This Community kills itself like no Other I know.

[Fishbone]

The question is, why bash it at all?
You can (and are supposed to) express what you do not like.

But why should you bash somebody elses work?
The only people who are doing that are people that never produce anything usefull.
Only those who do nothing, make no mistake.

[Loki]

Heh, I hardly see any games played nowadays except by some newbie clan called the ~OC~ or something like that and all they play is regular mpi.  

Heh  ~Öç~ has been a BZ 1 Clan since the game was first released , just FYI.  And yes they are newbies to BZ 2, mainly because we all thought the pre 1.3 versions sucked, alot of good ideas but physics weren't thought out very well.    Personally I will only play in a 1.3 game.  The other versions are too much like a hacked game.  I plan on making Mods and Maps for 1.3 so I hope the work continues on it.   I'm sure GSH has to a degree, the opinion that who cares what others think, he is doing it because he loves the game and wants to improve it.  Hopefully he doesnt put too much emphasis on the ravings of unappreciative people.  I know the amount of work involved and it is unreal.   1.3 has tremendous potential and with some tweaking I believe it will catch on and even bring the BZ 1 community here.

[Fried]

I played BZ1 for a year b4 playing bz2 some of the bz1 community has already come and stayed in BZ2 everyone has their own opinions on whats prefured, personally i prefure the freedom that 1.2 physics gives.

Dont get me wrong i loved BZ1 for what it was, a great single player but i found it seriously lacking compared to BZ2 and i certainly dont want BZ1 physics , even though i did rather like the thumper   .

Currently gameplay in strats is still superior in the 1.2 patch BZ2 is what it is, BZ2  "2" not a hacked version, infact if my memory serves me correct wasnt BZ1 the version that got hacked good n proper.

[PhoeniX-FlamE]

@ fish...

because at 1 point u get real sick of all the flamming, locking and deleteing posts

thats like what? 100th time im saying it... the "i know how u feel but i just dont care" didnt help as well...

and when u get angry u dont always control urself at 100%

and the flamming kept going from both sides

[GJC]

I'm afraid that whatever 1.3 could have been is over.  

Wrong. 1.3 is de facto a MPI mod. And the best one IMO. Just because of its playability. Give more maps and you add more popularity. I still hope FE will come to 1.3 one day.

There are two reasons for the little numbers of 1.3 games hosted online.
1st - the vets dont like it
2nd - noobs are too small numbers nowadays to make a big effect on the number of hosted games in general

Just ask yourself "who are the people hosting BZ2 games online".

The neurotic crusade of the patch makers against 1.2 physics definitely is what reduces 1.3 popularity but not so much because of vets do like hover so much but because of the big amount of time the patch makers spent to change physics (and other uncalled tweaks like removnig the editor from the game runtime). Read this bit of a quote from GSH in http://www.bzuniverse.com/~bz2cp/forum/forum.php?t=topic&fn=1&tn=589&page=8&tf=oldpand&lang=1en&uuid=7d65c7866e372b2a73cf699d1a0ba80b from 22-10-01

"To respond to a few things above: right now, I'd say the focus is on the really 'critical' bugs in the game-- some crashbugs, incompatabilities with DirectX 8, etc. I'd like to get a 1.21 out sooner, rather than later, so more wishlist stuff may be done after that."

GSH (and Ken?) completely left this wise decision and as a result 1.3 became a 2 1/2 years project although it was obvious from the beginning that everything beyond 1/2 year would never meet sufficient public anymore to justify the increased developing and testing input.

Stop these stupid accusations who splits the community and whatever. This community is already too small to get split! As PF and Aeg already stated, there is no split due to 1.3 since hardly anyone is playing it. After the release of 1.3pb a number of vets and fans checked it out for a few weeks and the result was that people decided to stick to 1.2 and FE. The _playing_ community is solid as a rock. There´s a split though: between the playing and the modding community. But thats just here on the boards and doesnt affect the playing community one bit.

[Fishbone]

there was always a split of the 'modders' and the 'vets'

remember when FE came out?
It was labeled a newbie mod and no 'vet' wanted to play it. why?
because rec-defense was set on default. Thats just too ridiculous.

'vets' complained that they were not involved in beta testing while we had plenty of high named 'vets' in our beta group that never gave any feedback.

Things got slightly better after TV took on RevB. However, TV is highly regarded in both 'vet' and 'modder' circles. So, in this sense, he saved the day

So I do agree with you GJC, until you exclude the modders from the playing community.
What do you think? When I mod BZ2 40 hours a week (next to my 40 hour week work in product development) I am not playing the game? Is my way of enjoying the game inferior to yours? Or better yet, only online gaming is the true gaming? all those 56kers that restrict themselves to offline play are not part of the gaming community? Thats BS. And you know it.

