Scions vs Isdf balanced?

[Phaser]

My first thought about this issue was tottaly diferent untill i take a new aproach to the scions tech tree. I tested many aspect of scions vs isdf with a friend and here are my conclusions.

I think it been well balanced except for blink as it ever been.

First part the dogfight, well this area been ameliorate a notch making it for a more even start for both race. As we know isdf scouts been slowed down a tad wich make the first dogfight much more fair for scions scouts. As before scions got those flare to counter the faf missile isdf got. Flares also come in to balance tech tree a bit.

I havent had the pleasure to play a full game or even a deathmatch with scions ships yet, since im on 56k for a while i wont be abble to host anything. SO ill let other develop more on dogfight balance, altho id like to say blink as no counter and an easy way to counter blink imo would be the use of force shield in strats.

The tech tree well as before it takes longer and more scraps to build a full scions base then an isdf base. Specialy for weapons, since you need kiln, dower and radar to get something valuable. But the scions come in the game with solar flares mines wich is really a great weapon. These flares allow to a scions team to pressure an isdf base early in game and easily if teamwork is involved. It will force isdf to build a gun tower before going for the diabolic armory. Wich by itself compensate for the gun spire required for scions to defend their base properly vs chaingun.

Further then that in tech tree we come back to that blink issue wich make the scions ships become tottaly invulnerable if used properly. It also give the opportunity to scions to block anyone trying to retreat for services wich is in my opinion an annoyance.

About the defences, well i think its fairly balanced in this area, specially since howitzer destruction power been increased in 1.3. And to complete that you have the mighty radar jammer wich stop isdf from targeting your buildings for ai units and also deliver ships from previous target on them. The howitzer archer can destroy most likely any incoming heavy vehicle while poppers will stop airstrikes. Using turrets to cover blind spot will create a realy strong defences with a gun spire or 2.

On the isdf side they cant complain either, the hornet rocket tank is mighty to not say godly, the guntowers are a tad stronger then gun spires due to their attack speed. Turrets come with good guns like chains and pummels for defending against maulers around important structures. Assault tank with pl stab are also good defences units. So id say on the defences side isdf are a bit stronger but its all good and compenstae for the radar jammer scions have.

As for assault, well we all know isdf have good assault vehicles such as the tank with mdm mortars to tear defences appart, hornets and salva rocket tanks, Assault tank with mdm once again, the pummels gun and the mighty apc. The bomberis not to forget about either.

While for scions the only really good units for assaulting are warriors, the destructive maulers and the new ameliorate howitzer archers. Altho there is less possibility for scions to assault the available possibility are very strong. You cant compare the power of a fang or plasma stream mauler to any other isdf weapon except maybe pummels but the ammo capacity mauler do have really compensate here. As before 1.3 scions couldnt mortar a base properly without a minimum of 10 archers, now 1 archer will kill a gun tower pretty fast, making this unit a must in any type of assault.

For the warrior well using the right shield and blink, (piloted by human) its always gonna do more damage then it will take. And to not forget the scions builder. Right the builder is one of the strongest assault unit scions have, combine with sonic wave and a good distraction for the ai defences it give scions the possibility to recyle most likely any structure within the isdf base.

I think i covered almost everything, i didnt talk about walker and titan since their power is mostlikely the same and lancer are useless imho unless you got the ennemy defenceless.

Feel free to point my mistakes and to comment on the balance of both races, id really want to know what everyone think of blink and force shield.

[PhoeniX-FlamE]

i think there is a counter to blink in 1.3...

in 1.2 there was no counter at all...
but now with a smarter AI, a large force of AI could accutly damage and scare off human piloted wariors... of cousrse its still hard but i think it is possiable... if u can get a preaty strong group of hmmm 2 rocket tanks 1 or 2 assult tank and some other units (msl scout / tanks - AI piloted) they will do much better job and u could somehow take areas back and push the scions back... - this will be very hard but i belive its possiablbe, i havnt had the chance to test it though but it makes perfact sense...

