Freedom vs Equality • Captialism vs Socialism

[CivBase]

Which do you value more?  Freedom?  Or equality?

So far, every single person I've talked to (which is around 20-30) has said freedom.  So why so many socialists?  If you do choose a side, back it up.  It's not that I want a war in this thread, it's that I want to actualy see some sensible reasoning on each side.

Personaly, I would rather have freedom.  I think a capitalistic economy is best for our country, where the hard working get rich and the not-so-hard working sink to the bottom.  Of course, a minimum wage wouldn't be a too bad, so long as it stays fairly low.  I don't like the idea of brining myself and others at my level and higher down so that a couple of lazy people can move up.  I know some people aren't lazy, but with enough effort, I believe even the poorest can rise to the top.

Really, true communism would be the best... but historical communism has taught us that that doesn't usualy work as planned.  So, what about you guys?

[Nielk1]

Freedom. I want to get what I deserve for my hard work.

[Angstromicus]

I like freedom. But, the amount of effort you put into your job is not necessarily the main factor of how well you get paid - but, rather, the job you're working in.

Suppose somebody's strength is a good ability in problem solving. This person could become a programmer and get a six figure job if he or she works hard enough at it.

But, suppose, somebody else's strength is a good ability to play basketball. This person could become an NBA star and earn a minimum of a six figures.


Of course, people should earn their living, but it is not necessarily always fair in a capitalist system that depends on money to reward people goods with. Money is more of a product of profitability than effort, so the hard workers and not-so-hard workers can be present at practically any level of income.

But I still prefer Freedom over equality for that reason, because equality removes effort from the system for gaining rewards (besides, CivBase is correct about historical Socialism anyway ). And, if nobody wanted to work to get their pay, the standard of living will be quite low. If nobody grew food, made furnitore, or governed people, then nobody would have access to those things. Money would be useless, as there would be nothing to buy. So, basically, everyone would be forced to make their own rewards anyway, or die trying.

What I'm getting at, is that the effort is the most important part of providing people rewards, and capitalism as it is today tries to do that to some degree. There isn't yet a way to pay people solely on the amount of effort they put into their work. A system quite different from modern capitalism would have to be implemented, where advanced implants or head gadgets would measure stress, fatigue, pain, suffering, etc. to determine just how much effort somebody put into their job. This would actually make for a much better market, as people would be more motivated to work harder, and, thus, produce better products.

Imagine, if every fast food restaurant was as good as a sushi bar. Imagine that the cooks there actually cared about the food they gave you. If you ate at fast food restaurants a lot, your standard of living would probably go way up. The same applies to every other job a human being has to work at.

[Avatar]

Freedom usually means the illusion that you control your own destiny.  Enough people die in car crashes that they didn't plan, from diseases they didn't choose, and from mistakes they knew they shouldn't make to show this is an obviously false idea...

Equality usually means the same options as others, not the exact same conditions.  That allows both a rich man and a poor man to feel 'equal' when by most social measurements this is blatantly untrue.

So...  pick an illusion.  Neither freedom nor equality are 'real' things.  They're both constructs of the human mind. 

Therefore...

Since they're just something humans thought up, you're as FREE as you think you are, and as EQUAL as you feel you are...  of course, there's nobody more free than a sociopath, or more equal than a murderer, so don't get too caught up in your feelings of freedom or sense of equality.



-Av-

[CivBase]

Freedom usually means the illusion that you control your own destiny.  Enough people die in car crashes that they didn't plan, from diseases they didn't choose, and from mistakes they knew they shouldn't make to show this is an obviously false idea...

Equality usually means the same options as others, not the exact same conditions.  That allows both a rich man and a poor man to feel 'equal' when by most social measurements this is blatantly untrue.

So...  pick an illusion.  Neither freedom nor equality are 'real' things.  They're both constructs of the human mind. 

Therefore...

Since they're just something humans thought up, you're as FREE as you think you are, and as EQUAL as you feel you are...  of course, there's nobody more free than a sociopath, or more equal than a murderer, so don't get too caught up in your feelings of freedom or sense of equality.



-Av-

Then again, nothing is real as fact is non-existant.  All we have to look forward to is our reality of things... and if you're religious like me, heaven.

[bigbadbogie]

And just like that, we are suddenly all depressed as we learn that everything in our life really means nothing. It is all just in our heads.

Duh...... and so what anyway?

Everything works fine the way it is right now so lets just concentrate on keeping it like this.

Freedom is real actually. It may have been created by mankind but it is now real. It is as real as a telescope or a computer = just an assortment of atoms really, but the whole becomes far greater than the sum of its parts.

[AHadley]

Av and BBB have it about right. Neither thing really exist. Don't take that the wrong way, mind.

[Avatar]

And just like that, we are suddenly all depressed as we learn that everything in our life really means nothing. It is all just in our heads.

No, it means your life means what YOU think it means.  In the end the only thing that defines your reality is YOU.

It's the basis for a lot of ideals in the world, from insanity to magic to philosophy to martial arts to social status to...  the list is too long.  It's a basic truth, one that many people understand only on an unconscious level, or when they reach the very end of their journey.

It all boils down to the idea that you are ultimately and totally responsible for the only thing you actually have any real control over...

You.

-Av-

too darn early for deep thoughts...

[Red Devil]

Freedom vs Equality:

"All animals are equal, but some animals are more equal than others."

This basically means that everyone is free to buy a house, but not all are equally able to buy/afford a house.


Capitalism vs Socialism:

"You can have anything you want in Alice's Restaurant.":

With Capitalism, you have a wide range of houses to choose, but in Socialism it would be just like everybody else's.

[AHadley]

"All animals are equal, but some animals are more equal than others."

Nice little bit of Orwell there

[mrtwosheds]

If you think you have either, then you have actually chosen to deceive yourself.
I would like to have both, but not too much of either, both are tyranny's when taken too far.

[CivBase]

If you think you have either, then you have actually chosen to deceive yourself.
I would like to have both, but not too much of either, both are tyranny's when taken too far.

As historical communism has proudly shown us...

No, it means your life means what YOU think it means.  In the end the only thing that defines your reality is YOU.

It's the basis for a lot of ideals in the world, from insanity to magic to philosophy to martial arts to social status to...  the list is too long.  It's a basic truth, one that many people understand only on an unconscious level, or when they reach the very end of their journey.

It all boils down to the idea that you are ultimately and totally responsible for the only thing you actually have any real control over...

You.

-Av-

too darn early for deep thoughts...

Life is not but our own perception of what it is.  While everyone lives a life, nobody, even if put through the exact same events and the exact same body, can have the same life (chaos theory ).  God created us in his image, but each of us uniquely flawed.  In other words, Hannah Montanah (dispite how I hate her) was right, "life's what you make it."  Reality is all we have.

Freedom vs Equality:

"All animals are equal, but some animals are more equal than others."

This basically means that everyone is free to buy a house, but not all are equally able to buy a house.

But you can't forget that in America, though some may find it harder, everyone has the chance to get that house.  The only reason we're not able to buy that house is because some let their persistance wear them down faster than others.

[Red Devil]

I added an "afford" to my post for the sake of clarity.

[CivBase]

I added an "afford" to my post for the sake of clarity.

As far as I'm concerned, my post still stands if that's what you're trying to clarify.

[Feared_1]

Freedom vs Equality? I can't see those two being opposites. If you're in a minority group and have the same rights (equal) as everyone else, you are "free" to do the things that other people can do, so you have both. I don't believe that those two (freedom and equality) are non-existent, I just think that the definition of those two words are based on opinion. You could almost say they're a unit of measurement.