Scion Rights!

[PhoeniX-FlamE]

if i only had some ammo *sniff*

[DarkFox]

If you had some ammo you still would have died, since both your escorts had been killed, and did you know that when a walker has full health and fights a mauler, begins firing at maximum range etc, the fight is still pretty much a draw?
Add the peppering our wings were giving you... *very* dead walker, it wouldn't have even been close if you *had* ammo.

The relevance to this topic is getting slim, any chance this topic could be split or something?

[PhoeniX-FlamE]

have u tried it? mauler just *starting* to run after 1 / 2 shots towards the walker in full range while the walker has full ammo and health?
the walker also used a lil bit of laser...

u sure u tested it?
the mauler was almost half when it was 150m near me... i had no ammo at all

[Dino]

I know for a fact that when scions get blink, they lose.
Cause most players will use all 4 blink blasts to get into battle and forget they need ammo to fight....

Allow blink dark fox, its a newbies weapons, and not a strong one, a plasma walker will take just about anything the scions will throw at them.

The scions have early-mid game advantages with Solar Flare, and Morph..... None of the other races (hadean is an exeption) can stand up to scions duing this.

Once the plasma walker comes out, its all over for scions and hadeans.
Blast walker is stupid

[PhoeniX-FlamE]

wow dino, you are totaly wrong...

scions are extremly weak at start, scions scouts have no chance against a well piloted mini-faf ISDF scout, and i dont think plasma damages the headen xypos 2 much... its also harder to aim with the plasma cannon compared to minigun and praticle gun (spelled right?), which are 'faster' and almost instant (almost instant compared to the plasma cannon, hehe)


i dont think you ever met a vet, because once scions get blink they won the game, and theres almost nothing isdf can do, unless if they can get a big unit (assult tank / walker) with alot of trucks... only then they can push scions back and kill those damn blinking wariors...
in 1.2 its just crazy.. blink doesnt use 2 much ammo, although in FE blink is still *extremly* usefull

flares are useless IMO, you can kill turrets easily, but if you play with rec defense you dont need turrets, and most cmdrs goes for gts 1st against scions, i personaly think none of em needed, once a scion morph he is an easy target, espicely if I still have my fafs

plasma walker? are you crazy?
plasma is weak compared to blast, and i dont think plasam does any "critical" damage to absrobotion wariors, scouts
or the heavy units that scions are using - maulers and titans...

i do think, that walker got a chance to stand vs a mauler - with blast but i havnt checked yet

more to add, if your gonna use plasma walker - i can just get m-curtien (if im isdf or hadeans [hadeans got m-curtien right?]) and it will deflect your plasma shots

[DarkFox]

Dino - wrong on almost every point. I'll disect them one by one...

I know for a fact that when scions get blink, they lose.
Cause most players will use all 4 blink blasts to get into battle and forget they need ammo to fight....

Allow blink dark fox, its a newbies weapons, and not a strong one

Blink allows the scion players to either win or draw every single dogfight they enter. Newbies might blink into combat, but vets never do this. Vets reserve their blink for escaping if they're losing a fight, or catching up with an escaping enemy. In simple 1v1 combat, it means either the scion escapes, or the ISDF ship dies. ISDF ships cannot escape when scions use blink, and ISDF ships cannot kill when scions use blink.
In 2v2, 3v3 or 4v4 games the inbalance is even stronger, because even if the scion player *does not* win his fight, his teammates can finish his opponent off while he blinks away.
Just when you think thinks can't possibly be worse, you witness a scion player losing a dogfight, blinking back to base for pods, then blinking back to their wounded foe and finishing the job. It's a joke.

, a plasma walker will take just about anything the scions will throw at them.

Not at all. Even without sonic cannon, a plasma walker can be easily beaten by a mauler or a titan. When the scions *do* use sonic cannons, the plasma shots will rarely even get a single hit, due to the sonic shells pushing the plasma away.

