See im one of those people that says a squeal is mostly better than the original (video games only), but i have been reading up on bz2 and bz1 (the wikis mostly) and i still i´m wondering what does bz1 have that bz2 did not?
Quote from: Dx on November 25, 2008, 02:04:48 PM
Better vehicle physics, Death Match and Strat, better internet gameplay and a real chat lobby. Better terrain graphics. Much more stable.
Yes, Yes, Yes, No, BZ2 has that, No, No.
You forgot to mention Bz1 had a much better storyline and atmosphere.
BZ2s mods compensate for all its shortfalls.
Ok that brings me to a few questions.
Not trying to start a flame war here.
Vehicle physics is the only thing i read about it being superior. (i never played it so i do not know) BZ2 HAS death match and strat, are you talking about quality? Well, patches have helped that internet gameplay thing. Bz2 does have a chat lobby. Terrain graphics, cannot say. And stable, its pb4a, thats kinda why.
And yes, the mods ROCK.
The only thing that I wish bz2 had from bz1 is a working 'hunt' command.
DLL :-D
It has to check every single unit for the command though. Can only be done in c++ or python.
I made a hunt DLL but it was very noisy. I passed goto and attack orders to the hunting units triggering some odd behavior and constant repeating of the unit VOs.
You could put them on an allied team for a second and then back so that the VO doesn't play.
Quote from: bigbadbogie on November 25, 2008, 05:02:01 PM
You could put them on an allied team for a second and then back so that the VO doesn't play.
Or team 0.
But then they will stop being attacked by the enemy.
C++. They wont even be on team 0 for a whole game step.
Battlezone I had more 'atmosphere', which is funny when you consider the settings... (stellar geek humor for sure)
I think the biggest difference in physics is best summed up by BZ1 being 'analog' and BZ2 being 'digital'. When I shoved the stick over in BZ1 I felt like the ship was connected to it by a wire. When I did that in BZ2 it felt like it was going 'step','step','step', or kicking over in increments. Hard to explain how it felt any other way...
I think the fact that in the day we could do SO little in the lines of BZ1 missions, where now we can do virtually anything we want to with several Scriptors and the DLL source code, more than makes up for any physics issues BZ2 might still have. This is because I'm biased towards SP, though, and I'm sure an MP player would disagree.
-Av-
? 1.3 BZ2 forces the player to play Strat correctly, so BZ2 does have Strat and it has always had DM, though a bit looser and less fun than that of BZ1.
Onslaught... Im pretty sure he is refering to the rushing that happens in BZ2 strats.
what dx does not realize is that we are not referring to the shabby 1.0/1.2 release that he played so many years ago. we're talking about the newer engine. :mrgreen:
The thread starter was is just talking about the core elements, mods are not included.
Yes... but such moddability is something BZ2 has that BZ had... not so much.
SO prefer BZ2, for graphics, storyline, models, gameplay. the lot.
but i also prefer the newer three star wars films over the old three, so hey
BZ2 is better on graphics by a hell of a long way. But as I keep on having to explain to an idiot friend of mine, graphics aren't what make are good game. What's a cool-looking game without a decent storyline (though I admit BZ1's was better than BZ2's), or modding capability, or ease of control, or (as is getting quite popular these days) realism?
Squat.
Well, it looks cool, but not much else.
Quote from: AHadley on November 26, 2008, 11:30:47 AM
Yes... but such moddability is something BZ2 has that BZ had... not so much.
Well, the fact that its easier to mod if a core part of bz2 so that does count says the thread starter.
Exactly.
Quote from: AHadley on November 26, 2008, 01:03:07 PM
Exactly.
Just to let you know, the thread starter is not really agreeing with you he is just saying that Easier Modding is a core part of BZ2 so it can be included in this.
Yep, heard this all before. :D
That's why I like to consider them two seperate games in the same universe instead of BZ2 as a sequel. To many changes to be a sequel...except maybe spiritually with same ideas across.
Or perhaps... a continuation of the storyline? That seems to give them some sort of link that I can't quite fathom... hmmm. :wink:
Quote from: Dx on November 26, 2008, 10:25:13 AM
Not only that but the infinite lives aswell.
BlackDragon the topic is Bz vs Bz2 not Bz2 mods, if the thread starter wants to talk mods of the two games you don't know the facts on BzE nor do i know all the facts on 4a patch so you can't talk points you don't know about.
To point out, 1.3pb4a IS NOT A MOD, it is A PATCH. It was made via source code modifications BY THE LICENSED OWNER. Thus, 1.3pb4a is perfectly discussable in this context as the working version of BZ2.
