1.3 Avenger Bug (Moderate)

[Wingflier]

When you play a Deathmatch, put the AI on level 3, and add some bots, lets just say, in some cases, you're in for tough competition...especially if you pit all the bots against you...

This fact is especially true when going up against level 3 AI Avengers (who by default have shadowers...)

Let me give you a re-enactment of the scenario....
"Oh crap, a msl. scout"...pop, pop, pop, pop, bam, bam, bam, bam *eject*....

I mean, the AI controlled msl. scouts, when on level 3 in a DeathMatch will utterly rip you apart.

This is where the problem comes into play:

On the strategy maps, even if you set your combat AI to level 3 (default), avengers do not even come CLOSE to being able to shoot shadowers as fast as they can in DeathMatch....

Why?  This HAS to be a bug.

Why should we prevent the computers from achieving any other level than their maximum??  

The AI is already too easy to destroy...

Why would I even build a ship when I know it was specifically designed to not perform to its full ability?

Please fix this Avenger Msl. Scout bug.

Avengers should be able to reach their full potential in DeathMatch and Strategy mode...not be hindered...

Thanks,
Adam

[Bull Dog]

Sheesh.  One problem you'd be looking at is that the DM vehicle probably all have larger image signitures.  I.E. shad lock on faster.  Also you can dodge Shads in a Scout.

[Spawn]

lol, avengers are very effective in strat, especially verses scion.
all 1.3 ai is suped up, a bit too much by some standards...

[PhoeniX-FlamE]

or just dodge them head to head with any other unit and blast the hoot out of em  

[Wingflier]

If Avengers are so good in strategy, then how come I never see them used in 1.3??  I don't remember them used in 1.2 much for that matter...

lol, avengers are very effective in strat, especially verses scion.
all 1.3 ai is suped up, a bit too much by some standards...

Deflection is a pretty good counter...it is a GREAT counter when the msl. scouts are purposely designed to not perform to their top functionality.

Here is my theory:
Every AI controlled ship SHOULD be as good as every human controlled ship.  Why shouldn't it be?  You pay the same amount for both...

There is only one type of ship in BZ2 (other than the avenger) that is purposely made to not be as good as it can possibly be, and that is the turret.
It is okay, however, for the turret to not perform to it's full potential because:  The AI controlled turret performs just as good, if not better, than any human could perform while controlling a turret...
It hardly misses in 1.3....
So...It is ok for a turret not to perform to it's full potential (meaning not turn as fast as possible) because it is a balance issue and because humans are only as good as the AI could be in this situation.

Now:  Lets talk about the Avenger.  There is NO reason that the Avenger should not be able to perform at it's full potential...here's why:

Even at it's full potential (meaning it can shoot shadowers as fast as possible) it is still no match for a human controlled Avenger.

Why should this be?  You pay the same 45 scrap for the AI controlled Avenger as you do for the Human controlled Avenger.  It's not fair to ANYBODY that the AI controlled Avenger is specifically designed to not fire as fast as it possibly can.

I don't know how you can disagree with this argument....

Adam

[APCs r evil]

Deflection is a pretty good counter...it is a GREAT counter when the msl. scouts are purposely designed to not perform to their top functionality.

Here is my theory:
Every AI controlled ship SHOULD be as good as every human controlled ship.  Why shouldn't it be?  You pay the same amount for both...

(1) Deflection is not a pretty good counter, it's an acceptable counter. Basically Scions don't have a Shield that can really stop the Shadower's damage like Absorbtion can stop Blast's.

(2) To my knowledge this is impossible with today's computers, the Brain can do a hootwad more than any of today's computers. The Brain has an unlimited memory capacity(I think..), the brain can solve it's problems without having to resort to a third partie's solution to said problem.. bah, anyway the point is the BZ2 AI could never be as effective as a player.

[Spawn]

i really want to slap you wingflinger.
oh, brain has a limited capacity, its just so much you dont need to worry about it.  Avengers ARE used, they have good ai, and can assist a player well.  But, they are ineffective against a chain empty, so humans dont commonly pilot them.  If you want to make ai better, YOU work with units, change odf settings, and make them better dogfighters.  Its even documented all the little tweaks and what they do, look for it.

[BZZERKER]

Tell you what Wing, how bout we have ZA whip up a bunch of  odf's to simulate how bad PF would whip your as*  only it would be the AI. Then you would see exactly how foolish the changes your asking for really are.

[Avatar]

Just how good the AI should perform is the generic problem, turrets and Avengers are specific cases of it.  It's a gulf that divides the player types, and there's no easy answer.  It breaks down into:

There are players, myself among them, that feel the AI is a big part of what the game is all about.  Too much of the game engine is wrapped around the AI for them to be considered a minor part of overall gameplay.  They are, as far as the code goes, the main focus of the game unlike games like Tribes or Quake where the Humans are the main focus and AI is used only for simple things like Turrets.   "Wrangling" the AI, getting them to do what you want them to do and making them as effective as possible, is what the game is about. For players who feel this way effective AI is a good thing, as long as they're beatable and not 'Godlike'.

