Is it possible to cheat in multiplayer?

[bigbadbogie]

yeah - i havent played MP forever either

i spend heaps of time on modding now

[Zero Angel]

The reason it's getting smaller is because of the use of exploits.

The strat playing community in 1.2 is *not* getting smaller -- in fact the size has been small for the past 3 years and has not really changed. There have been some small changes to the lineups with some players achieving vet status, and others just moving on, but all of us are composed of a community of die-hard players who really enjoy games of BZ2.

A new player joins a vet game and they use hovering, ghosting, etc., to make themselves *unhittable* by the new players.  The new player, says, "Why bother?", and *leaves*.

It's the same reason that players in BF2 get their stats wiped or banned (wall glitching, etc.), which makes them *unhittable* to a new player.

If you try to introduce that into 1.3, then the status quo is maintained and BZ2 continues to have the small community that it has.


  Imagine a BZ2 where no exploits exist, where *everybody* is on a level playing field, therefore encouraging new players to join.  Do you think the community will grow?

Ghosting is countered by using something called the target reticule -- also known as the 'T' key. But you're right, the ghosting glitch adds nothing to the game and should be removed -- it is a side effect of fast running.

Now, lets get to the real issues here.

-- VETS SNUBBING, WHY IT HAPPENS, AND HOW IT HARMS THE GAME --

The newbies that come in are often discouraged by the attitude of many of the vets' "win at all cost" attitude. Teams must be balanced when picking and non-vets simply cannot compete with the vets who have been playing for years -- and they unbalance the teams because a lot of players who have been playing a long time take the outcome of the game really seriously.

In 1.2, this unbalance is the biggest issue. A poor thug on a team is like not even having a player (because he often costs the team more resources then he makes for the team) -- Therefore they have to work hard to become vets before they become welcome into vet strat. This difficulty prevents many new player from sticking around.

-- THE GREAT SKILL DIVIDE --

From the new players perspective, "everyone can do all of these maneuvers and why cant I do them?", they either become hard on themselves (i suck at this game) or just deflect it outwards (they just cheat)

The big issue here, why BZ2 isnt growing is NOT about flying. Its about unbalance among teams and how this unbalance discourages new players from becoming vets. Flying is just a skill that some people don't *want* to learn because they have to work hard to learn how to do it skillfully. This learning takes a huge investment of time -- close to a hundred or more hours of playing time.

Just like Enemy Territory, Counterstrike, Starcraft, or any other game you cant just pick up the game and expect to start owning. It takes lots of dedication.

-- SMART AI, SMART PLAYERS, AND ZST AS THE GREAT EQUALIZER --

Speaking of Starcraft -- In its early days it was known as a game where the player could get a quick win off by learning the Zergling Rush and the emphasis of strategy shifted off of the myriad of strategies that one could pull off and instead onto mastering the Zergling Rush. Nowadays most learned players can easily counter the zergling rush.

Look at the difference between ZST and 1.2 for example. In 1.2, pick any 2 vets who have been playing strat for 3 or so months -- they can hover any base into oblivion. In ZST, only a third of the players (who have been playing for a year or longer) can do hover attacks and pull them off well, the other third does a decent job, and the other third are piss poor at it and usually get blown out of the sky. But this is a HUGE difference in contrast to stock 1.2. I think that turret defenses should have a little greater of a vertical turn rate to become even more accurate for countering slow-arcing and turret humping -- but otherwise they do an OK job at countering hover attacks (instead of a non-existent job).

For those who think that this still doesnt require great amounts of skill. I'll even set up a demo for you -- add me to msn ( david_bobb -at- hotmail.com ) and we'll set up a private ZST game where we can practice hovering turrets. If you can kill turrets as anywhere nearly as effectively as I can through a hover attack (and i'm mediocre at hovering ZST turrets) then i'll concede defeat publicly.

[Zero Angel]

That kind of reminds me of a game where you're losing -- for whatever reason. Its easier to blame the other person and cry "my teammates are useless! they dont even stick together!" when you're not the one sticking to your teammates -- like i've done quite a few times. I also recall fighting this guy in DM -- his laser accuracy was unreal and I was so mad that I was losing because I was fighting so hard. I accused him of cheating, using an aim-bot to have such flawless accuracy.

Well there is no aim-bots in BZ2. And immediately after I calmed down, I realized that I was being exactly like one of those whiners that I usually get into arguments with. Well this player was a good guy, and I normally know of him not to use cheats. Apparently he got a new videocard and was capable of achieving more than 30 FPS in a DM as well as playing BZ2 HARD for the month that I was away.

Thats kind of how the flying debate is. People always want to blame someone else for their actions because that's the easy path to take rather than looking at how you can get better ("fool me once").

[Nielk1]

I've gotten rather good at flying, but I also disect the game's physics engine when I am board.

[Avatar]

Every game experiences this.  Jump into Tribes as a new player right now and you'd be a mouse among supermen.  N00bs are openly discouraged from joining games with experienced players, they're told to set up their own games and work their way up to a level where the Vets of that game will even play with them.

It's one of the hardest things to do with an MP game, make it such that a new player isn't smoked so fast they toss the game in disgust, while still allowing experienced players to take advantage of that experience. 

In the case of BZ2 I think the small community does work to discourage any new MP players...  then again it's not like the game is still on the shelves anywhere.  Sure, you can find it if you dig but most 'new' players are people finding iso's or getting copies from friends, etc..