Quote from: cheesepuffly on November 26, 2008, 12:51:40 PM
Well, the fact that its easier to mod if a core part of bz2 so that does count says the thread starter.
How is that
not you agreeing with me? I pointed out something BZ2 has that BZ1 hasn't, thats what you wanted, isnt it?
Quote from: Nielk1 on November 26, 2008, 01:39:49 PM
To point out, 1.3pb4a IS NOT A MOD, it is A PATCH.
And just for GSH, the more percise description is a
unofficial patch. Don't call Activision or Pandemic for repairs. :D
Quote from: AHadley on November 26, 2008, 02:56:04 PM
What?
Hmmm.. I wonder.
It could've been anything really.... :-P
lol
1.3 is a PATCH not a mod.
For me BZ1 has a "cool" factor more than stock BZ2. It's a combination of the VO dialog, storyline, sounds effects, unit skins, handling characteristics, many things really. BZ2 has a number of saving graces though, as any semi-respectable sequel should.
Quote from: Dx on November 26, 2008, 04:46:53 PM
Even 1.2 wasn't approved of by Activision, 1.1 is the only official patch from the publisher.
And yet 1.2 is a patch.
Yes, BZ1 had a great atmosphere.
I hate the way BZ2 goes from Fire Planet to Jungle Planet to Ice Planet.
And here we go again. Another completely inane fight.
The 1.3 patches modify the sourcecode, and were made by the original developers.
THEY ARE PATCHES!!! There is no logical way around that Dx.
According to Doom modding utilities (yes they still exist), and the original DOS version (IIRC), mods are referred to as Patch Wads (PWADs).
Technically, all a patch is, official or not, is a change in how the software functions. Mods do the same thing, and more often than not,just on a less core level, and therefore removable without reinstalling.
So, with this reasoning, I deduce that both parties are right and wrong, and no fighting is needed.
So shut up now! :P
"A patch is a small piece of software designed to fix problems with or update a computer program or its supporting data. This includes fixing bugs, replacing graphics and improving the usability or performance."
Hence FE is a mod with several patches. Hence 1.3 is a patch. Hence BZE is a patch.
BzE is a patch to Battlezone.
Enhancement = Fix = Patch.
I would have to define BZE, 1.2 and 1.3 as patches to an existing engine regardless of their support or recognition by the official Developer or Publisher. The fact that two of them were done with the blessings of the Developer by two of the original coders doesn't make them official, and the fact that one was done by someone unaffiliated with either the original Developer or Publisher doesn't change that it's patched code.
A mod takes assets and changes them, a patch takes the engine and changes it. Modders don't normally have that level of access.
Also, as a point brought up earlier, I thought GSH stated that Pandemic holds the copyright for Battlezone II and can still use/modify the assets. They no longer have the right to use the name for new work, and Activision no longer has the right to publish something using the name, but the actual product will belong to Pandemic for what? 100 years or some other time period ridiculous in the age of computers...
Anyway... Back on track.
One more thing BZ1 had that nobody's mentioned... it was the newest thing in it's time... it's listed as one of the first true hardware accelerated 3D games, along with being the first true action/strategy hybrids, and was bundled with 3D cards by a lot of manufacturers to show off their capabilities. I know compared with the detail in Doom, Doom2, Quake, etc. when I first played them BZ2 looked amazingly crisp, clean, and fast.
BZ1 smacked me in the face, made me buy new hardware to play, and made a lasting impression on what I thought a good game was made of. No sequel can do that, it's something that can only happen once.
-Av-
Ah... they aren't monotone. They can have up to four layers and as many colours as you want.
I would like to note that BZ1 has better shadows in general AND doesn't look as cartoony as BZ2 does with the texture colors. (orange uniform makes for an easy kill in deep black space) :-D
Its sad that any topic concerning BZ1 become some sort of small unsolicited war.
To repeat what I said on BZ2MD not a moment ago...
SHUT UP, ALL OF YOU!
No, this topic is not a war. There's a technical disagreement. Not a big deal.
Also AHadley, there's no problem in this thread, so telling everyone to shut up won't help. This isn't a flame war.
I always defined 'patch' as something that modifies the game engine\code itself, and a mod as simply changing the variables the engine uses anyway. Don't forget the humble word that 'mod' stands for is modification, so it's fair to say even patches are mods.
Conflict over a disputed border?
Quote from: PatchA patch is a small piece of software designed to fix problems with or update a computer program or its supporting data. This includes fixing bugs, replacing graphics and improving the usability or performance. Though meant to fix problems, poorly designed patches can sometimes introduce new problems (see software regressions).
