Thanks Nathan, Ken & testers and thanks gods flying is g

[Artighel]

As a french lover of Battlezone 2 since its release, I would like to congratulate Nathan, Ken & beta testers for the numerous and long hours spent to build this patch. Thank you to have dedicated a lot of your personal time for improving this unique and mis-known (and likely mis-understood ) game.

I know there is a crisis now in the community, sparked by those who were used to a bug, so used to it that : for them fixing this bug means destroy their mean to play.

I have knowledges in vehicule behavior physics (I am a car engineer and I designed the Formula 1 behavior in F1 Racing Championship, as a Ubisoft infodesigner) and all that I can say is : flying with hovering vehicules is a bug, a non-sense in physics.
But I don't want to re-launch this hot discussion.

I want to talk about two categories of players.

In the first category, players always want more power, more control, more speed etc. and don't care about things like game balance and physics. Flying is a magical thing that is increasing the efficiency of a player... but it allows to go over and avoid obstacles on the map, obstacles which have been built to stop physical vehicule and not magical flying vehicules. It also allows to kill units which can't see you or can't shoot on you - logical : enemy units, physical ; you, magical.

In the second category we found the players who care about things like game balance, and physics. If someone asks them if they want more power, more control and more speed, they will answer : "no thank you, if I had these extra-things, this particular unit would become useless, and this one way too powerfull" "if I had these extra-things, it would create non-senses" " if I had these extra-things, the game would be definitely less fun".

Now which category of players are you belonging from ?

[PhoeniX-FlamE]

what you say about balance sounds like non sense.. let me give you example

if the enemy can avoid all the obstacles u talked about dont you think you can to?

if the enemy can kill a full base without taking scratch cant you as well?

its not like 1 side is better then other if both learn how and master it
its all about gaining skills... if they can do it to you = u can do it to them

only it seems u guys forgetting this...
if we can fly and burn your base without taking dmg so can you if you just try to learn and master it like we did!
we spent time and enegry learning that... u can do the same
why do you just want to take all that spent time away from us?

[BZZERKER]

its all about gaining skills

This couldn't be truer. If your not willing to be owned by a n00b in 1.3 until you learn some new skills then please go back to 1.2 and let the ppl who want to actually try to help get 1.3 sorted out do they're job.

This is probably the biggest problem with 1.3. EVERBODY starts back at the begining.....a n00b. Some "vets" can't handle this. There is a cure, GO OUT AND PLAY 1.3 TILL IT HURTS, then play it some more. Report any problems you have or observations you've made in a clear, consise, calm manner.

[Phaser]

So as a physic master can you explain to me why a ship taking aerodynamic position. Sticking nose to the ground, using jump "thruster" and moving a bit on one side to use the "straff" Thruster of this side to gain more propulsion power is going the same speed as a ship following him heads up with aim on target and using only 1 thruster?

Explain to me why a ship equipped with a backside thruster when it take a jump (hill) can take height but will drop straight down after reaching the max height. Rather then finishing its buckle and make an eclipse over its target to finish its course on the other side?

Just throw a ball at 50 or 60 degree from ground level and tell me it will drop down at almost 90degree after it reached the maximum height! And again your ball doesnt have 5 thruster.

I can understand that infinite hovering is a bug and had to be eliminated, its not like we are driving choppers here, we are driving hover scouts equiped with 5 thrusters. 2 Straff, 1 for propulsion, 1 for taking height(jump) and 1 for going backside.
Those scouts arent meant like a conventional hovercraft that goes on water and ground, they are designed like planes with 2 wings and a tail.

Now the problems that most vets have with the new physics are simple, of course they concern hover because by taking hover out of the game they also took out most of the maneuvrability of the scout.

By the way im not from any the players group you mention, im a hardcore player, i play over 8 hours everyday many diferent games. I played bz2 exclusively over 3 years and half, i stopped when everyone started playing at mwf 1 cause i didnt wanted to have to exploit a bug in the game to stay competitive. And anyway MWF is the major cause of extensive warp in 1.2, it is the major factor of people been hit and getting healed back magicly.

