If Only....

[BZ FeebleEffort]

If Only 1.3 played as well for MP games as it did for MPI games

If Only

I've been playing a Bit of BZ 2 with my 10 year old son recently, and found it fun as hell to be playing side by side w/ him. He started slowly with some SP and quickly moved into MPI games...He found that alotta fun for a couple weeks and now somedays I come home and find him plunked down in front of the comuter yelling for his commander to build scavs and get TRTs positioned to take out the occasional base hover....

It's really fun seeing the joy of Battlezone fill his little eyes and fingers and brings to mind some of the great joy the game has given me over the past 5 years.

But sadly, it also highlights some of the current state of disrepiar and concern  1.3 has brought....He's 10 and even he says "Dad...why'd they take out hovering..that was fun!"

I can only say..."I don't know buddy..that's still a mystery".

Which brought me to last night........I was bored and didn't feeel like a 1.2 game, so for kicks I stated a 1.3 MPI game alone just to se one of the new maps and see what would break....well, to my (not so) suprised observations, the MPI game ran absolutely great for over and hour(the only glitch was the scavs getting caught up on a upgraded extractor)..I played alone and found it a absolutely great MPI game, I finally made it to the AI base and found virtually a forrest of gunspires and did not feel like another 45 minutes of hacking away at the forest, so I looked at the pretty colors and shut the game down for the night.....

Unfortuneatly the experience left me saddened by the feeling of "only if" 1.3 got all its bugged worked out...Only If, the human MP start game for me was playable(because for me..its not, the warp is impossible and the ground bump"physics" I still dislike.

I'm not here to "bash" 1.3 I just say, it's apitty the glaring errors INCLUDING but not limited to physics are not fixed, or at least in some stage of a fix process(or a willingness to listen to fix them might be enough of a positive step).


Well..whatever..just mildly venting about what coulda or shoulda been...

[Jwk the Hemp Monkey]

Thats why its a beta!

[Insanity]

I must congratulate u BZ FeebleEffort, that has to be one of the most reasonable vents I have heard for a while.  Now if only all our members could show such restraint :s

[Avatar]

*sigh*

Exactly so.  That's why this is a beta.  The MP Strat players generally don't really roll up their sleeves and dig into things like the MPI/Modders do, so the MPI/Modders have a clear advantage when it comes to getting things the way they want them.  There's also a lot of division when it comes to MP play as some of the desired changes were contrary to 'enhancements' that benefit MPI.  An example being the conflict around the Service Trucks.  Rather than the bad scene we had during the private beta, the extra options should have been praised, then the desired skill level for MP should have been noted and ready to roll when this beta started.

I'd have love to have seen/see now a dedicated MP Strat cadre form, modify, test and then present a list of reasonable changes and/or modified files for MP play.  The 'Alternate Recy' program was excellent, and hopefully such a thing will start up again if it's truly gone....  

As I've said before I was saddened to see most of the Strat players wander off rather than work 'inside the system' to get changes made.  Now, I'm not trying to lay any blame and I know there were personal issues with GSH during the private beta, but it wasn't the time to address balance, it was a bug hunt.  The balance changes made for Kencodeâ,,¢ or other reasons should have been noted, and the negative effects on gameplay documented, so a case could be laid for fixes.

See, what's needed now is just that.  Pretend this is a court case.  Ready your evidence, document the crime, and have a solution ready.  

As an example look to the changelog.  Someone should start a new changelog with a list of simple, easy to understand changes that need to be done.  The current prioritizing system in use on the board seems very nice, as the file could be sorted afterward with [Major Bug] at the top and [Minor Tweak] at the bottom....

Once done this file could be posted here, debated or discussed as needed, and honed to what's presented to GSH/Ken when/if they return.  Of course, everyone would have to respect the things carved in stone like 'no infinite hovering'...  And it would have to be civil AND virtually the whole Community would have to agree on the changes WITH evidence that they did...

I have a feeling that would make GSH tingle all the way down to his programming toes, to see a Community-backed list of desired changes awaiting his return.

-Av-

[technoid]

Just a slight semantic technicality, but ... all BZII network games are "MP" and does not exclude MPI as a separate entity from MP, but I know what is trying to be said.  

