive been a 1.3 beta tester for 2 years now and 1.3 doesnt have the manouverabilty in dogfighitng that 1.2 has.

I like mid air hover dogfights , ive done them on a regular basis for 5 years now, unfortunately i feel that if bz2 had been released without the hover bug it may very well of never made it to this 5 year stage with so many players still having fun.
Take bz1 i played it enjoyed it but i dont go back to it's physics because i find them boring.

At anyone here, to go fast u dont use the left strafe key anymore, just forward and jump.
Long jumps require you to lift ur nose rather than bury it in the sand.
nose downing will make you go faster but u gota watch how low u drop it.

[OvermindDL1]

The tank feels the same to me.  I never use the scout.  I do use the morter bike if I am constrained to (I love morters, will not pilot a vehicle without em), it feels pretty similier, I just played with it and just for testing was able to get high enough I couldn't see the ground, stayed up for about 20 seconds, then started losing too much altitude.

[Lizard]

I can't believe you are all still making such a big issue out of one minor change , grow up children .

Adapt and survive or fall by the wayside , hovering is gone and good riddance to bad bugs .

Any real "vet" wouldn't be here crying like a little child , they'd be out there practicing their skills and learning new ways to win and new tactics , I say that moaning about the loss of hovering displays a very noobish attitude towards the game .

[CaptPicard]

If you think about how great the game is and how it has lasted for so long then why potentially screw it up and annoy a large portion of the people that play/support this game by removing one of the most important parts of any game.... THE FUN PART, I find the lack of manoeuvrability in the air bloody boring because there are now, no more high seed chases, flying fights, fun base attacks etc, all you got to do now is get a load of AI and roll it up to there base.

I would love to see a hover switch in the shell; this would keep all players happy and make the bz2 community grow again. I fear that this community is now going to divide and decrease in size, please do something about it instead of talking down at us, being rude and arrogant.

[Lizard]

There is more to BZ2 than simply hovering in chain scouts , I find it very narrow minded that you can condemn this patch on such a minor issue . Things change , that's the way of the world , and in my opinion this is a very good change , if you are unwilling to give this patch a chance just because of one small issue then you don't really appreciate what this game is about .

Infact it's sad that a game that has so much strategic and tactical depth has been ruled for so long by a single tactic that was a "bug" in the first place . If you can't move on and discover what a really deep and wonderful game this is , then all I can say is that I pity you .

[Avatar]

I would love to see a hover switch in the shell; this would keep all players happy and make the bz2 community grow again.

*sigh*

This IS a problem.  Let me try to explain it this way.

Remember BZ1's "Scav Traps"?   Scavengers would hit a certain slope that they couldn't get up, start to back up hitting part of the slope they COULD get up and decide that the original path was OK and start up again, becoming stuck there permanently.  This was a bug.  A programming error.  In the case of the Scav the 'extra' code that told it to grab scrap didn't get along with the basic unit code that showed it how to move around, shared by all of the units.  

To fix such things sometimes means altering a basic part of the program that affects all units.  It can't always be targeted to one particular unit or one type of action.  A lot of the code affects a lot of different things...

An example of this is at one point in 1.3 Constructors would start up a hill with a steep slope only to keep climbing into orbit at the top.  (very funny the first time you saw it, "stairway to heaven" sort of thing)  This was unintentional also, the result of changing some small bit of physics code to fix something else.

Asking for a switch to restore the bug is unreasonable.  The factors that caused 'hovering' were errors in basic parts of the physics code.  They've been fixed and cannot be turned on or off at will, or even put back.

Asking GSH and Ken to work on developing legitimate code to make units 'hover' is also out of the question, so don't go there either.  It was a bug from the beginning and regardless of how fun it was it's gone along with a TON of other bugs.

The REAL issue is whether or not 1.3 has enough in it to make it worth people living without 'hovering'. I think it does but everyone needs to give it a chance and not just blow it off because one buggy thing is gone...  Again, decide what's most important to you and stick with the version that gives you that.  

As to it dividing the Community...

I've got six different versions of BZ2 switching around on my HD right now without any trouble.  Dividing the Community?  Nope.  Expanding it!   Just think of it as another Mod and switch around when you want...  But give it a decent run before you decide which version is best...

-Av-

[Spacecomber]

Please folks, keep the comments focused on the patch and avoid the ad hominems.  There's no reason to avoid this discussion, as long as folks can adhere to that ground rule.

[Avatar]

This being possibly the single biggest whine about the 1.3 patch I think it should be aired as much as the 'vets' need it to be.  Let them have their say and get it out of their system.  As long as everyone remains civil it's not doing any harm.

Everyone else can avoid this thread and concentrate on the real issues...

-Av-

[deadscion]

I just did a direct comparison to BZ2 1.2 ISDF mission 2 scout ship Versus the same mission with a scout ship in 1.3

The scout ship in 1.3 is stiff and clumsy by comparison.

If this sort of thing holds true with the rest of the ships in 1.3 then I am afraid I will have to side with the rest of the strat community on the physics issue.