Hover never been an issue to me because i can achieve more damage to a base without it. I prefer be in sight of ennemy so when they try shooting me they must cause colateral damage to their own base. Just yesterday my comander order to hit the ennemy recycler all togheter. Wich we did and the rec was low red but while trying to kill me the ennemy damaged their factory to half health. When the commander who died first came back alone to finish rec he had enuff amo to kill both by himself recycler and factory. Well thats off topic anyway.

All i wanted to say is yes hovering like a chopper is abnormal but hovering itself is the essence of a hover ship. Hey i have more maneuvrability in air with my bmx then with the new ships in 1.3, common something must be wrong!

EDIT: i was forgetting the main goal of this thread, Thx nathan and ken and also all the beta testers for puting your time and energy into this project. I guess after all balances issue will be fixed most people that complain atm will calm down and apreciate the 1.3 patch better. Untill that time everyone will give their opinions on what they like and dislike, some will control their temper while other wont.

[MowerMan]

It is not a physics bug, and has nothing to do with any kind of present day vehicle physics.  It has to do with field physics.  The craft are lightweight, and made boyant by gravitaional interaction.  The craft "float"in the planetary gravitational field (that extends in a sphere around the craft). all  planar/surface movement is controlled by atmosphere independant thrusters.  That is how the craft are modeled. and real craft would behave much the same way if similar technology existed in the real world (none of which is all that far fetched concepts).  I firmly believe that we may one day have that kind of control over gravity (maybe not the too far off).

I don't mind the way the craft handle in 1.3 (even thought 1.2 is a bit better), but the flying in 1.2 is not a physics bug.  (fully prepared  to be accused of being a lamer cheat who doesn't appreciate what the designer of this game intended)

[aougli]

I was hoping we'd abandoned comparing BZ2 to reality.  

In my experience, the people who were best at BZ2 1.2 are still the best at BZ2 1.3.  They are very similar.  One important aspect of the game, movement, has changed a bit.  It hasn't changed that much, but it has changed.  The way that change was announced and handled was not particularly skillful, nor was criticism of the change, regardless of the merits of the change.

And yes, thanks to GSH and whoever else at who Pandemic helped out, and the people who run these boards.  

[PhoeniX-FlamE]

so u think im a newb in 1.3??

just a few days ago i went on and play

YES I PLAY 1.3 from time to time but i dont enjoy it as much as 1.2...
probably even almost hate 1.3 in compare... but some cant even compare because its almost a new game... more a mod then a patch - but never mind that

u saying im a newb in 1.3?!
just the other day ago i went in a 4 way strat

teams... but i was 3ed to join.. alone....
anyways they were total newbs... no attacking pools
*sigh* w/e... they were realy sucky so i found 5 open pools...
5! and they started 30 mins before me... what the hell they were thinking i dont know....
then one say he is coming to kill me with his tank..
me still in default scion scout.. he didnt even got me to 75 with what ever weapon he tried...
i have been called cheater in 1.3 as well
also, lets not talk about a dm we had that i felt they were soo tempted to kick me and at 1 point i think i got banned... cause i got like a kick... no error.. just got back to choosing a server and the server was gone...
maybe the server left but i raped them sooo good they called me cheated and followed me around the map just trying to kill me once..
at 1 point they did... then one of them killed my pilot

now, that was the only game 1.3 had up... and it seemed almost most games are like that... now realy, whos playing 1.3? newbs or vets?
and who is still a newbie in 1.3 compare to the vets of 1.2?

i have np showing you i still have skills in 1.3 any1 wants a match?

[PhoeniX-FlamE]

oh and let me add..

taking 1 skill we masted can be somehow ok...
cause u can get used to new stuff...

but from taking a skill and ruining the fun theres a big difrence...