[Jabbapop]

That's a touching story. . I was amused at how you used your 10 year old son as an argument device for the old physics. I sorta miss the old physics too. And as the thread says: don't blame GSH aka Nathan Mates. Blame Ken Miller.

[Sponge]

I blame communism

[Jwk the Hemp Monkey]

The current prioritizing system in use on the board seems very nice, as the file could be sorted afterward with [Major Bug] at the top and [Minor Tweak] at the bottom....

- - _ - -

Nice to see you are giving credit to such a nice idea....

[Avatar]

Yes, thanks JWK for it, it's just what was needed!



Yes, it's VERY nice.  Perfect for cutting to the core...

Now we need it condensed into a running list, turned into a Sticky at the top of the board so that each point can be presented to the Dev's in an orderly manner.

-Av-

[TimeVirus]

The MP Strat players generally don't really roll up their sleeves and dig into things like the MPI/Modders do....

Still slamming the vets around here I see...

Vets were told repeatedly any bug not reproducable in a save game was not going to be addressed. That excludes their participation by definition, not by choice.

[aougli]

I'd have love to have seen/see now a dedicated MP Strat cadre form, modify, test and then present a list of reasonable changes and/or modified files for MP play.

We did well with FE Rev.C

Though as you say, modders and MPI players seem to have more tweaking and experimenting in their blood, and are willing and able to contribute more.  And, it seems, will get more out of any patch, perhaps not unreasonabley.

[Fried]

I mentioned many times about the warp and bump and it fell on death ears.I honestly thought it was just me that was having the problem.
We also tried to arrange several strat games and mostly it ended up with me and aoug only.

I may just try to sort out a vid of the warp that i encounter in multi strats and then maybe some others can see why i end up shouting FFS at my monitor.

Wardog it'd be nice if you used ur proper nick m8, After all the time youve spent playing bz2 and testing 1.3 over the years it just doesnt seem right calling you feebleeffort.

[BZ FeebleEffort]

As stated before, this was not a "rant" solely over physics, it is equally about the warp and genral issues with human vs human strat.

As I said manytimes when I was in closed beta testing...1.3 makes a fine MPI game, but not so great Human vs Human MP game.

[NukeDaddy]

My only concern is that FE is letting his 10 year old play online unsupervised.

[Avatar]

The MP Strat players generally don't really roll up their sleeves and dig into things like the MPI/Modders do....

Still slamming the vets around here I see...

Vets were told repeatedly any bug not reproducable in a save game was not going to be addressed. That excludes their participation by definition, not by choice.

 

First off TV, I don't slam anyone.  Unless they really go overboard I value everyone's input.  I've never told anyone that since they weren't MPI players they weren't 'real', or that because they weren't a modder they should shut up.  The 'Vets' OTOH basically told me and others that we weren't 'real' players because we weren't Strat players, and to shut up because we didn't know what we were talking about.  I found that insulting, short sighted, and very full of attitude.  It's all very well documented on the other board...

I also feel my statement is the truth, that MPI/Modders are more inclined to experiment with the files by nature than MP players are.  Very few are 'cross trainers' like you are.  WD as much as told me he wouldn't know where to start, although I said I was sure the Modders/MPI/'Unreal' players would have gladly helped with the under the hood action.

We desperately needed some MP players, regardless of their expertise, that did the same thing for MP that Greenheart did for SP/IA.  And you CAN save an MP game, Nate said that many times, it's just not something anyone but HE could make sense of.  Heck, for MP GSH was only to happy to join in and see for himself what was going on.  One night he kicked out a half-dozen sub-builds just for the group he was in MP with....  

No, I believe that some of the most knowledgable and valuable members allowed their pride to get in the way of the work.  They made their concern with gameplay and balance into a crusade and ticked GSH off to the point where he closed off any discussions of balance.  It all should have been handled much differently, much like the 'Alternate Recy' project here was.  Maybe then there wouldn't be so much bad attitude and hostility around here.

What if, indeed...


It's not too late.  Those complaining the most should be out there doing things like the 'Alternate Recy' program, where various test ships and scenarios were running.  I'd bet such organized experimentation would even draw GSH back into online sessions, as long as he wasn't being spit on the whole time....

-Av-