Balance - since I missed the last topic

[APCs r evil]

Could you better describe how Blink is abused? Maybe it's just me here but, I thought using a weapon to it's highest potential was a good thing.

[Red Devil]

See first post in thread.

[GreenHeart]

P.S. Does anyone else think the Guardian scrap cost should be restored to 45?

well the isdf Rattler also costs 40 so both races can deploy defenses at the same amount of time & cost.

[Spawn]

but the scion one is more powerful

[Avatar]

Come on...  I'm trying to be quiet here... but I keep running into points...

This point is being able to make a turret or two out of the scrap of your enemies when you have NO pools, one smoking Scavenger, and a tiny bit of luck before the next attack wave comes.  A 45 scrap Guardian means you have to have at least one pool, they can't be made from loose.

This is the same reason I hate BZ2 Scavs being UN snipeable.  In BZ1 you ALWAYS had a chance while your Recy lived and you had ammo in your sniper rifle.  For me a big part of the fun of BZ is the fact that the underdog can come back from the brink and give you a good fight.

-Av they guy who doesn't play Strat but can't shut up-

[Spawn]

sniping scavs in bz2 would be shockingly easy, especially when they sit in the field doing nothing
also at the very beginning of the game, your ship dies then you can snipe an enemy scav and cap their base pool.
could be interesting with hoverscavs though

[APCs r evil]

I have yet to meet ANYONE who would build a Guardian instead of a Scavenger or two when they have no pools. Even if I have my slots filled with Scavengers, if I lose all my pools I build two more.

The Guadian is FAR more powerful than the Turret, not just because of the health though.

[ISDF Turret]
maxHealth = 2500
maxAmmo = 3000
armorClass = L

{Assault Minigun}150m range
ammoCost = 2
damageValue(N) = 15 //300 damage per second
damageValue(L) = 12  //240 damage per second
damageValue(H) = 8 //160 damage per second

damageValue(S) = 12
damageValue(D) = 8
damageValue(A) = 15

{Assault Chain Gun} 120m range
ammoCost = 2.5
damageValue(N) = 15 //300 damage per second
damageValue(L) = 13.5 //270 damage per second
damageValue(H) = 12.5 //250 damage per second

damageValue(S) = 13.5
damageValue(D) = 10 //100 damage per second
damageValue(A) = 15

[Scion Guardian]
maxHealth = 2750
maxAmmo = 3000
armorClass = L

{Ion Gun II} 150m range
ammoCost = 3
damageValue(N) = 50 //500 damage per second
damageValue(L) = 30 //300 damage per second
damageValue(H) = 10 // 100 damage per second

damageValue(S) = 30
damageValue(D) = 50
damageValue(A) = 10

{Assault Gauss Gun} range 180m, near instant hit
ammoCost = 75
damageValue(N) = 200 //200 damage per second, 400 damage per hit
damageValue(L) = 190 //190 damage per second, 370 damage per hit
damageValue(H) = 160 //160 damage per second, 320 damage per hit

damageValue(S) = 180 //180 damage per second, 360 damage per hit
damageValue(D) = 140 //140 damage per second, 240 damage per hit
damageValue(A) = 200

As you can see, the primary Guardian weapons are far more powerful than the ISDF's primary Turret guns. So you can see that Guardians with Gauss Gun are basically miniature, mobile Gun Spires with no radar signature that can be crammed by the handful into narrow spaces. Hell it says right in the changelog that changing the cost could be a mistake,

- Reduced scrap cost of the Scion Guardian from 45 to 40, allowing it
to be built without any Extractors.  This may be a mistake.  [Ken]

Changed in 1.21 beta 12.

[DarkFox]

The guardian should be the same price as the rattler.

Why?
Simple - because the guardian does more damage (500 damage/second), but the ISDF scout has more health, meaning ISDF scouts die to scion turrets in about the same time as scion scouts die to ISDF turrets.

Against heavier armour, the guardian is less effective. Against scouts, it's about the same (due to the 1800health on the ISDF scout vs the 1200/900 on the drone).

[APCs r evil]

Well yes but, can we really base this on scouts alone? Even though they are the units that are most affected by turrets.

[Red Devil]

 I don't think DPS can be based solely on firepower.  Accuracy, fire rate, ranging of opposing units, mobility, and location also have to be factored in, as well as the the hull strengths.

Been working on an idea to put all these factors in a formula.  Something like this:

Give a weight to each factor, with no factor's value being more than 2, then divide by the total number of factors and you should arrive at 1.0.  If it's over or under, then it's not balanced.  Still a rough idea and still working on it, but it's a start.

[DarkFox]

Well yes but, can we really base this on scouts alone? Even though they are the units that are most affected by turrets.

I wasn't basing it on scouts alone. I mentioned the fact that ISDF turrets are effective against heavy armour, even with their stock minigun, whereas scion turrets are incredibly weak against heavy armour.

Sure, someone is going to mention that guardians do more damage per second to tanks than rattlers do to warriors. While this is true, consider the mortar vs edging with iongun, and it's pretty clear that that's balanced too.

[APCs r evil]

I guess you have a point there.

Now, what about the turning speed?

[Red Devil]

 Why engage Guardians/Turrets at all?   Easy enough to flood Guardians with cheap, quickly-built, heavily-armored Scavengers/Harvesters to draw thier fire while you nail them, take the pool and have reserve Scavs to gather the loose, not to mention waste the opposition's ammo and time killing the Scavs, plus the time it takes to go reload.

[APCs r evil]

You can tell them to Hold to make them re-target.

[deadscion]

The people holding this discussion act as if they don't like BZ2 at all.

This needs changed, that is bad and I never liked it.

Soon enough every single issue possible will be discussed and how it will never be right unless it is changed.

Why do you even bother to play the game if you don't like it?

Meanwhile contrary disagreements to those proposed changes occasionally pop up because those things you want to change are enjoyed ---as is---  by the next player.

I will say this again, No Such Thing as a Perfect Game.

You will never come close to an agreement on balance, unless it is a very small group, and THAT, gentlemen, never properly represents most players.