Quote from: modA modification of a game made by a player; also a modification of a story made by the audience.
A derivative game based upon a released game. CTF, Painkeep, Requiem, and Teamfortress are all examples of mods of Quake.
Seems obvious to me. A Patch fixes a game. A mod is a derivative game based on a game and so forth.
(http://www.overminddl1.com/image_scripts/image_sig.php?type=ODL1signitures&image/sig.gif)
Generated by OvermindDL1's Signature Auto-Add Script (http://overminddl1.com) that OvermindDL1 did manually since Greasemonkey does not work in Firefox 3.1 yet...
Quote from: SkyNET on November 27, 2008, 01:24:53 PM
Also AHadley, there's no problem in this thread, so telling everyone to shut up won't help. This isn't a flame war.
I'm sorry, I'm just annoyed that all we can do is fight... and I dont mean here, its over at bz2md...
BZ2MD and BZUniverse are in NO WAY WHATSOEVER linked together. What you post here WILL NOT be read by people over there.
And no, not ALL of us jsut fight.
*Reminds self to reinstall BZ1 on pc*
They are linked because they have the same members.
And I was under the impression that they are both on the same server too.
It seems like a what when people keep saying the same thing and nothing ever evolves.
I think OM's description is acceptable. On the matter of 1.3, it could be considered both.
As for the topic, I found BZ1 more 'atmospheric' than BZ2. It's was like a cold war sci-fi movie that you could play :P BZ1 also had massively better DM, although I personally think BZ2 DM has better maps.
Well, I'm pretty sure the gist of it is that Pandemic has the legal right to the engine and assets and can modify and still support them. I can't find his post but that's what I got off it.
And yes, I thought this thread was staying pretty civil other than a few people YELLING AT US here and there... :lol:
I think it's awesome that people like dx even care to try to keep such an old game alive, let alone actually growing and evolving. If there's any real testament to an old game it's the great lengths people will go to in order to keep it going... I think it's a shame that some people see this as an attack on the what? purity of the game? status quo? I don't know... I never understood it.
I doubt in ten years anyone will be trying to keep Tribes running when we're all using optical chips and holographic displays... :)
-Av-
Don't be so sure Av. Look at Total Annihilation. That game has maybe a hundred mods, inlcuding some actively developing ones, and spawned an entire fan-made engine(TASpring). It's ten years old and still has tournaments :)
While we're talking about companies owning things, does Pandemic or Activision own the name or concept for Biometal?
Um, DX, that makes no sense at all. Why on earth would Pandemic bother giving BZ2 the subtitle "Combat Commander"? They did it so they can do later games without using the title Battlezone. If they don't have the rights to the characters and story, what on earth would be the point?
On that note, don't ever expect "Battlezone 3", expect "Combat Commander 3" (thought it is not going to happen).
Lock this if you cannot stick to the issue i asked...
Agreed. I hate arbitrary build requirements. Now if the factory required an upgrade to get to high tech units, that would be understandable. But nope, you have to fill your base with non-functional buildings to unlock walkers and such.
Does seem a little silly, doesn't it?
The Scion build tree is much more understandable, but a little slower because everything costs more.
BZ1 also had finite resources that ensured that although able to build everything, you would be unable to spam a load of Walkers, Bombers, and Day Wreckers.
True, but at least BZ2 can have hovering scavs.
It has been explained that the scavs are heavier because of this transmission technology and that is why they are on treads.
Yes, BZ1's way does seem better for a more FPS game.
(http://www.bzcomplex.com/wiki/images/e/ee/Ivhscavscrapper.jpg)
It seems BZ2 inherited a bit more than expected from the Dark Reign 2 engine.
I too prefer bz1's scrap system.
It was that which got me hooked in the first place.
Chalk the changes up to:
1. They wanted BZ2 to be Team Strat Oriented where BZ1 was decidedly (in the day) DM focused, which meant adding a tech tree, upgrades, weapon choices, that sort of thing.
2. They needed to make the Team aspect more 'DM player' friendly knowing that much of the "that sort of thing" of Strat was a turn off to a dedicated DM player.
3. They wanted to speed up scrap collection while removing stress on the engine (pools are more engine friendly than a hundreds of small pieces on the ground) Part of this was feeling that an open ended scrap system was better than a fixed amount (sortof) as in BZ1.
4. They wanted to provide areas to fight over in place of protecting scrap convoys.
5. They wanted a more modern, streamlined look ot the objects (tho the orange is still mystifying).
Lots and lots of thinking went into changing the game, maybe more so than the thinking about what made BZ1 so appealing.