The scions have early-mid game advantages with Solar Flare, and Morph..... None of the other races (hadean is an exeption) can stand up to scions duing this.

First of all, yes, solar flare is amazing for taking out turrets, but there are two major problems with scions that prevent this from being a game breaker - the first is that only starting scouts have flares, and the ISDF team will rip your ships to shreds in the opening dogfight, taking away your flares. The second is that good ISDF players will not use turrets against scions - seeing as how scions have to morph to do any damage to your base, and since a morphed scout is a larger target, moving very slowly, with no way to defend itself, and with it's health reduced from 1200 to 900 (ISDF scouts have 1800 health). With this in mind, ISDF players quickly realise that it's easy to defend against scion base attack *without* turrets.
The second problem is that morphing is the *only* scion way to attack pools, meaning you have to risk your life every single time you attack a pool.
In short, scions have very little chance of surviving a dogfight against good ISDF players that can switch between minigun and faf skillfully. Even if they *do* survive, there will be no turrets to flarebomb, unless the ISDF commander is an idiot.

Once the plasma walker comes out, its all over for scions and hadeans.  
Blast walker is stupid

First of all, the plasma walker is a 105-scrap top-tech-tree unit, meaning it probably wont come out at all. Secondly, the plasma walker can be taken out by almost any scion unit. A drone can do it, a warrior can do it, a lancer can do it, a sentry can do it, a titan can do it, and a mauler can do it. Plasma walkers, in short, are complete rubbish. Blast walkers *do* pose a problem, but if the scions are indeed allowed to blink, they will effortlessly blink behind your walker and quill it to death.

The very bottom line is that scions have a weaker early game, but a very strong late game, and this is *without* blink. If blink is allowed, scions have a difficult early game, and an almost gauranteed win when they get blink. The money you save from never losing a ship can buy you countless spires all over the map, massive mauler attacks, infinite scavs, upgraded pools everywhere, pilot bazookas, useless jammers, and anything else you can possibly waste cash on. 3 maulers is normally all you need to do to win though, and it's not hard to afford them when you're never losing a ship.
It's also very frustrating to play against, and eventually becomes very frustrating to use. I just feel cheap when I use blink, and I *know* there is nothing the enemy team can do if the teams are even remotely balanced.

[Jwk the Hemp Monkey]

I would prefer to do two things

A) change blink (although there is alot of talk this is not possiable)
B) simply stack the games in favour of the non scion team.

[DarkFox]

If there was a way to make blink chargegunclass, with 3-5 seconds chargetime, then yes, that would be dandy.
I can't figure out a way to do that though, and stacking teams against the scions doesn't work because they lose in the opening dogfights so badly, they haven't got a chance against stacked teams. Furthermore, even against stacked teams, blink is no fun to use. There's no adrenaline when you've got a safety net like that on your vehicle.

[Jwk the Hemp Monkey]

I totally agree with the charge gun idea. Shame it is not doable unless GSH thinks of it as a bug...which in stratergy terms it is.

If that option is not doable, then perhaps swaping it for another weapon, perhaps a very-ammo-draining 'force' weapon, or jax. Whilst improving the other specials.

[APCs r evil]

If that option is not doable, then perhaps swaping it for another weapon, perhaps a very-ammo-draining 'force' weapon, or jax. Whilst improving the other specials.

Personally I think Blink is fine the way it is and that removing it would take away some of the fun of playing Scions, when I first played BZ2 the only things that made me choose Scions over ISDF were, Blink, Lancers, Lungs and the fact that at the time I thought only the Scion Builder could climb. If it were up to me I would prefer to ban blink from games rather than remove it entirely.

[EndarkenD]

Personally, considering the upfront nature of a mauler id like to see it have upgraded healing capacity, if you look at the ballance of the game.
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archers/mortor bikes, rang ect the same, mortar bikes are probably more usefull as the mortars from archers take to long to hit ground units... unless your just useing them for aa...

scouts, well we already know there unbalanced, is it still unbalanced later on in the game, scion have shielding but does it make up for 700-900 hp..

