(Medium bug)Thermal Missiles(would be NICE if it was fixed!)

[Avatar]

First off and before anyone brings it up, I know better than to argue balance here, only intent...  I'm not saying the following is fun, or would enhance/detract from the game, or have in any way any opinion about what it does to the balance between Scions and ISDF.  I absolutely bow to DF in matters of Scion units.

darn lawyers...

Anyway...

The Jammer was intended as a radar blind spot, not a visual blind spot.  It screws up your radar, like RED, not your vision ala VIR.   Thus, it should stop you from all but VISUALLY telling your units to target an enemy.  If you are staring straight at something you should be able to use the reticule to tell your troops to attack it.

I suppose the Jammer could be considered to be much more than that, jamming everything including comm between units, but that would be taking it beyond it's original intent.  This might be acceptable for humans only strat with little or no reliance on AI attackers, but it makes IA, SP, & MPI virtually unplayable depending on the number of humans involved and the evil b*st*rd that created the map coughNATTYcough....

I'd have to look at the changelog to see what/when/why it was changed but I do remember complaints that it rendered anything in range virtually unattackable by AI, and Ken talking about tweaking it.  I don't know that he ever did, though.

-Av-

[DarkFox]

I suppose the Jammer could be considered to be much more than that, jamming everything including comm between units, but that would be taking it beyond it's original intent

As I said, I believe it's original intent *was* to stop voice commans. The single player campaign confirms this.

As for the problem that was spoken about, with Ken fixing this. I believe it was the fact that AI units failed to attack 'jammed' units even when they were within visual and weapon range. I believe this is what was fixed.

Finally, AI-hungry players (IA/MPI/whatever) can always use AI scouts to paint the jammer for them, whereupon it can be ordered destroyed, or even bombed, while it is being painted.

[Tempest Storm]

Yeah, I don't have THAT much of a problem with it as is. I just find it a bit annoying, but hey, the changes are worth it IMO.

It all works out in the end, and DF's idea does work. (TV's 51er race is rigged up in BZRAP to be able to handle an anti jammer weapon which can be real helpful...they are quite interesting guys )

[Avatar]

Well, I still feel that visual targeting should work but if DF says it's handleable that's good enough for me.  

However....

As I said, I believe it's original intent *was* to stop voice commands. The single player campaign confirms this..

Well, SP is a little strange at times, but I have to disagree that it shows this.  I just ran through that mission (2nd ISDF) in 1.0 and it originally jammed my radar only.  Shabby gave me the order to attack AFTER the first one was up and running for a few seconds and was jabbering away constantly when we destroyed the second one. (The woman DOES love to say "follow me", doesn't she?)  

I believe the communications jamming she was talking about was the same thing Manson was talking about in the previous mission, that between the Carrier and the ground forces, not between wingmen.

The INF file does support more capabilities, though...

UNKNOWN STRUCTURE

Interfering with radar
and targeting systems.

I believe this could be taken as more than just stopping radar and weapons targeting, as shutting down the targeting reticule completely.

I fired up a 1.3 map and was also unable to see any difference when an AI scout was right next to the Jammer.  It didn't paint anything for me, either visually or in the Attack command list.  AI forces brought into range attacked everything including the Jammer, although they saved it for last.  This was in the Editor, though and may not reflect what happens ingame.

I also must've come into range of the darn thing at the wrong time as my radar "ping" noise was on overdrive.  I hate that, it happens in BZ1's editor all too often...  

Natty is all too fond of those darn things, tucking them into holes in cliffs and in the center of bases.  Given how intent his AI is on keeping Base structures up....  brrrrrrr

-Av-

[DarkFox]

Here are the speach files of shabayev's voice getting jammed:
http://www.centralimmune.fsnet.co.uk/1.wav
http://www.centralimmune.fsnet.co.uk/2.wav
http://www.centralimmune.fsnet.co.uk/3.wav

wave 1: (upon finding the jammer, slightly broken voice)
'destroy that object, it's interfering with our communications"
wave 2 (while close to the jammer):
Completely incomprehensible jamming sound
wave 3: (after the jammer is destroyed)
"That's what was jamming our transmissions'

I can see what you're saying about it jamming broad-scale communications, but it's the stuttered voive with interference that suggests that the jammer effects battlefield units. You might be right though, it might be only hampering the wingmen's coms, not completely stopping them.