[pharoh]

I come back here every so often to see how things are going and it frankly makes me sick.
You get some guys that try to be the voice of reason and then you have a guy post right under him... "Hovering should be an option"
I really can't believe it.. If GSH and Ken do one lick of new code, they should get a friggin medel...

I don't care if this is inflamatory.. Frankly I'm ashamed of you guys.  Don't you realize what kind of a gift this is?  Don't you realize how much this could benefit you?  Can't you guys just DROP IT!!!

WRITE YOUR OWN GAME IF YOU DON't LIKE IT!!!   There is so much good here that you guys are tarnishing with this drivel.. Someone creates a thread to thank Ken and GSH and you guys end up asking for hovering... I just can't believe it.  

Sure people are playing FE and whatnot... They like the new races.. Do you realize that 1.3 gives you so many more options in that arena?? Do you realize how much your losing by trying to gain something that is so TRIVIAL.. Step back and look at what you are doing...

If you want to fly.. play 1.2 great have a good time... Please Please stop asking for it and bitching and complaining about 1.3...  

Its' amazing to me and I'm frankly disappointed and disgusted... I was hopeing to see some amazing things with 1.3... I certainly have seen that... Great job with the update.... But the most amazing thing I have seen here are the so incredibly ungratefull people that play this game.. And you can't be young kids cuz this game has been out awhile....

I just can't believe it... Disappointment in you guys can't even express how I feel... and if this is 1/10 of what GSH and Ken are feeling than I can't imagine them putting more effort into this project... Which is a crying shame when you guys could have had these guys getting excited about finishing and tweaking the patch.... Instead you have them leaving....

Just forget about it... let it go.... Appreciate what has been done because it is unprecedented ... To bad it is equally unapreciated by these few who virus this board and bring it down so well....

I know that not everyone has been this way.. I'm frankly talking about the people who frequent this board and are so intent on cutting off their nose despite thier face....  And to think they don't even realize what they are doing.. They just go on.. "It would be fair"  "It would be easy"  "IF some of us like it than why don't you listen to me?"
"Why am I so stupid that I can't realize when someone is doing something nice for me and I don't realize that I am alienating those very people and if I keep it up I will get these guys to do absolutely NOTHING on this project which will kill the amazing potential that 1.3 has if things were discussed which actually MATTERED to someone other than the few of us who like to hear ourselves talk and who get off on punching holes in someones project that they have been working on in their spare time for years which doesn't mean anything to me becuase I'm a nimrod and why don't you do it the way that I WANT it even though the developers said that it was a bug, but I don't care why don't you do it my way and and and
DROP DEAD ... get a life... go someplace else if you don't like it... Stop bringing up that it would be nice to... but I want... Why would you take it out becuase it so easy to put it in CRAP....
PLAY 1.2... Leave those guys alone... do us all a favor... please....

GEEZ this whole situation makes me mental....

you said all that to say we suck? if we suck and if you dont like this place just say if we suck and if you dont like this place. dont give a adress to the nation speech.

[Der Vampyr Engel]

Pharoh, he wasn't saying that we all suck, just a few people who complain about the lack of  hovering, besides I think Knarly Death shopuld be entitled to put his opinon across, after all we get the damn"vets" opinion all the time.

Personally, I don't mind how to learn flying, but if the developers don't want flying then it is up to them, not some damn cliques of people calling themselves vets, legally the game is not the vet's at all.

At first I got real mad about "certain people" on here saying that the game was made for then, not the developers, but now I laugh at them because they show how dumb they really are , So it's your game huh?

OK then why don't you program BZ3 by yourselves and don't bother to tell Acitvision or Pandemic if it's your game I am sure after a  brief litigation court case WHICH YOU WOULD LOSE you would soon be educated out of your populist, dumb half blind slogans like that.

We are very lucky that there has been a patch 1.3, because you see  Battlezone 2 is 4 years old now, most games from that time don't get updated patches anymore they are simply sold on to Sold Out and repacked as budget games or , in the US end up in the bargin bin basement in Walmart. Most of the other programmers at Pandemic have left the Battlezone project and have moved on to Starwars Battlefront , Star Wars as a brand name can bring in more money than BZ2 ever will , plus more prestige so Ken and Nathan don't have to take the crap they get on here. Why take it ? after all they can get more money and apprecaiton from a wider gaming public with Star Wars Battlefront than waste time with this "community" which is so small  anyway.

They did this patch because they loved BZ2 and they wanted to see the game become the full vision of the game the team orginally intended in the 1st place. Anyone don't like it you know where you can go, You have 1.2, play that instead if you like hovering, real simple, but stop slagging off other people's work because let's face it none of us would be here if the wasn't a Battlezone series in the first place.

As for this crap about newbies and vets well that might be a good thing to play 1.3 online, I played 1.2 and  F.E multiplayer, hosting it and get nothing but assholes who think they can just march in and take over and bark out their order's

Plenty of times have I nearly come to losing MPI and Strat games because these so called vet's can't even understand about defending the base while it get's built , they run of seeking glory and you are alway's there having to crank out stupid service pods because these brain deads get shot up or they lose their damn ship before you have any decent defenses up.