Isdf tanks are definitly an equel match to the warrior, blink for phantom vr, sp cannon is way way too strong nowdays, cuts through everything in secounds, if you dont have shields your a gonner in a warriorand it smashes titans something feirce.

a mauler vs a walker, ok take into acount the walker had a range increase with its ass hardpoint, i dont think a mauler has a chance in a clear field, its not like they have a huge amount of life to get so up close and personal. maulers are also usless at defending themselves, 1 ai isdf tank will do it. its a good unit the mauler, in a class of its own though....

rckt tnk vs lancer, lancer can move around a bit but when ive tried killing an ai rckt tnk ive died everytime within 2 hits.... and with the bee bomb drones being as weak as they are in 1.3 theres no point using them, even if they hit they dont warrent the ammo cost to low dmg.. the drones used to be great.

titan vs ass tnk , titan rips it to shreds even with the rang dissadvatage.
titan vs walker , I havent tried this one yet but thewalker does outrang a titan.

ok now then bomber... um wheres the comparison unit
ok and sentry, what good is it, nice speed but even with shields its hard killing a isdf scout or killing a turret. its like a more expensive scout.

so from my understanding the scale in normal units favours isdf, on the basic compare this to that, without the sneeking behind a walker using blink shouldnt come into acount, thats a persons tactic just like vring up to a titan ambushing and running of.

I think scion needs a bomber, I modeled one for it but im no good at texture mapping at the moment. Whith that aside the scions need to be balanced up, how are you supposed to fend of isdf without 2 pools, where as isdf can build all its core base structures of 1 pool, so with weeker scouts and gaurdians you have to fend off stronger scouts and possibly mortar bikes depending if the isdf commander decides to go that way.

if you want to see the bomber http://www.endarkend.50megs.com/photo2.html

[Jwk the Hemp Monkey]

Those models are nice, but TBH i think you might need to disscuss scion stratergies with Dark fox a bit more. Perhaps they can be inculded for something else. They look very 'EDF'y to me.

However, one thing has become apparent. BLink is cool. People do not want to get rid of it because its *really* fun for some (i for one actually get an adrenaline rush using it, esp getting away at the last moment).

Although i do think bolt mine would be a great replacement to blink, but i still think blink should exist in some shape or form. Perhaps some kind of dedicated building that takes 105 scrap to make, has low armour and is at the very highest tech tree, and 'all' it does it give you blink...which you *have* to drop off, no prebuilt.

That would make it balenced again i suppose.

Now if someone could make a really scionic looking building that takes up one square.

[PhoeniX-FlamE]

archers can be hidden and they got HUGE range, i dont realy think u can compare them.. mtr bikes are usefull in defending sometimes, but the archer is probably a much better assult unit

scouts can be balanced, more or less - if scions wont use blink.. because shads tear shielded scion scotus apart... + a mix of chain scout and a laser scout will kill any shield (espicely both with shads)

empty arc vs empty laser - preaty balanced id say

isdf tanks are far from being a match to wariors, with blink that is...
once the scions get absrobotien on their wariors isdf tanks cant do much but dieing... more to add, when a tank fight a shielded warior, it usualy 'disables' his better weapon... so u get something like arc & gauss vs chain guns or arc & gauss vs laser
PL does nice dmg, and probably the best cannon isdf can have vs wariors, but it still far from giving isdf tanks a chanve vs a wariors (even without blink)
on a side note: mdm does real sweet dmg, but the chances ull hit with that are preaty small unless its a close range, and a smart warior wont let you get 2 close


mauler vs a walker, depends... FE walker? blast fe walker? i think too, that the walker will win - havnt tested yet though, also - a mag walker will kill the mauler in 1 shot (FE walker)
1.2 walker - mauler will win anyday no metter what weapon the walker has

rocket tanks are not the one you should be compaing with lancers
rocket tank is a mix of anti air (poper archer), fang mauler (close range salvo) and a lancer, or just a long range assult unit with hornets

titan vs ass tank - depends on the pilot... mdm will tear the titan apart IMO
but, the titan can easily dodge in 175 range with its arc, so it depends


a real bad compare was VIR to blink
vir is useless against scions, u can still target and see on radar
VIR is only used to dodge shads, not to ambush, wanna ambush? get red field

