Well, Yesterday I entered very late into a vet 3v3 when someone had lagged out. The other team tried atleast 10 times to have a bomb hit our small base, but even when we kept losing our ships, we still managed to kill the bomb... without fail. Note, this was in mini scouts.
It seems like the bomber will almost be useless in any strat 3v3 or 4v4, maybe in even 2v2 when decent players are around. We have atleast one person in our gaming community(Hammer, aka ...) who can shot down a 1.2 bomb with mini almost without fail as it is. I won't even try when he has blast. So, now I ask, what happens when some who could never even get the bomb down to half can now kill it with mini 100%?
Preferably, could the bomb speed be put up? That way, I can't say, look, the bomber is turning around to drop bomb!" Jump in my new minigun scout empty, kill bomb, and say "Hmmm, where did the bomb go?
If not, what about providing with with more health, or a higher armour class? I mean, surely a 20 scrap empty, shouldn't be able to time after time defeat a unit that costs 100 scrap initially, and 80 scrap thereafter...
Yeah, the bomb is pretty much easier to kill, one factor being that it is twice as big as the 1.2 falling tomato. I can't say that I never asked it to be a little more challenging. That's what this public beta is all about.
Exactly. Balance will be the second biggest thing about this beta.
After people get some experience playing 1.3 we'll need to start a checklist and begin experimenting with unit variants. I'd like to see it boiled down to strictly "can't live without" changes, though, that the entire community can moderately agree on.
-Av-
Other factors to consider with the Bomber:
it can change course in mid-air, so it can be sent to attack an outlying pool and shortly before it drops the bomb, target something in the enemy base, so that the bomber comes in from an unexpected direction.
its speed has been increased.
I have heard more comments that the Bomber is too powerful, than that it is underpowered. As technoid and Avatar say, we'll have to work out what's best.
Yes, in 1.2 you needed skills and precision to shoot the bomb. In FE and 1.3 all you need is a newbie in a mini scout. The dropping bomb looks great, but make it at least 1/3 smaller.
or have it drop multiple bombs, that would be cool. Of course the bombs would be weaker than the original single bomb. What do ya think?
I've thought this over. It seems very well balanced. The bomber travels fast and high (very hard to kill it).
The bomber drops a bomb that seems to be a very cool bomb. I believe the speed of the bomb being dropped by be increased about 1/3 because I get like 3 tries to kill it with a laser. U barely get 2 tries in 1.2.
bomb easy to kill: I just tested that, no kidding the bomb's falling velocity needs to be increased...
...the bomb falls as if it has a parachute, I'm not an ace gunner (far from it) and even I killed the bomb before it reached the recycler (with relative 'ease' using basic scout minigun).
The Bomber tweaking was done because the TRTs and Archers will now autotarget the bomber without a direct command to do so..It thereby reduces the effectiveness of the bomber.
Therefore GSH made some changes to flight path and flight speed to "balance" the bomber.
It was a credible idea, The BOMB speed itself is not as easy to tweak as it sounds...One must take into account the angle of the bomb and a problem the bomber has for blowing itself up with the bomb.
We found out long ago that if u bombed a taller building(Matiarch/Spire/Factory/Bomber Bay) The bomb would detonate at the top of the Building, thereby killing the bomber itself.
That but was eventually resolved, but the problem with "timing" the bomb speed remained.
Ideas were proposed to make the bomb smaller, and tweak its hull strength, but eventually GSH opted to make the bomber itself tougher to hit(via the bomber speed increase and the irregular flight path) And to a degree it helped balance out the bomber..at least initially.
I think this will need further review in the field after a few games. This can be addressed..It clearly needs to be seen in larger strat games..those games were rare in the closed beta.
With two stock Rocket Tanks defending an extractor, the Bomber always makes it through, drops its bomb and returns almost unharmed. The Salvo/Shadowers aren't much use against the Bomber. With two Rocket Tanks upgraded with Hornets, the Bomber is shot down, after it has successfully dropped its bomb. This is when the RTs are entirely dependant on AI, i.e., the bomber was not targeted, the RTs were just placed near the pool (doen't make much difference if the RTs are told to defend the extractor). This was in stock 1.3.
Yes, the bomber is way too powerful. Just tested it in a ISDF vs. SCION game last night (real game) and the blink warriors couldn't even kill the bomber on it's way, maybe it was the map I dont know. But the warriors tried blinking after it to catch it...but the bomber made it each time it was sent.