***
TA is very much like BZ in the hearts of the faithful... and may never die. :)
-Av-
BZ1 was a man's game; it was rough and gritty. BZ2 looked and felt like it was designed for kids.
The vast majority BZ1 MP games were playable even on dial-up. BZ2's MP issues were of a frequency and type that completely precluded any measure of immersion in the game.
Driving in BZ1 was like water skiing whereas BZ2 was like being on a helium filled boat tube.
BZ2 stock is like Star Trek, BZ1 stock is like the new BSG. In Star Trek, everything moves around inside of an energy field, acting like boats. In the new BSG, the ships fly as they might in real space, with loose fast fluid movements.
I like the way the new BSG does it, but I also know that at least BZ2 is capable of BZ1 like physics, and the new unlocking of the constants also does wonders.
Ah, I like that BSG analogy. There's a term for that difference in physics, also...
"Euclidean vs Non-Euclidean physics" or some such thing. Gotta keep it real.
Don't forget that BZ1 was VERY close to it's Interstate '76 roots. The Tanks handled a lot like my old '79 Dodge pickup, rocking and rolling and bumping along.
One thing I've found interesting in doing BZC... even on exactly the same map (as close as I can make, at least) in exactly the same ship (ditto) doing exactly the same things the BZ2 version doesn't feel exactly the same UNLESS I drop graphics to 800x600 16 bit colors. When I do that it's like something that was missing comes back a bit. Sure, it's not 100%, but it makes me wonder how much of the look/feel was due to the fact that everything was quite a bit more low-res, running so many fewer polygons through so many fewer game steps.
It's like watching an old 8mm film vs a new DVD. The content might be the same but the presentation adds/removes things on its own that made the original 'special'.
-Av-
I am sure that I will prefer BZC over BZ1 when the time comes.
Who wouldn't?
You get a choice in BZC to go with the original, low-res limited-color graphics or to smooth things out. Might even be possible to adjust framerates back down to the 30 or so I used to get in BZ1...
A lot of games now are being made with max settings that no current computer can handle, so that next-year's technology won't make the game obsolete... :) To bad BZ1 wasn't made that way.
I haven't played BZ for long enough not to know what settings I got... or I didn't pay enough attention in the first place.
anyway, DX, will you be playing BZC?
Quote from: Dx on November 30, 2008, 02:02:27 PM
I have 1600x1200 in Bz.
Now... sure. But when it originally came out a killer gaming rig was a P3 with dual Voodoo 2 cards.
Remember that far back? lol... we've sure come a long way.
-Av-
Sweet ambiguous messiah, that's old. I miss my ancient comp.
I don't, it was terrible!
Meh, i always upgrade once every 3 years (every year one of the 3 members of mai family get a new one, and we cycle). If it were not for the graphical glitches, i could run bz2 on max.
Hey, just wondering, you know if bz2 could run at all on one of those really small computers (you know those ones with REALLY small HDDs, or more or less flash memory and no CD drive)
Speaking of graphical glitches, does everybody get that high shadow effect bug? And is there any known way to fix it?
Yes. I have models that crash the game when they use high shadows. That is how bad that bug is getting.
Any known fix or workaround except lowering detail?
in the odf: noShadow = 1
Things I felt bz1 had that gave it an advantage over bz2.
* Undeployable Recyclers and Factories
* Weapon-linking & Multiselect (Both available in pb4)
* Dispensor-based camera navs and the ability to cycle through them using two keyboard commands. That and only being able to select one nav at a time.
* The hunt command, granted I never found it very useful
* I think it had a follow close command too in addition to just follow.
I hated BZ2 for a long time, but slowly learned to love it after playing some heavy MPIs with friends. Now it's the only Bzone I play, however, Bz definitly has something Bz2 doesn't: Soul.
1- Storyline.
Best. Plot. Ever. It was easy to accept you were a soldier fighting in outer space leap frogging from planet to planet. BZ2 has an okay one, but suffers from political correctness. The only games that have made me stand up and cheer after completing/beating were BZ1 and COD4. (Anyone else's heart skip a few dozen beats on that NSDF Venus mission when those unidentified units were poping up every couple minutes on sky eye? :D )
2-Music.
Beyond amazing. Was so heroic, foreign, and eerie all at the same time. Did it's job pulling you out of reality and setting the atmosphere.
3-Physics.
To touch on what Avatar said earlier-it's using a racing game's engine. You could "feel" the inertia in tight turns and jumps. BZ2 feels like you're on a crystal calm lake.
4-Voice Acting.