[Kalpa]

Phoenix-Flame, it is not 'almost a mod' it is nowhere near a mod. It is a damn patch. Only a patch. Nothing more than a patch. It is sad that so many people consider it something else. I was about to write a long and pretty bitter rant about this state of bz2 community but decided not to post it, as it would only cause more verbal war from somewhere.

Well, maybe I'll write something general here too. If you, dear reader, want to take it personally, then you do, but this is not meant for anyone particular (No, Phoenix-Flame, this is no longer directed to you.)

What saddens me most is the general attitude of measuring everything in skill. "You're a n00b" is an insult to a 'vet' player, because he's not n00b, he's very good player, he can come and kill you from every possible direction even his eyes closed while playing quitar... it saddens me to have people getting angry about 'who's better and who sucks'... it saddens me that people don't seem to be able to have fun playing, only beating the hell out of the opponent. In my opinion, games aren't for serious competition, rather for having fun. The having fun aspect is so damn often forgotten today... it is really sad.

Ahh, hell, what am I fooling around. This isn't going to change anything anyway and is surefire way to get flaming started at me. Never mind all this. But hey, try this: update to 1.3 and play it. I know, I know, there aren't players for it yet, but hey, if you don't update, then who will? That's right, no one. I sincerely think that 1.3 addresses so many nasty bugs (Just an example off my hat, and no, this is not the critical one: I as a w2k user am delighted that I can type, though no more with scandinavian letters, but at least won't have to do that shift+home and delete trick every time I start typing something... and even tab can be used in the console! WOO!) that it's worth updating it even for that. So what if you lose the ability to fly continuously (most of the anti-1.3 stuff relates directly to this, God knows for what reason), does it matter that much? It does? Go get Flight Simulator, man! BZ2 as a fps/strategy hybrid game is clearly not your choice...

[Jwk the Hemp Monkey]

here here.

I have always been against flying, and i do fine without it in FE (do not like 1.2 so much, a little to simple (relativly) to FE) so i am really looking forward to proper non-flying gaming.

As i have said in-game rather a few times, to use an exploit to gain an advantage over another player is insulting and rude to the other player. certain players who considered themseleves 'vets' had a right go at me, saying i  was skillless etc etc etc. But the truth is it is *not* that hard to fly, and anyway, i CHOSE not to learn it.

However, ramping up a hill and arcing across the sky (arcing, not falling or flying) is a really exilerating experience. If 1.3 makes it harder...but possiable, then the experience would be even better!.

Also, the mobility of the scouts/tanks etc had reached a fairly good balence. Hopefully this balence can be remade.

In conclusion : I would like to be able to glide though the air on my own momentum (not engines) in 1.3

I would like the 'ground' mobility of the units of BZII 1.3 to be a close enough match to what they were in 1.2

[NukeDaddy]

Agreed.  I've had more fun shooting tanks from a helocopter in BZ1942 Desert Combat than BZ2 "hovering."  If you want a challenge, master helo piloting with a mouse and a keyboard (instead of a joystick).  It's almost like the "hover vets" have never played any other games or something....

[almechist]

For what it’s worth, I will weigh in on this topic. I, also, never really saw flying as much more than a curiosity. Fun, perhaps, but not essential to the game. Certainly I never learned how to take out a base from above while taking no damage myself. Now, I hardly ever play strat, but if I did and someone did that to my base in a game, I would consider it to be rather lame. And it is, if the person whose base you’re attacking is unfamiliar with the exploit. But let’s get to the point... I don’t have a problem with hovering being eliminated in 1.3, for whatever reason. Call it a bug, exploit, or cool-but-hard-to-master tactic, I accept that it’s gone, finis, kaput, and will never return. However, that said, my first thought upon experimenting with 1.3 in a sabre tank was: WTF, it feels like I’m trying to move through thick syrup! Things are a bit livelier in a scout, but there is still a distinct ‘thickness’ to the atmosphere. I don’t like this much, and that’s a fact. I have no stake in the flying/no flying controversy, but I still don’t like the feel of 1.3. Which is interesting, because I like FE just fine, and correct me if I’m wrong but isn’t there no flying in FE? So, to sum it up, I would like the physics in 1.3 to be more like, or identical to, FE.