I like a good hard MPI, however I require there to be some method to the madness, a way to win, some kind of goal I can reach by some means and when I reach that goal be satisfied with what I have done. yeah good game AI kicked my ass a couple times but I got him back.


There is nothing worse then a clumsy ship to frusterate, hamper and handicap what I am trying to accomplish. The first thing I do is look for a better ship to do what I need done. If I can't find any ships worth using for a high skill MPI game I will not use 1.3 for MPI.


Like I said it is still too soon for an accurate opinion of this, but so far it is too stiff and clumsy.

[AlbinoPenguin]

There is a point I must say I don't agree on Lizard. Come play with any of us so called "vets" in a game of ZST. We are having 1-2 hour games where hovering makes very little difference.

Infact, the only thing it really does is add more movement, and hence me options for a player to be creative in dogfights. Lets remember that I like options for a later point.

For over 3 years I have played bz2 now. About 6 months after I started playing I believed the same as alot of the players on this board do. That hovering was crap, and way unbalanced. But having played alot of online games in the past, I rolled with it and tried to learn how to deal with it. Now, with the small "no hover in base" observerd by most vets, I don't have a problem with, and no, it isn't because I hover the crap out of ppl's bases. ASk most ppl I play with, I use the old school strafe tactic on bases. Even though I have demostrated I can hover a spire if needed, Hovering doesn't make much of a difference in games we play, expect it gives us more "fun", which after all, is what gaming is(or should be) about.

ZST is another matter all together, we don't even need to say "no base hover". I dare anyone to come hover a real "so called vet's" base in ZST... Once you can do that, come back and tell me hovering is so unbalanced.(goes for a round the world trip waiting...)

Now, back to the "I like options" statement. Is the any real harm in adding a "Old Lame Physics/New Physics" button? The way I see it, it has the following good points:

1) An option which can "drastically" change a way a game is played is very favourable among almost all gamers I know. It gives the game greater replay value, and can keep players entertained longer. eg, being able to play as either ISDF or Scion.

2) It would enable "vets" to be able to use 1.3, an hence join 1.3 new physics games without rstarting bz2, but still be able to enjoy in the odd(or common) game with the old physics enjoyed for years by the HUNDRED or so dedicated "vets".

3) Players that wish to play with new physics can do so without even thinking about the old style(Set new as default), therefore keeping the people who dislike 1.2 hovering happy.

4) Would stop a larger community split that is on the verge of happening, which, is DEFINITELY not the best thing for a game that already has got a very small user base. Remember, these hundred odd "vets" having been playing this game for years, and have stuck by it loyally, only to have their opinions ignored in the end? Nice way to say thanks =)

5) Once again... Tell me the harm in an option? now, weight this against the pros? Hmm....

Now, before any of you guys that dislike hovering flame me. Lets get some facts down.

1) I have been playing bz2 ONLINE for over 3 years, along with my cousin "Stalker"

2) I have been in a couple of major bz2 clans, including some smaller ones. Most notable is {TsL}, which I was a bz2 division leader for, and comprised a division player base of around 44 at its peak. More recently *GEL*, which contains a fair amount of "elite" "vets".

3) I once thought hovering was lame, when I was a "newbie". That was before I learnt a few more skills and tactics in bz2, and it become fairly easy to counter.

4) I have done a fair bit of modding in bz2, including doing server things that were previous determined as "impossible" on the old Pandi boards. (Please not, us "vets" stuck with bz2 alot longer then "Pandi" give, and haven't giving up on it yet...)

5) I intend on playing 1.3, and I will once again, learn to "roll" with it. Having said that, I will still have a 1.2 install, even though I really can't spare the space, and I find it annoying having to swtich between installs to join a game.(because of time required, and game can become full, or closed before you get back into bz2). This is the main reason I don't play bz2.(Oh how I wish for a simple option button)

6) I think a few players on here who aren't "pro" hover can vouch for my skills. Last night, I had a 3v1, where I didn't hover at all, and I still won. Now don't say, so whats the big deal with no hover... Its not that "hovering" has been removed, its the feeling of "lack of mobility" in the new scouts that is the most frustrsting. Why don't we just make the game 2d, give the ships one set speed for all directs, that way, everyone can control the ships as good as one another, and player "skill" won't be are part of the game... Personally, from what I have seem over the years, almost everyone who complains about hovering(bar a select few), isn't able to control there ships as well as the said "hovers". Hence, there aren't really whining about "hovering", but the disparity in skill/hand-eye co-ordination. You see it in all games. "Damn it NoK, stop cheating, you can't possibly get that many head shots with the sniper rifle" - Quote from VietCong, in a server with Hradbra Anticheat engine running. The big difference I see in VC and bz2, is the "developpers" don't completely listen to ppl complaining about "disparity" in skill. It is a simple fact of life, some people are better at certain things then others. Get used to it.

Well, I have "ranted" another for tonight. Time to go continue trying out bz2 1.3, with the odd "fun" 1.2 game thrown in.

Have fun, good luck, and die Well.

No|<0mm3nt

PS: Please excuse typo's, silly grammer mistakes. I don't have time to fix it up atm, I prefer playing bz2 =)