And again, the MP players are the visible players...  they're just the ones you can grab a list of online.  I hate it when they're pointed at and shown as a measure of the community.  OUR community is rarely online and yet I have more time in the game than pretty much any Vet...  the same way a mechanic has much more time in/on/under a car than the driver has.

Yet those pretty boy drivers get all the attention...   

Anyway, bottom line is there's room to both advance the state of the game (1.3) and still keep the old players (1.2).  Of course, I"m saying this and I'm also working to make BZ1 available in BZ2...  so it's sortof my basic philosophy of keeping the old AND enjoying the new.  (I like my cake, and I eat it too).

-Av-

[Red Devil]

Like ZA mentions, I think it all boils down to the competitive spirit.  Some people like to - nay, need to - win at any cost.

To be clear, I don't think the vets who use these exploits are stupid.  Just the opposite.  That spirit forces them to use their heads to find any weakness and exploit it to their advantage in order to get a win.  That is the nature of war.

If they worked for a game company as beta testers, those people would tear a beta to shreds is  - which is a good thing.

As for skill, I *want* to be beaten by skill, but not by an exploit.  Remember that commercial where these online gamers were being wiped out left and right, then it shows a bunch of SEALS playing them saying, "Like shooting fish in a bucket."?

Well, I remember playing BF2 with some guys once who were heads and shoulders above anyone I had played against before.  So I joined them to see how they worked. They were balanced, communicated, organized, and effective and just rolled through everything - with skill and teamwork.

Then we ran into a wall glitcher who killed everything that came near him while holding the flag.  Then everybody left...

So that is why using exploits is not good for the game - any game - or the community.


As for what the physics are capable of in 1.3, just ask Av or Commando how the fast Scouts I made (for demo purposes) handled.

I think that BZ1/BZ2 is the very best game ever made.  I just want to increase the awareness and participation of it. You can't push people into something.  It's a lot easier to attract them and I think that 1.3 will do that.

Imagine seeing pages of games up instead of one.

[Avatar]

Wall glitching...  is he inside the wall?  My rig won't play BF anything... 

Tribes had the same sort of thing, you could place a turret such that it deployed inside the wall and was invulnerable to anything but splash damage.

Things like that ruin a game quickly, and the Devs have to jump fast to patch it out before losing players.

-Av-

[Commando]

Wall hacks are another issue.  Basically using modified drivers that make the walls transparent.  Basically allowing you to see through the wall.  This was a big issue in Counter Strike and any half-life based game.  I don't know if BF had wall hacks or not.

[Red Devil]

Yes, they did/do.

If you want a *really* good BF2 experience, I participated in testing this SP mod: http://www.aixtended.com/

F117A, all the MIG's, Mirages, A10, all the rifles/weapons and choppers (German Tiger, too) you'd ever want, ATV's, etc.  Oh yeah, mortars, incendiary grenades, lots more.

You can also play Co-Op (BF2 MPI).

[Avatar]

Oh, I see.  There were hacked Invidia drivers that did that, basically skipping the texture fill and giving you a cheating wireframe view you could toggle. 

Honestly, some people will do anything to cheat even a little bit...  but they're just cheating themselves.

-Av-

[Commando]

I believe AsusTek is the company who released a set of cheat drivers.

[Sonic]

The big issue here, why BZ2 isnt growing is NOT about flying. Its about unbalance among teams and how this unbalance discourages new players from becoming vets. Flying is just a skill that some people don't *want* to learn because they have to work hard to learn how to do it skillfully. This learning takes a huge investment of time -- close to a hundred or more hours of playing time.

This is the problem right here, people keep insisting flying is a skill, but its not. It doesn't matter if it takes 100 years to learn how to do it successfully, the fact is it is an EXPLOIT. And lets get this clear, its not an exploit because I say so, it is an exploit because the DEVELOPERS, the people who MAKE THE RULES deemed it an exploit. It wouldn't make sense for NBA Players to suddenly say double dribble is legal when the NBA says no. If the NBA Players don't like the rules, they are free to go off and make their own organization with their own rules.

And just for clarification, I'm talking about stock. When you play a mod, the rules themselves are modified, hence the name "MOD". You want flying, go make a mod and reffer to it as a feature of the mod. Don't go off and try to force change the rules of the un-modded version of the game.

[Nielk1]

Um, flying is a skill, and an EXPLOIT.
My rational:
Fraud can be a skill and it is an exploit.

I remind you, I hate flying...

[Feared_1]

When you play a mod, the rules themselves are modified, hence the name "MOD". You want flying, go make a mod and reffer to it as a feature of the mod.

Which brings us back to the 1.2 Recycler variant which could be the solution...

[Sonic]

Um, flying is a skill, and an EXPLOIT.
My rational:
Fraud can be a skill and it is an exploit.

I remind you, I hate flying...

Yes and No I guess. You could call it a skill being able to do the exploit, but the the exploit itself isn't a skill. Skills are usually seen the ability to contribute positively. Breaking the rules isn't seen as contributing positively.

I keep hearing this Recycler Variant thing, but non of those who are pro-flying appear to actually be making one, nor do they appear to be asking nicely to those who do know how to mod to make one for them. And even with variant, you won't get the infinite hover stuff back, nor do I see GSH/Ken spending time adding an exploit back into the game to satisfy those who can't play by the rules.

If they want to keep using the exploit, they can stick with 1.2 and all those bugs that come with it. They know the risks and limitations, they just don't need to be confusing potential new players by proclaiming an exploit is a valid skill.