@ GSH & KEN

[Avatar]

Recipie for failure:

In the normal course of a beta the bugs would be top priority, with changes to vehicle handling close behind.  I think we'd have been much better off with a specific timeline that spelled out WHEN each issue would be addressed.  Not specific dates, just something like FIRST bug hunting, THEN physics tweaking, THEN modding additions.

In a real beta the Dev Team would have someone specific to work on each field, that had mad skillz in that area.  In this case we have Network and Weapons/Particles covered, but nobody for AI, Pathing, and most importantly OVERALL GAMEPLAY.  Give both Nate and Ken credit for jumping into areas they had nothing to do with in the original game.

Neither of these happened because of the 'sideline' nature of the work.  Given that the whole thing is donated time and effort we didn't get the same structure that would have accompanied an official, new body of work.

Throw in Nathan's total lack of "warm fuzzies" and you've got a lot of conflicts, uncertanties, and bad feelings.

Now top the whole thing off with flames, personal attacks, and a Community where each player thinks they're the only ones who know what the game SHOULD be, and you've got an insurmountable mess.

Put on high flame, let simmer, then watch it all evaporate.

-Av-

[DarkFox]

I disagree av, I think you misunderstand the problem. Timelines and such wouldn't have helped at all, 1.3 was just fine without them. The reason 1.3 flopped was because the biggest problem from a very early stage was one that the devs outright refuesd to fix, and was a problem that is not in 1.2. All the analysis of what ifs and maybe on the organisation isn't really necessary when you get down to the one issue. It's a lot simpler than timelines and such.

I apologise to people for posting about this again and again, it's just about the most on-topic we get on these boards, and as such I post. I know nothing will change, I know posting about ti doesn't help, but this post isn't here to help of change anything, I'm just discussing the reason 1.3 failed (or failed so far, perhaps).

[BZ FeebleEffort]

I suppose, some are wondering "Isn't this about the place where BZ FE Steps in and joins in and Agrees with allthe points made by DarkFox and Mashes Nathan again?"


Naaaah....Like DF Said, the reasons why 1.3 crashed and burned have been spelled out and made clear....I play 1.2...I'm proud of it, the WHOLE Pandemic Team has reason to be proud of  that patch (even with its few minor flaws) still gives us the game we love and play still some near 4 years after its original release, Kudos to Ken, Wil, Brad, George (even Nathan) et al.

Long live 1.2/FE

[Jwk the Hemp Monkey]

Long live BZII! not a particular patch.

Only way its going to live is there is a patch that makes as many people happy as possiable.

[Avatar]

I disagree av, I think you misunderstand the problem. Timelines and such wouldn't have helped at all, 1.3 was just fine without them. The reason 1.3 flopped was because the biggest problem from a very early stage was one that the devs outright refuesd to fix, and was a problem that is not in 1.2.

I don't misunderstand, it's been done to death here.  Physics blah blah blah vehicle handling blah blah blah weapons balance etc..

Critical elements to the enjoyment of the game, yes.  I fully understand their importance and necessity, and what changing them does to the game.

I would agree that 1.3's version of them was totally disastrous IF the 1.3 patch were DONE.  It's NOT.  Well, Nathan's still working on it even if everything's pretty quiet...

Vehicle performance and even, to a great extent, gameplay, are not issues in a BETA TEST until the foundation is finished.  

IOW, the private Beta, up until the first Public Release of 1.3, should have been treated as the ALPHA test of a new game.  It shouldn't have hinged on any gameplay or physics issues while the bug hunt was ongoing.  It would have actually been quite proper to withhold any and all comments on physics and gameplay issues until such time as Nathan was satisfied that all possible bugs had been squashed and the engine as tuned as it was going to get.  In a beta for a new game that sort of instruction would have been given the testers so as to focus their work on the items currently being hammered on.

We should have:
Keep lists of gameplay/physics problems YES!
Prioritize those problems YES!
Playtest variations on our own YES!
Figure out what things SHOULD be set at YES!

But keep pounding non-bug issues after finding out that they weren't welcome NO!NO!NO    BIG mistake, especially with Nathan.

There's been some sort of sense of immediacy that I truly don't understand.  There was no need to panic, or make such a deal out of things up to and including the Public Beta.  All it did was add to Nathan's ire...

We're not supposed to post about things going on in the Private Beta but I'm going to state that right now Nathan is trying to restore 1.2 physics code (without flying) to 1.3.  I feel that's a mistake, cutting and pasting 'old' code into the engine, and some of the unintended results reinforce my feelings. It would have been better to finish the bug hunt, then have the MP players present a list of gameplay/physics changes needed to restore the fun to the game before the next public release.

*sigh*

That's what I meant about a proper timeline.  At the beginning Nathan should have said:

Private Beta
Stage 1: Bugs, AV's, exploits only.
Public Beta #1
Stage 2: Remaining Bugs and exploits, MP lag and network issues, gathering items for Stage 3.
Public Beta #2
Stage 3: Gameplay/performance tweaks and changes.  Balance issues.
Final Patch release

Had that been stated from the outset, well, it might not have made a difference but at least everyone would have known where they stood.  It could simply have been that the uncertainty of the amount of time that Nathan could donate made this sort of schedule impossible.



-Av-

[Black Hunter]

@Avatar, DarkFox...

Guys, please. Arguing who's right is pointless, because BOTH OF YOU are correct. The less-than-glamorous reputation of 1.3 isn't due to any one reason, it's because of a whole lot of contributing factors, many of which one of you or the other have already pointed out, that makes 1.3 all it is or isn't in the end.

[Jwk the Hemp Monkey]

actually that last disscussion has been the best i have read so far.

ooo! arguing...oh well.

Guess thats the pursuit of truth.

[Avatar]

AH, well, it's a testiment to the game that it inspires such strong feelings in all of us.  When all's said and done we do what we do for the love of the game...

*sniff*

I love you guys...

*sniff*

-Av-