Balance (for APCs)

[PhoeniX-FlamE]

I cant belive what I'm reading here guys...

e used in strats only after agreeding that spire walk is not allowed.

?
scions get 1 / 2 spires by the time ISDF get a tank out


you guys are making scions gods which makes me think you've *never* seen a full-teched scions loose (exept vs a rush)
I used to be like that too - "when scions gets blink they win"
but I found a way to kill them, and its so easy for me now too

[Fried]

Me and aoug actually had a couple of guys spire walk against us on Mars, damn fools didnt
bother to put any defence in their base though, as u can imagine i went totally agresive on
their base-game over.
That was about the lamest rush i ever did, however i considered the spire walk to be totally lame
also, so i balanced it up

[spAce]

you guys are making scions gods which makes me think you've *never* seen a full-teched scions loose (exept vs a rush)
I used to be like that too - "when scions gets blink they win"
but I found a way to kill them, and its so easy for me now too

Remember that you are perhaps the best commander that there is Booby and things might look different from your perspective. I know that it is possible to stop full teched scions, but i think that there isnt so many guys around that can do it so easily. And i have never suggested to touch spire balance; if i think about the odf contents, there is no way to setup decent tweaking.

ZST brought scions closer to isdf, but 1.3 has greater problems with general race balance.

[APCs r evil]

We should really get a test game going guys. (It would probably be best to do it in 1.3 though, since that is where any changes made here are designed to work in.)

And I can say with quite a bit of certainty that with the new and improved Jammers, PF's load of Rocket Tanks technique would get worn down to scrap over a fairly short period of time. Especially so if the Scion thugs know how to handle Rocket Tanks, and if the Scion commander has an Archer or two sitting pretty on the Dower. I also like to keep a spare Mauler around, just in case some heavy units make it through the Jammers, Archers, Spires and any Guardians laying about. Even though Jammers can be countered with an AI Scout, you can still only order AI attack one or two things. Then of course there is the option of a Warrior with Quill EMP and Blink, morphing into assault mode, Blinking in front of a Rocket Tank, EMP Streaming it so it can't fire, and switching weapons with Fang, then Blinking out before the other Rocket Tanks can fire.

[spAce]

..shadowers can chase a blinker even if he blinked back to base, the shads will follow him all the way to base --> in a big enough group you can shoot enough shads to make the ship explode in its base after blinking - and thats how ISDF defeat full-teched scions

Shadowers only travel 800 meters so that might happen only on small maps. It's quite easy to pick blinking route that has blocking obstacles that ruin shadowers path.

We should really get a test game going guys.

Yes !

[Spawn]

800m is often long enough, and if its an experienced blinker he wont die ever

[Angelwing]

I've played lots of games as Scion and i've never died from shads that way. Ever. You have to be playing a really flat map for that to be effective

Although yeah in 1.3 scions are a little improved somewhat automatically, both in that Jammers are much more useful (although so is the RED field) and that you obviously arn't able to hover (which affected ISDF a lot more as their ships were far more agile), so yeah we'd need a couple games to test these things.

[Avatar]

I'd like to bring up one of the biggest balance changes that 1.3 introduced, that of the ISDF GT Plasma, as an example of how difficult 1.3 balancing can be.

In response to 'GT wobble killing' complaints Ken introduced a major 'push' to the GT Plasma in an early 1.3 build.  This ground damage effect has the side effect of keeping most Scion weapons far enough from the GT to render them useless, as most effective Scion 'building killers' are close range weapons.  This greatly reduced the effectiveness of a single Mauler, or a squad of Warriors, as they were thrown around and pushed back before they could reach the GT.

Now, on the plus side, later 1.3 builds made it so those same Warriors could be made to morph BEFORE engaging the GT's, greatly increasing their chances of doing damage.  Things like RD's tweaks help space the AI apart a bit more, overcoming some of the problems these units experience having to path using BZ2's "form a line!!" pathing.  Finally, the Titan now engages from range, which also helps them against GT's.  Throw in Acid Cloud in Archers and those poor widdle Scions now have some serious threats to GT's.  One lousy Archer on a hill can really drive you nuts...  and sitting behind some GS's with a Service Truck or two makes them really annoying.

1.3 is now a whole different game.  Totally rebalancing would require a lot of players and a final authority for reviewing changes, and I don't see that happening.  It IS possible to try to balance back to 1.2's performance, so I'd definately urge using it as the guide for changes...

-Av-

[Spawn]

its kinda suprising how easily i can wobble kill a guntower compared then...

[APCs r evil]

Gun Towers are little more than slow hoot repellant. That's about it. And the GS can't throw out nearly as much damage as a GT, so the two embody the question, "Quantity or quality?"

Now for the weaknesses, the Gun Tower is easy to dodge, but very powerful. This gives them a weakness against smaller and faster units. This is easily countered by either Human intervention or a Rocket Tank with Shadower sitting pretty right next to it. But since Shadowers don't work against VIR, Human intervention is the only option, should the enemy have VIR.

The Gun Spire on the other hand is very accurate, good against fast units, but quite weak against even Light armored units. This is counterable via Human intervention, a Gauss Guardian sitting pretty right next to it, or an Archer hammering the Heavy armored units from far behind the Spire.

Now, based on that, it seems like the Gun Tower is weaker, but keep in mind that each Tower only costs 50 scrap, meaning you can build them with only one pool.

The Gun Spire may seem more powerful, but don't forget each one costs 75 scrap, meaning you need at least two pools to make one. Three pools to make them at a decent rate. AND the Gun Spire has a built-in weakness, the Lung. Which makes each Spire nearly useless unless there is something or someone watching over that little blindspot. This is the part where rotating the buildings comes in handy, so each Spire's Lung is facing another Spire. Thus allowing the Spires to cover each other.

[EternalDamned]

Both GT's and GS's have their strengths and weaknesses. I think it's a nice balance between them, but I would like to see a cheaper variant for scions so with 1 pool they aren't totally defensless. Maybe a sonic spire that costs 50-60 scrap. obviously with a range of only 150m. And a more expensive guntower for ISDF with combat blaster. That way ISDF wouldn't be easily defeated by a human in a morphed sonic warrior just blowing all it's shots away while a scion scout comes in and burns it to the ground. I think that would keep the balance between the two and make it more challenging when it comes time for the base assaults. Of course I like games that take several hours 

[Sonic]

Now for the weaknesses, the Gun Tower is easy to dodge, but very powerful. This gives them a weakness against smaller and faster units. This is easily countered by either Human intervention or a Rocket Tank with Shadower sitting pretty right next to it. But since Shadowers don't work against VIR, Human intervention is the only option, should the enemy have VIR.

I dunno, I think the suprise of having your Rocket Tank only have Hornets could be funny.  Especially if they weren't expecting it. :p

[APCs r evil]

Yes that is a nasty surpirse. Almost guarantees a dead enemy. 

But thermal missiles don't work against VIR either.

[Spawn]

apc has dont that to me a number of times...

[Angelwing]

I've tried assault-only rocket tanks a number of times but in the end it usually just sits there spazzing out of control and not doing anything. a Hornet-only rkt tank would be so useful sitting on the bay

I don't get why it dosent lock units with VIR on though (or more importantly why VIR seems to hide the heat signature AND image signature of a craft)

@ED, I don't think throwing MORE units into the fray is a great idea for balance. Just build turrets for that