[DarkFox]

Phoenix's answer was pretty much dead on. Just to address the points he missed:

Sentry:
The sentry is *not* a useless unit, far *far* from it. Getting a kiln, forge, dower, then going for sentry with gauss and stasis shield, will give you a ship that runs out of ammo quickly, but can take on a laser scout *or* a chain scout with ease, and can still hit pools well.
Even better, you can skip the forge, and just use a kiln/dower, then use stasis and iongun, which will still kill chainscouts and laserscouts, and can fight well in combat *or* assault mode, so morphing to hit pools is no risk.

Bomber:
Scions definately do not need a bomber. I honestly think you need to play more strat games against good players, and see the awesome power of spirewalking, blink, or mauler rushes, at which point you'll quickly realise scions are powerful enough, thankyouverymuch.

Scouts:
I have no doubt at all that scion scouts are *the* most powerful scouts in the late game. Whether they're using sonic or arc, they are incredible when they have shields. A scout that can benefit from high-tech *cannons*, and has the ability to improve it's damage resistance with a shield. Even without blink, scion scouts are the best in the late game.
As for an arc empty vs a laser empty - that's a hard one, I personally don't use empty scouts much at all with scions, but I have a feeling the laser empty would win.

Mauler/walker:
Assault cannon walkers, like those in FE and 1.3, do indeed beat maulers in a straight up damage contect, firing starting at maximum range. If the mauler rushed around the side of the walker, I'm not completely sure.

Tanks:
SP stabber is a crap weapon for fighting vehicles. You'd have a much better chance with blast/chain/mortar (yes, mortar, not mdm)

[EndarkenD]

SP stab is an awsome weapon as far as weapon dmg, fire rate and ammo cost go, I like sentrys movment and yeah i normally use them with guas cannon but if i remeber right theres not quiet enough ammo to kill a scav pool.

"a real bad compare was VIR to blink
vir is useless against scions, u can still target and see on radar
VIR is only used to dodge shads, not to ambush, wanna ambush? get red field" well you said it... and blink isnt perfect, ive often lost my warrior  with under 5 life from blinking into a mountain. if anything it makes you conserve ammo more.

So what you are saying is that its not fair that scions are "so much stronger" endgame than isdf, making a new hi tech building wont help at all. are you saying that the blink special item should cost 50 scrap instead of 30.

archers are good for atacking buildings....... but the mortor takes way to long to hit its target making it usless in helping get ride of enemy units. I found that out playing an mpi with a friend. i only use archers in desperation as there hardly worth the scrap....

I was playing fortress map with a friend. It took 10 secounds for a isdf tank to kill a standard none shielded warrior with sp stab... never had a chance until we put stasis shields on.
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If i could texturemap id have both sides with a bomber and a bunch of pilotable aircraft as war tese days is as much in the air as on the ground and id put in a satilite that launched and fired an ion cannon to add the extra zing for isdf. Id also try and make the game more like dark reighn as in hover veichels are only good for flatish land, id add in wheel based buggies for hilly terain and try making 2 manned tanks by ataching one unit to the other so the botom one moved the top unit around and the top hopfully could swivel..... All just a dream though...

with 1.3 how high would be the recommended poly count? still around the 300-600 or more like 1000 - 2000?? not that theres much point in me asking, im never happy with the mapping so i dont put things ingame

just trying to get over this stupid migrain at the moment so forvgive any rambling and incoheriant chatter ive posted.