It needs to be balanced better. Remember in 1.2 it was almost worthless...so don't make it *exactly* like that :)
You're saying it is "too powerful" and "almost worthless"? :?
Is it a good balance for the Bomber to be an expensive ship that usually survives but the bomb itself to be a powerful yet vulnerable weapon? Might be a good mix?
its sounds useless...
- yey bomber going back and forth doing no dmg
Yeah, remember, most of us couldn't care less if we lost the bomber or not, aslong as it hit the target. So, now we have a bomber that most ppl have trouble killing, but any newb pilot with mini can kill the payload. Sounds like a useless unit to me. Why use my old tactic, and attack the base in some scavs?? Its alot cheap for the same effect.
A point that seems to be missed when alot of people try balancing the bomber, is that although the bomber and the bomb related, and should be balanced together, they should also be viewed as independant, and attempts should be done to balance it correct for both cases.
ie, a useless bomber makes a any bomb near useless, just as a useless bomb makes the bomber useless. find some equilibrium to swing the two "units" around, and try to get it equal.
The bomber has always been a hot potato , make it too good and the game just degenerates into a race to get the bomber , make it too weak and it's a pointless waste of scrap . I don't seem to remember the bomber ever being well balanced in the whole of the game's history , and so many things have been tried and failed .
Personally I'd scrap it altogether and replace it with a long range artillery unit . :P
Quote from: aougliYou're saying it is "too powerful" and "almost worthless"? :?
Is it a good balance for the Bomber to be an expensive ship that usually survives but the bomb itself to be a powerful yet vulnerable weapon? Might be a good mix?
I think it is a good mix. The last 1.3 strat I had was won for me by the bomber, the key to getting the bomb to hit is just as it was in 1.2 - distract the other team.
Ok, maybe true. Hmm...maybe the bomber is well balanced now. At least I've been able to kill the bomb pretty often, and easily, but not the bomber. It was reverse in 1.2, hard to kill the bomb but the bomber was easily killed and too often it was killed on it's way.
Now I don't bother shooting at the bomber, maybe I get it down just 20% before it drops...and then I have to focus on the bomb.
In my opinion, the objectives of Bomber/bomb balancing should be;
A) You should have some advantage to building up your base tech.
So bombers should be powerful, its an end of tech tree weapon (the bay alone costs 100, a new bomber costs 75 and given the fact that it is virtualy useless defensively:
-1- bombers should be 'very' powerful against an enemy without proper anti-air defenses)
B) I think the basic idea is to have no one vehicle be the best at everything, this way you have strategic benefits to building a varity of ships to leverage specific strategies or counter the enemie's strategy.
So IMO,
-2- tanks and scouts should 'NOT be effective' at 'hitting/damaging' bombers.
-3- TRT/Archer's however should be 'very effective' at 'shooting down' bran new bombers.
-4- Lancers and Avengers should be 'moderatly effective' at 'hitting/damaging' bombers with their missiles.
At this point my assessment is that
objective -1-
is not quite achieved because the bomb drops to slowly, its to easy to shoot down the bomb with a basic scout. on the other hand you can distract the other team, but I still think the bomb should fall just a tad faster (at least make it possible to shoot down but not easy)
objective -2-
seems to be achieved (it altitude and speed seem to make it tough for tanks to shoot at and this is good)
objective -3-
is somewhat achieved, but I think TRT/Archers should be a tad more effective then they are.
objective -4-
I have no idea if by loading the right type of missiles on a Lancer or Avenger missile scout you can hit bombers as it is now, I'll have to test that and see what others that have actually tested it say.
BZ has always had a "Unit/Counter Unit" sort of thing going.
SO, there should be a very effective Bomber, and an equally effective Anti-Bomber something, be it Building, Unit, Weapon... Tactic and counter-Tactic go hand in hand.
I believe that's the idea behind TRT/Archer being the only units that auto-target Aircraft. Proper use and placement of these should be proof against a Bomber attack, providing primary targets for a pre-Bomber Base Raid. Note that I'm not suggesting that building one TRT and sticking it in the Bomber path should be enough to automatically take down the Bomber. "Proper use and Placement" means human intervention to make them work properly...
The problem comes when the Bomber is improved beyond the ability of the anti-Bomber units to counter. As long as that doesn't happen there's leeway for Bomber/Bomb changes galore...
-Av-