Other players consider even the best AI to be too limited and instead focus on the Humans playing.  They feel the AI should be a minimal part of the game and not able to dominate human players.   Most of the major battling is done by human controlled ships and the AI serve mainly as minor backup and reserve ships.  For players who feel this way effective AI is annoying and takes away from the fun of the game.

Once some of the coding bugs were fixed some of the AI controlled units got a little too 'Godlike', such as the Treaded Rocket Tanks and Turrets.  I don't think it's the AI as much as the weapons, but it really boils down to what the Player thinks the AI should be capable of.

So, for one side BZ is Chess, for the other it's more like Poker.     I don't think you'll ever get the two sides to agree, which is why things like the 'Alternate Recy' options have been created.  I've always felt it important to give the players the options needed to make the game play the way they want it to.

[PhoeniX-FlamE]

wing,

If Avengers are so good in strategy, then how come I never see them used in 1.3?? I don't remember them used in 1.2 much for that matter...

err, they are 'ok', good vrs scions but still - rarly used, and they are low tech, so I dont see why they should be any better

Deflection is a pretty good counter...it is a GREAT counter when the msl. scouts are purposely designed to not perform to their top functionality.

get deflection and ur dead anyways, if not by shads then by blast / laser
and still, as apcs said

(1) Deflection is not a pretty good counter, it's an acceptable counter. Basically Scions don't have a Shield that can really stop the Shadower's damage like Absorbtion can stop Blast's.

avengers will be used alot in 1.3 strats, I can already see it but still, if you aint there to save their butt they are dead...

Av, I realy understand what your saying but as one of the sides (and because its in my personality it seems) I gotta disagree, if you compare bz2 to chess then the game will need 2 players
I do agree though, that AI in 1.2 is completely hootty and in 1.3 I would maybe make it abit dumber yet smarter in a way --> a little less accurate but knows how to use both its weapons and prephes knows when and how to run (and if its in a group the others will be able to cover it) making them quite handy in a group without you being there to save their butt
but - since it seems impossiable id rather them quite dumb,

AI though, is still used, rckt tanks[usualy by smart cmdrs], mtr bikes and rarly - sp tanks (thast 1.2 though)
if you make the AI as good as a human its quite a problem, which human? a vet? a 'super-vet'? a 'newb'? which human? you do relize it will be quite hard to decide what skill-level human, and whats the point in that? if lets say I got a lower skill-level then the AI what would make me give him a ship? the AI does better, why should I waste the scrap on a ship for the player?


if you make the AI better then humans whats the point for humans?

[SkyNET]

if you make the AI better then humans whats the point for humans?

Truest statement ever. I would rather play against an adaptive enemy then a predictable computer.

[Wingflier]

if you make the AI as good as a human its quite a problem, which human? a vet? a 'super-vet'? a 'newb'? which human? you do relize it will be quite hard to decide what skill-level human, and whats the point in that? if lets say I got a lower skill-level then the AI what would make me give him a ship? the AI does better, why should I waste the scrap on a ship for the player?


if you make the AI better then humans whats the point for humans?

PhoeniX-FlamE wrote:
if you make the AI better then humans whats the point for humans?


Truest statement ever. I would rather play against an adaptive enemy then a predictable computer.

Come on guys!!

You are not thinking logically here!  Even if we made every AI ship as good as it could possibly be it would still be NO MATCH for a human controlled ship.
This is not Counter-Strike, there are no headshots...every shot does the same damage and humans are always going to be faster, smarter, and more accurate...not to mention the fact that we can run from the battle.

It's an easy solution, make all the AI as good as you can possibly make them...because....like I said above, you pay the same scrap for both...why should humans be extremely more effective than the AI??

That's an injustice in itself...it's not fair to anybody...

Please stop arguing this topic with statements like:  "Why would you ever give a human a ship if the computers were better than the humans."
This is ridiculous and obviously a notion that was not very well thought out....

Bots will never Be As Good As Humans(With the one exception of the turret)
...there is no argument here.

[PhoeniX-FlamE]

lol! then you have absoultly no idea how good AI can be

once you know how good AI can be we can continue to discuss this but since you have no idea, theres no point in arguing

[Wingflier]

Phoenix!

I do have an idea of how good the AI can be!

You obviously have no idea how good the AI can not be.

Let me spell it out for you:

It Does Not Matter How Long You Spend Working On The AI...Its Skills Will Never Even Closely Match The Skills Of A Human.
(With the one exception of the turret and guntowers)

This is why we need to make them the best we can make them, and keep it at that.

This is what this whole topic is about:

The Avenger AI do not shoot shadowers as fast as they possibly can and thus do not reach their full potential.  (Which, let me remind you again, is far less than a human's full potential.)

However:  You pay the same amount of scrap for both the human controlled Avenger and the AI Avenger.  It's not fair or right.  And it needs to be changed.

Period.

[Spawn]

lol, ai can be made much more powerful.
you dont even see that your a hippocrit.  you said

Every AI controlled ship SHOULD be as good as every human controlled ship. Why shouldn't it be? You pay the same amount for both...

but immeadiately after you said

Bots will never Be As Good As Humans

you make no sense!!  and bots CAN be made better than a human.  If you would look into it a bit, you would find ztv, and see how powerful ai can become, and then realize that the accuracy isnt even perfect yet.
And there are headshots, just hold still for a bit and ill swipe yout tank