To the people who are getting so upset over the elimination of their beloved exploit, I say: the game was never supposed to revolve around flying, and removing it is a valid decision, so accept that flying is gone. This doesn’t mean that the physics of 1.3 aren’t flawed! I could care less about flying, but I don’t much like the way ships handle in 1.3. I’ve been playing BZ2 and its various mods for almost 4 years, and that’s my opinion, take it for what it’s worth. Let me add that I appreciate very much the effort and time that Ken and Nathan put into this patch, and I’m absolutely appalled at the infighting that has resulted upon it’s beta release. I consider myself to be outside the whole flying controversy, with no opinion one way or another as to who is right, but it’s clear to me that emotions are running way too high on both sides. Come on people, can we please move on to something a little more constructive than name calling and/or quitting the board in disgust?

[Phaser]

Well FE use 1.2 physics, you dont see much hovering in FE because the defences are stronger and can basicly stop it. At least if your not very well used to hovering you wont use it in FE.

To go right to the point, most people that complain about no-hovering have their real issue with the physic itself. SLowing down the propulsion from the straffs/back/jump thruster "seem" to have been the solution to counter "infinite Hovering". Altho we know that some tweak might be done to the ships to give em back their mobility, this end up with the problem to bring back hovering in a way. I havent had the pleasure to test the variant recycler to speech about it but i think we talking about infinite hovering there again.

Wich in fact is the problem, a hover space ship as the scout is must in a way be abble hover but not to fly like and helicopter. Here is the real problem, i eard that nathan had solution #2 for hovering, i just hope this solution if applied will allow maneouvrability too.

Now what we need for the commun of mortal that most of us are is to know and understand what might be tweaked and what may not be. Cause most people that try the patch lately arent beta testers, modder or programers. Most of us have absolutly no knowledge on what is balance exactly and what its represent.

Now if constructive critisism is wanted their is a serious need to let everyone know what aspect must be looking into. Right now its free for all no explanation just a beta patch released to the public. Many of who download the patch at start and tried didnt even realized it was a "beta". i Seen post on diferent forums saying: "1.3 is out! Get it here!" and a link was given to where to download it, thats it.

Now is someone will take the time to explain to our poor gamers what they must look into if they want to help? Because atm everybody have complain about the speed, propulsion and weight of ships but nobody really took time to open a thread to suggest their idea. And this is valid for many other aspect still been tweakable. I could start my own thread about balance issues and stuff like that but i see no point for me to do it since im not even sure of what can be changed what have been decided and will not be changed. So yes like many people i have good ideas but i need a starting point cause modding and game programation are kind of unknown to me.

[aougli]

In the file: GamePrefs.ini which can be found: C:\Program Files\Battlezone II 1_3 public\addon\config there are some settings that can be changed.  In particular, I have experimented with the network.maxsmooth and the usenewtimeskew settings (use Ctrl F and enter "smooth" and "skew").

Be careful about changing settings in this file, it is possible to mess up the game if you get things wrong (deleting lines, entering strange values, etc.,).  Maybe take a backup of it before experimenting.

http://bzuniverse.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=1734 is a thread with some useful discussion, and my present settings.

Also, check out this thread: http://bzuniverse.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=1672 for different scouts.  Servers will have to open the console and type in: network.session.svar4=Evehicles.txt . This is necessary every time a map is selected (even when switching to another before the game starts). I think there is information in readme s.  You might want to check out Aegis's new site http://cutrzedge.net/portal/index.php if you have queries or http://www.timedisruptor.com/forum/index.php.

Please post back if you find out anything useful, or just what works best for you.

[Phaser]

thx aougli