As for using scouts to 'paint', simply allow the scout to follow you. Upon coming into radar range of the jammer (about 500m), the scout will paint any enemy units, including turrets and guntowers, which you can then proceed to order attacked simply by using the reticule.
Were you trying to order a bomber/AI unit to attack a jammer that didn't have any guntowers, turrets, or enemy units nearby? If so, that would be impossible, since an AI scout does not paint it for you, but it does beg the question of why you don't just go and shoot it.

[technoid]

Can you guys list down concisely what else you'd like the jammer to do?  I agree that it's original intention was to jam comm signals, but that's not gonna work in a literal manner in MP as we know.  Hmm, just imagine it, the jammer interrupting Voice IP (Ventrilo, BC, TS), as well as chat lines, lol. That'd be nice. Couldn't we just extend it's jamming range too?

[Tempest Storm]

Might be interesting to have the Jammer work with different effectiveness as to how close you are to it. Inititally the range could be made larger to compensate. Near the begining of the radius your radar cuts out and direct vehicle targeting won't work. As you go further into the radius eventually it would work like it does now, and you need target painting to be done by a scout or whatever in order to proceed, and when its quite close to the jammer you can't do much at all. Initially, this would let you be able to protect key areas with the Jammer, and also let you make it hard for your enemy to make base assaults and the like as they close in on a Jammer.

[Avatar]

Oooooh...

While totally impossible that idea about it disrupting TS or other voice comms is totally EVIL...  I love it...  LOL...  

DF, I didn't notice those voice disruptions ingame, thanks for pointing them out.  She WAS still able to order me around, though...    (oh, Shabby!)

Yes, the Scout test I did was after my boys wiped out the surrounding units.  My main point of contention with the Jammer is that there's no way to direct the AI to destroy it, something very important to my usual GAIPS tactics.  (I'm the bait, my boys do the dirty work)

Still, I see your point as we did wipe the floor with the AI units even with a Jammer around.  It's definately not a game-stopper, just an annoyance.  A good old-fashioned herd of Sabres still gets the job done AND it does look cool.  I hate the fact that I can't build a GS on top of a Jammer now, btw..  That looked VERY cool.

-Av-

[Jwk the Hemp Monkey]

hmmm. How about a jammer does its stuff vs Radar, stops AI scouts from targeting stuff....but if you can paint and tell AI's to attack...this will mean bombers can attack...

so, either have a bomber saying '' i am sorry, i cannot attack Radar-shielded units) ''

but all other units can still attack, or

the bomber does attack, but its bomb randomly hits an area within 400m of the attacked target. The more jamming units, the more random the bomber hit is perhaps?

[DarkFox]

Or how about just leaving it as it is, since it's fine, and talking about this thermal missile issue, which is not fine?

[Ninja]

I personally like how the jammer works....

For me, This is what i do (or did, using In the Shadows mod(nice mod BTW))

I would wipe the jammer out, order a bombing raid, and get out of there, by that time, the jammer was back up, and my bomber was attacking the enemy.
Through you can do this with other AI units

But whats wrong with telling them to follow?

And the thermal thing wont stop the game.

[Zero Angel]

Umm, FUBAR means 'F'd Up Beyond All Recongition', amusing term if I say so myself. I dont think the krauts came up with that one, sounds like something an army guy would say.

[Jwk the Hemp Monkey]

yeah, we know, thats why it is labeled (medium bug).

Anyhow, is their any word from GSH or Ken or whoever it concerns on how/if/when this bug can be fixed?

[MowerMan]

FUBAR also meand Farked Up Beyond All Repair

A local radio station (WOUR) used to have FUBAR parties about 20 years ago.