Balance - since I missed the last topic

[Spawn]

@ds: go away.

didnt gaurdians originally cost 45 because they were meant to be as strong as an upgraded turret?  scions didnt have gauss back then, so gaurdians were either emp or ion2

[deadscion]

@ds: go away.

didnt gaurdians originally cost 45 because they were meant to be as strong as an upgraded turret?  scions didnt have gauss back then, so gaurdians were either emp or ion2

This is not the kind of person who should be representing other players.

[Spawn]

if you want to act like an asshole then feel free to, just do it somewehre else

[Red Devil]

 Yeah, he's a brat, but a smart one.  He doesn't represent BZ2, but he is a part of it.  Good point on the Guardian, Spawn.  Good points too, DS.

As for BZ2, it's more like a love/hate relationship:  It both exhilirates and infuriates us.  Drives ya crazy sometimes, but you can't stay away from it.  Kinda like some women I've known.  (don't say it Spawn)

If you tell them to hold and you get out of range, they reacquire.

[Avatar]

I don't think DPS can be based solely on firepower.Ã,  Accuracy, fire rate, ranging of opposing units, mobility, and location also have to be factored in, as well as the the hull strengths.

Been working on an idea to put all these factors in a formula.Ã,  Something like this:

Give a weight to each factor, with no factor's value being more than 2, then divide by the total number of factors and you should arrive at 1.0.Ã,  If it's over or under, then it's not balanced.Ã,  Still a rough idea and still working on it, but it's a start.

I've been toying with such a thing also, only as part of an ODF maker.  For a ship it'd automatically adjust things based on ratios taken from the rest of the existing odf's for a race.

For instance, to make a new tank you'd start with a tank template.  If you up the hull it'd lower the speeds automatically based on the values set for the other Heavy armor units... or ratios you've previously set.

I haven't figured out just exactly what to put into the mix, though...  right now it's more of a gut feeling than actual working code...

-Av-

[APCs r evil]

Sounds to me like that would turn everything into an ISDF (Or Scion, I suppose.) clone.

[Spawn]

the biggest advantage of more speed is that you can decide when to and when not to fight, the enemy would have no suck choice
that and you can warp better

[Avatar]

No, it's race-oriented for creating a new race.

Still, a lot of balance doesn't go by the numbers. Ã, Take 'blink' for a fresh example, how do you quantitize how it affects the battle?

-Av-

[Spawn]

with good pilots, they dont need to build new ships ever
figure scions get about three extra pools for this

but if they start dying...

[Lizard]

I've been toying with such a thing also, only as part of an ODF maker.Ã,  For a ship it'd automatically adjust things based on ratios taken from the rest of the existing odf's for a race.

For instance, to make a new tank you'd start with a tank template.Ã,  If you up the hull it'd lower the speeds automatically based on the values set for the other Heavy armor units... or ratios you've previously set.

I haven't figured out just exactly what to put into the mix, though...Ã,  right now it's more of a gut feeling than actual working code...

-Av-

I tried something like that with FleshStorm I had this big chart with just about every parameter I could think of on it, I tried to come up with a formula to make balance work but it doesn't really translate into practice all that well, a lot of what constitutes balance is impossible to nail down and what looks good on paper often just does not work well in practice . The problem with a game like BZ2 is that it is deceptively complex and every little thing affects everything else in one way or another, it's impossible to see the full ramifications of the changes you make without intense testing with experienced players, balance is not a science it's an art .

In the end I had to scrap most of my perceived balance tweaks and just go with what the testers were telling me, this meant making a lot of changes I would never normally have considered, but it seemed to make the players happier which is what counts. For the record I don't consider FleshStorm to be very well balanced but when introducing 3 new playable races it was always going to need a ton of testing which wasn't really possible given the reletively small size of our community. I think we made a decent stab at it though and hopefully if the mod is popular enough the community can make it's own balance patches to bring it inline with what the players want and what they find the most enjoyable.

[deadscion]

Still balance by numbers makes good sense since many Team Stratters demand near perfect semitry from the map layouts.

vehicles classes:
light(not including turrets and  guardians)
fast, light weapons, light armor

medium( sentry, missile scouts, etc.)
medium speed, medium weapons, medium armor

heavy (assualt tanks, walkers, etc.)
slow, heavy weapons, heavy armor

defense classes

Light( turrets, guardians)
medium( none to my knowledge in strat)
heavy( gun towers, gun spires)

Seems like fire power and armor for offense and defense should match and other numbers like speed set according to the class of vehicle.

cloning the races you say? well what else do you think a perfect balance would be?

Blink was somebody's great idea without much thought given to how much different is was to the rest of the game.

Otherwise Blink would not be getting this much attention in this discussion.

If Stratter are going to insist on semitry in map layouts then they will also want semitry in their war machines as well.

It's my guess the perfect Stratters balance would be exactly by the numbers or both teams using the same race.

[Red Devil]

As you say, Lizard, very deceptive.  There are many layers to BZ2 as opposed to HL2 or other games out there.  I mentioned only a few balance factors before and it looks like you've got the expanded version.  From what I can see, there's these hard factors (probably left something out)

Weaponry  (of which, Dark Fox is the recognized authority) consisting of Cost, Hull Strength, DPS=(Ammo Cost, Fire Rate, Shot Speed, Shot Variance, etc.) 

Mobility

Scrap and Scrap Rate

Build Times

Terrain

And the fluid, dynamic, SAS/Marines/SF factors that *really* hose things up:

Strategy

Tactics

Imagination


I guess what it all boils down to is skill level.  A skilled player will be able to make something out of nothing as much as an unskilled player will make a mess out of everything.

Gotta start somewheres though, right?  If the weapons are balanced, that's the main thing.

Avatar, I was going to use Christiaan's as a base to grow on.  Sounds like you're way ahead of me though.

Good point on the medium defenses.  Never noticed that before, DS.

[APCs r evil]

cloning the races you say? well what else do you think a perfect balance would be?

Perfect balance would be boring as hell. You build one thing, the other guy builds another thing;  you send them both to the middle and they kill each other at the exact same time. Whoopy.

[Spawn]

gun towers/spires are more medium defences
for heavy it would be things which could take out heavy units, so other heavy units, atlas, rocket tanks, ass tanks with blast, splinter if it didnt suck, acid archers in 1.3
more or less units, not structures

the reason why maps are similar is because that is easier for the mapmaker.  you can make maps which arent symetric but are balanced, a few of the IX maps are like this, but some are just unplayable too

or you can have a map that IS symmetric but isnt balanced, the simplicity map make by RMX, that is symmetric, but the fact taht one base is above the other makes the higher base invincible adn the lower one left with units climbing up walls from bad pathing

[deadscion]

cloning the races you say? well what else do you think a perfect balance would be?

Perfect balance would be boring as hell. You build one thing, the other guy builds another thing;  you send them both to the middle and they kill each other at the exact same time. Whoopy.

The game type is called Team Strategy. Also as Lizard pointed out paint by numbers balance does not always work.
This is because targeting, weapons fire to target delays, manuvering to keep from being a target requires skill.
The best balance you can hope to achieve will be based on unskilled players, beyond that one will always find a guy who is more talented then others at perhaps a certain weapon or ship.

I know for a fact DarkFox used to make it all look easy, probably still can.

When both teams use the same race, and one team wins the battle,( provided nobody cheated) it is usually because the winning team used more skill and team work then the other team.

Perfect balance only helps the noobs, the vets use something else to win.

I stand corrected symmetric( thanks for the correct spelling) maps or not necessarily balanced maps.