in 1.2 isdf have a huge advantge at starts... faf are scion scout killer... and to kill a pool u risk so much, if isdf come in sight - espicely if he still have his starting faf... 6 faf hits with some mini and the ship is dead (when morphed - which is extra slow)

under a good cmdr the isdf will build 3 rats - still or just no defense at all... since there seems to be lack of scions cmdrs / thugs... (1.2)

slowing the scouts down probably decrese the advantge isdf have which im not sure if its a good thing... isdf have an advantge in start and if scions can survive that they should get time for advantge... - although it can last horus and hours while isdf can only rebuild their def and praying that this nightmare will be over...

im not sure about isdf having force though.. in any game it'll be used like VIR, on / off
and its realy annoying...  it can maybe be good idea... but i just wonder how people will use it, and if force will be availbe i think all the mines wont be used anymore.. instead of going with m-curtien to attack base u get 1 with m-curtien and all other force and they could empty half their ammo espciely with tanks... will be very hard to counter that kind of tank rush
its worth a try though... but it'll require alot of testing in both, isdf vs isdf and isdf vs scions

another thing, late scions game can last forever... which is terriably annoying... isdf games can as well... but only in realy equel teams - which is hard to get... and both teams must be realy exprienced and not to do a small mistake to cost them the game... and in the hand of good cmdr and its enough in "ok" thugs game will last forever.. which isnt a bad thing but scions vs scions is just pure boring... fight in middle - blink to bsae
go back to middle
fight - blink btb
pure boring... and heavy units never works in late scion vs scion games... the only thing that works is gun spire walk- which is EXTREMLY hard to achive in scion vs scion

i wonder how this could be change though... i know ill never do a scion vs scion game... pure boring.... either ends fast cause 1 team get tech - or just boring forever game

[Zero Angel]

Scions morph in 3 seconds now, making the more 'newb friendly' (for scion newbs that is), I have to say I really love that; but I wish blink were balanced in better to make up for that.

[PhoeniX-FlamE]

that lil starting things changes the WHOLE balance between scions and isdf making isdf sucking behind on starts....

thats the beuty of scions, starting weaker and getting better

what a balance mass

[Zero Angel]

I always thought that scions were balanced like that because they seemed like an afterthought of the developers and none of the devs really cared about them, but when you put it that way ...

[Phaser]

Well scions still a bit weaker on every aspect of the game except for dogfight, wich is the correct balance imo. Default scions scout got better weapons than isdf default as it always been. Faf may appear to unbalance this but the correct use of flares tottaly anhilate the use of faf against scions. It always been this way!

As for the morph time it is just better if it take less time to morph/unmorph. Morphing always been a problem for scions if it been fixed im not the one to cry about it. I must say it will make better 1 vs 1 fights around a pool altho scions are made for complete teamwork with someone morphing while other stay unmorphed and protect the first one. Vice versa till the pool is destroyed.

I dont believe it change the whole balance vs both race, its just an amelioration to the balance giving scions their correct fighting strenght.

Also the lack of good scions players isnt an issue to consider in balance, you must look at both race as if it was the most even players playing against each other. So imo building a base with 3 turrets only shouldnt be possible either isdf vs isdf, scions vs scions or isdf vs scions.

If this would become possible then you can talk about unbalance since the team that win the first dogfight would be abble to put up armory before the opponent may have a chance to come back. This never been an issue for vets in 1.2 and shouldnt become 1 in 1.3 either.

[PhoeniX-FlamE]

Phaser - no offense but uve been away for awhile.. and gamestyle always changes it seems...

i dont remember how it was in the old days, ive barly seen scions in use...

what i do know that good scions thugs are those that does a good pool work... its difrent then being isdf thug...

the best 1 to talk about it will be soul...

flares never helps in fights.. what u gonna do with a flare? it takes 2 secs before it "fires" and its easily avoided... + just send 1 faf and its dead without even looking at it... and ive seen newbs trigger it and go back and get wasted (newbs... go figure)

usualy scions either lose their fulls or just kills 1 someway while losing 2...
its extremly rare to find a game that all the scion team survived while the isdf team died...

scions were weak in everything expet defense and dogfighting / surving in late games (shields weapons and blink)
once scions get weapons they are unbeatable... period... the only way u can win after scions have wariors rolloing on the field is pummel rush on rec... and if its defended well the isdf will just suffer a slow death wihtout a chance of retlating...

isdf must strike fast, while they have the advantge... i think it was good enough balance.. its not that easy getting base up and keeping pools when u have chain scout swarming everywhere - and ur in a real weak unit (defense... 3 laser shots when morphed / + 1/2 faf when unmorphed)

and if isdf just 1 have laser ur base is well proteceted with no AI defense...
isdf is overpowered at start while scions at later games...

and now that u take the isdf advantge in starts its just a balance mass

[Zero Angel]

Also, flare does work better in 1.3; With scions getting these upgrades, and ISDF getting some downgrades physics wise, i'm wondering if the Scions wont become too powerful.