Was easy to forget they were fictional characters. The secret to any good book, movie, or game is a plot that makes you emotionally invested in the characters (care). Who didn't respect General Collins, or hate Arkin, or love Razor 1??? :) Not to mention Grizzly 1's retrospective testimony before each mission launch. "Mars ....the Greek god of war and the blood red planet..." (Gives me goose bumps just remembering.)
5-And finally, Technology.
Bz did a great job of presenting the world to the player all while keeping one foot in the futuristic door while the other firmly planted in the plausible door. Even though the units could hover, they still had a look and sound to them that reminded you that they were war machines that had only one purpose, death. Comparatively, BZ2s clean cut, smooth curved, emaculate paint jobs, and fisher price color schemes just don't invoke the same level of seriousness. Also canon wise the pinnacle of non-Fury Biometal technology was the big bad Walker. Stepping back from that and hovering units to BZ2's tracked units just feels wrong.
Remember that BZ2 was actually rushed out the door and is virtually incomplete.
Quote from: bigbadbogie on August 02, 2009, 08:13:19 PM
Remember that BZ2 was actually rushed out the door and is virtually incomplete.
I would say the same for Bz after the endless bugs i found.
Why is everybody slating the orange paint jobs? Lets remember something here, the units themselves probably come white from the factories, the orange and other colour is youre SQUAD's colour.
You are ORANGE squad, there are other squads in the game, blue, green, red. If you were meant to be in one of these then the colours would have all been just that. The colours also had to fit into every world that was created for them. I think the colours looked great, and i think that the units are FAR more attractive than BZ1 units. Personally i HATE the NSDF skins.
I KNOW that i will prefer BZC over BZ1 when it releases (if ever). BZ1 just feels like 'any old game' to me, BZ2 gave me a real atmosphere. I don't see whats so bad about the music in comparison to BZ1. I have both BZ1 and TRO music included in the addon pack for your enjoyment, but to me its more of that 'God Bless America' over-patriotistic crap that i can't stand. BZ2's music felt much different to me, granted i could hear some overused samples in there, but the tracks were great. On a slightly sadder note, i have often been falling asleep listening to music on my ipod, and when a BZ2 track comes on it takes me STRAIGHT back to my earlier childhood.
Back then i knew nothing of modding, and i appreciatted the game for what it was SO much more. To me, BZ2's modability is what kept the game going, and what keeps me interested in it. I would have become drastically bored of modding much sooner, and would have done what i did yesterday much sooner (That is, to buy a PC copy of the Unreal Editor for 'Gears of War' and learn a new game engine, which if you haven't heard me natter on about it is in my opinion one of the greatest software engineering acheivements in the game industry yet).
I must agree however, that BZ2 physics always felt like there was something missing. But, with a little time, effort and a few opinions, you could re-create those physics so easily, and achieve whatever on earth you want.
As for critisicing the walker, tracked unit and hover unit mix-up, i suggest someone takes a peek at Avatars not-so-old 'Why Walkers' topic, that showed off some spectacular technology.
"PINNACLE OF ALL NON-FURY TECH IS THE WALKER!!!"
That is a pure out praise of the walker. He complains about the need for treads when hovers did the job back in the 60's.
In essense, I would have expected HoverAssault to come way before the concept for treaded. Imagine the NSDF Assault Thunderbolt prototype with the rocket bays on a swivel with the engines- Light the sky.
"I know our units float and hover and don't die in the water, so why not make them treaded?" Says Arkin's son while holding millions of whatever currency suits whoever.
"Agreed!" Says ISDF command, taking the money.
Treaded units should have been included in BZ1.
Quote from: bigbadbogie on August 03, 2009, 07:52:59 PM
Treaded units should have been included in BZ1.
Since I76 had wheeled and MW2 had good mechs, Bz should have used them along with the headlights and better working collision detection.
That's the story of *why* BZ1 was developed. In Interstate '76 (I76), they did some tests, and some of the most expensive CPU code was the code to keep the 4 wheels & car body on the ground. Going to hovercraft removed 4 wheel calculations per craft per frame. Big win, at the time. They then needed a story/setting to work w/ the tech they had.
Nowadays, with dedicated physics engines like Havok, wheels are a LOT cheaper.
-- GSH
Plus, who really wanted Call of Duty: Space, anyway? Hover = good and defines BZ. They could've kept the tac and speedometer and it would still work, even though speeds posted in the manuel or information differ from the actual ODF. Be cool to see how many RPMs a v-thruster would shoot out. 1 bar X 1 million? Nifty.
I find it interesting BZ1 models have headlight markers.
It was one of those ideas that seemed better before than during develoment I suppose. Who needed light anyway when you had the sun bleaching the moon for your visual pleasure?
Or that you never got to see the dark side of any of the planets you were on?