It would be nice to see more games in 1.3 and I think when the patch goes from beta to final you will see more people on them, possibly  new people from games like the Battlefield 1942 seires or Chrome or Breed or Halo or even Star Wars Battlefront.

If you wish to critise the 1.3 patch, do so showing some respect, and not in the offensive manner some critize on here.

One thing I do agree with thugh, this argument has been chewed over a million times on here and both sides won't chagne their opinions I suspect, but those who like to really flame against 1.3  remember this :

1) The developers ain't getting paid to develop this patch for this game
2) This game is old  
3) The developers can make more money and get better appreciation orking on other games
4) How would you like it if someone comes along and tells you first your life works is for them, not you and that your improvements stink

[DarkFox]

DVE - if I made a clay pot then sold it to you, whose clay pot would it be?

[Avatar]

No, it's more like they made a clay pot...

You bought it...

They said "we forgot to give you a lid for it"...

You download "Lid 1.1"...

Then they said "we forgot the seal for the lid"...

You download "Lid 1.2"...

Then, a year later, someone who originally worked on the pot offers to paint the clay pot for you free of charge, but only the way THEY want it painted.  Unfortunately they paint it in colors you hate, but then again what the hey, it was a free paint job...

Luckily they used water colors and you could go back to pot + Lid 1.2, while others seemed to like the pot with the free paint job...

Meanwhile, back at the Oasis, the Arabs are eating their dates...

-Av-

[DarkFox]

Yeah yeah, it's nice of them doing the patch etc etc... Removed the exp. Rec and air damage, nasty people blah blah blah, can't be arsed to discuss that one again.

Makes no difference at all, it's still my pot. DVE seems to have a problem with people who bought the game off the developers claiming that it's their game, when it obviously is.

[† Trinity †]

Heh  ~Öç~ has been a BZ 1 Clan since the game was first released.

Which game? Not BZ1.

[MowerMan]

Mower rolls up the pot and smokes it!!!

Blech!  Taste like 1.3!!!


(he he he 'tis a joke)

[Tempest Storm]

Makes no difference at all, it's still my pot. DVE seems to have a problem with people who bought the game off the developers claiming that it's their game, when it obviously is.

Right, we do own the game. But its them who owns the code. There just needs to be some compromise inbetween those two that fails to form every time its tried...

[Der Vampyr Engel]

I will throw the same question back st you Dark Fox, if you have the orginal design for the clay pot, but you sold copies and your customer said "Hey, the orginal design is mine because I got a copy of , Who's design is it really?

Especially if the customer then decides to make different types of versions you didn't want of that claypot you designed  and make claims that it is his design because he bought a copy tell me is it his design?

OK to answer your question the claypot would be mine and I would have certain rights because I bought that copy of the claypot you designed for it to work properly and for free services and warranty for 3 months to a 1 year depending on the warranty.

But the design is yours, not mine and you are entitled to change the design of that product you made n obody else is unless you give them the permission to.

Answering Avatar, yes you have the clay pot and that copy is yours but as I said, they have obligations to their customer who bought in good faith the pot to make sure that it :
1) Works as it is meant to work as the designer said it would work
2) to provide free service and updates and even a replacement of that pot if it doesn't work.
3) To carry out good customer service and to inform the customer of changes and to inform the customer of changes


Now, unless you are totally daft or delberately wish for the product not to sell, you would make sure that your changes to the product are agreable to most of  your customers, not just a few who say they are the "veterans" of your product so you should only cater for their needs, yes listen to their views but at the end of the  day, if you are satisfied with most other customers viewsthen you go with the oher custoers and at the end of the day the final decision is yours. You see, companies, individuals and anyone else who has a product selling has a copyright on of their orginal desgin (unless they are dumb)so in effect, they can offer you a year later offer you a free paint job on the pot and give you colours you hate. Anyone doing that though would be pretty arogant and stupid to do that but legallly that is exactly what can be done.

But then, they do that, then they lose customers, so unless you really want to lose customers to the opposition you don't do that, however we are not talking about pot's here we are talking about games and games are intellectual property of whoever owns the copyright.  Now I have stated this before and I am afraid that is an immoveable fact in international law.

Wehn you bought the game, apart from the fact that Activision and Pandemic should make sure the copy of Battlezone  and Battlezone 2 you bought should work properly on your computer and it should be patched to that effect, changes to the gamelay that the developers ,designers e.tc they have absoltue rights to, they will of course give  little leway  and listen to the players advice and implement those changes after all we are all customers and we have a right to be heard but they have ultimate rights to change gameplay and design.

There is a reason why rappers try to avoid using other groups music  unlike what they use to do in the past.

And you own a copy of the game. Not the game