I know that in 1.2, those who mastered scions have become better then any ISDF player could ever hope to be.

[Jwk the Hemp Monkey]

I agree with PF on this one, the ISDF are typically offencive with fairly broad units...and the scions are defencive, with a few 'task specific' units that can really deal out the damage and excel in their jobs.

Its always going to be hard to balence.

[PhoeniX-FlamE]

[wow - a vet dicussion on bz2cp]

oh and ZA let me just make this a lil bit clearer

I know that in 1.2, those who mastered scions have become better then any ISDF player could ever hope to be.

only with a decent teams.. if u could test the "quality" of cmdrs between master scion cmdr then isdf master cmdr the scion will "out command" him
but he must have a decent team... scion commander cant do hoot without a decent team

[DarkFox]

Firty up, I disagree that scion scouts are better at opening dogfights. It was this was once, a long time ago, but since weapon-switching has become so common, ISDF scouts *cream* scion scouts at the start. That being said, scion scouts can flare the starting turrets, which strengthens them somewhat. BOTH scouts move slower in 1.3

Right, on to tech... ISDF tech is better for assaulting a base, and ISDF late-game have more powerful dogfighters (blast/chain/mortar easily beats arc/gauss, but blink means no winner, and ISDF player must retreat to get pods).

I have found from playing games as ISDF against scions that service is the key. This fits in well with phasers observation about scions 'blocking' ISDF ships to defend their base, forcing them to go back for pods. If you use a blast assault tank (which I often do), then you don't have to go back for pods, and can happily sit blasting the scion ships, MDMing them if they get too close. Before long you'll be taking out their base, and as soon as you're withing 250m of their rec+dower, they'll have nowhere to blink to.

Don't get me wrong, I agree with the premise that ISDF are more powerful until scions get blink, at which point scions are more powerful, I just DON'T think that scions with blink are unbeatable, I've done it too many times against pretty decent players to think that it's impossible. Try blast assault tanks with LOTS of service trucks, they work very well against blinking scions.

Finally, re: maulers, there are lots of weapons with very similar damage-to-buildings as maulers. Dual-MDM against towers from the Assault tank being one. Hornets against buildings (200% heat signature) do about the same damage as the maulers dual-fang, but from massive range, and finally SP+pummel cycled well compares quite nicely. The trouble is that none of these units are as tough or fast as maulers, but I think their range more than makes up for it.

[Avatar]

AND...

Maulers can leap on top of Bulldogs, rending and tearing into the soft biometal to feast on THE GOOEY SWEET THINGS INSIDE THEM AND....

<pant>



<pant>



sorry...  Maulers get me going...  

-Av-

[SilverB1rd]

one bug that needs some tweaking is the mauler bumping into terrain it almost impossible to get a mauler going at any speed unless the terrain is perfectly smooth.

[PhoeniX-FlamE]

well about the assult tank.. if u catch the scions unready u can easily win... but if they see you and its preaty big map (or quarry... which u see all middle field and u cant just get away with assult tank unseen

now, the moment u see assult tank advancing its the main target... and all the thugs will start killing it / service trucks..

also - i dont know how many ppl are accutly using blink as a weapon but i know i do..

if i see big unit with trail of trucks i blink underneath them blasting them away to the other side of the map - from there its easy to kill them or just kill the unserviced heavy unit

also, 2 maulers could kill an assult tank although the mdm is a real killer

and usualy, the scions dont lack scrap at that point... and i belive they will get all the loose scrap if its past middle

[Jwk the Hemp Monkey]

With emp-stream the Assault tank can be affectivly neutered. The other tank can come in....emp all the STs far far away, and then lay into it. Its nasty, its fast, and it works.