This is a big balance issue. You've made the isdf walkers have assault cannons and therefor they have an extended range (240-250m).
However, the scion Titan seems the same, with about 180m range on the ARC cannon. I would think the titan needs to be given more range to meet the tuned up ISDF walker, because scions don't really have a long range assault unit. Try giving titans 210 m range for arc (at least) so they can outrange a gun tower.
I haven't tried piloting an Archer yet, which apparently is possible.
It is possible, but I don't think it is worth it. It is fun for a few minutes but its handling is too jerky to be very much fun.
Hm...piloting a archer, i tried that, but archer is still considered high priority target within the minds of players...if you see an archer...you kill it immedietly...and therefor the archer is rarely or never used...at least in 1.2.
ps. you can still put archer on top of buildings by using nav points.
I was waiting for someone to bring this up... I think you're right on and the Titan should be at the least equivalent of the ISDF Asstank...
Still....
Anyone feel the Scions are a bit understaffed? That they don't have the variety of units that the ISDF has, especially when it comes to the "Big Boys"? (no Giant Walker, no Bomber)
How about we add a unit at the very top of the Scion food chain?
I nominate either the Scion Bomber from FE or the Gorgon from GAIPS...or both if the FE guys don't mind donating their Bomber....
-Av-
what bomber are you referring to?
the Brawler?
Yup. That's the guy. Hate him. :) He should be given a place in the 'real' BZ2.... lol...
Seriously. We should fill in the ranks a bit and make the Scions more fun to play.
-Av-
only problem with uping the titans range is then regular tanks would have the same range.
With the new AI i would suggest the best anti walker is a swam of units.
I think the assault range of the blast is a little much seeing it will be used more often now, the bull dog was the only other unit that could use it before.
But PLEASE not the Brawler from FE.
That unit is very un-scion, brought in with
its sonic rocket to give scions a long-range unit
but it could've been ISDF for all its normality and
lack of shield.
Archers and wasp-missiles are the scion long range weapons,
but the titan is only good as AI in defence.
In human hands and with plenty of healers it can do the
business in assault but has to keep moving forward or
it
gets picked off by ISDF mortars, GTs, hornets, etc.
To give Titan ARC a range of 220m would be my suggestion,
suck it and see. Maybe then they would get used.
At the moment the ONLY scion assault units worth building
are suicidal maulers ... expensive if they fail..
In FE the scions were hugely improved, the overlooked best weapon
being 350m Archer range.
1.3 Scions are hugely devalued once the enemy Rec has Mauler defence.
hmmm in 1.2 the blink was scions victory weapon... unbeatable once they get blink
i've noticed that in FE scions were NEVER used cause (or maybe not only because of that) blink ammo take was increased therefor making it worser
ive always thought that scions need some more ships and maybe some weapons...
isdf have 6 cannons + controlable mortar while scions only have 4 cannons and cant control mortar and their highest cannon range is 175
getting titan 210 range arc is possiable though? cause if you change the arc cannon it'll be 210 range on all ships wont it?
Awwwwww.....
I like the brawler because it looks like a Grendal... (no suprise that I like it, then, eh?) Give it a shield, have it morph, whatever it takes to make it more Scion. :)
I would agree with the BLINK argument IF the AI could use it. Now that the AI actually kill humans it reduces the effectiveness of a single human in a blinking Tank. BLINK to the back of the base to take down some PS's and ZAP, there's an Assault Walker taking you down in three shots... ouch.
How about giving the Titan the gmbolt rather than a garc_c? (Gunspire rather than Tank Arc?)
-Av-
Titans are supposed to have short range. Thats why you have archers. It also balances the all-powerful spire.
Ask DarkFox, a scion-expert, for an explanation.
i think u mean arc blast rather then arc cannon...
but then u wont be able to mod it
Speaking of the Wasp, does anyone think its size should be cut down? Maybe 10% to 50% down? That thing is damn huge and is a sucker for getting ripped just like the new 1.3 DaBomb (by Dutchy I think), because of its size. I've always wondered how the Lancer shot the things... reminds me of someone blowing a balloon and letting it shoot off into the air. :)
(Sorry, got OT)
Walkers can be attacked from the rear with ease, and destroyed. The titan has a 360 degree turret, which makes this impossible.
Titans backed up with service trucks are very powerful battlefield-superiority units, and fit this niche far better than a walker does. A walker is more useful for base defense, or assaulting an enemy base if you have the cash.
The titan can be adapted to attack bases with sonic cannons, which is quite useful, but fundamentally it's best for dominating a battlefield, not assaulting a base at long range.
When a commander gives me a titan and a few trucks I'm *far* happier than when I get given a walker. The raw damage at 180m range that a titan can put out against tanks and scouts surpasses pretty much anything else in the game. If anything, a titan should be compared to an assault tank, and it sacrifices range with *far* more instant-hit damage, not to mention comes with *much* more ammo, and *much* more health.
All-in-all, any scion vehicle that has weapon range greater than 200m needs to be looked at *very* carefully, scions already have incredible assault abilities with the mauler, and if an ISDF player spends time defending his base with chain turrets and rocket tanks to defend against maulers, he would easily be killed by a long-range titan. Furthermore, the ability to spire-walk would be *grossly* overpowered if they could then roll up in a titan and take out the ISDF tank that was desperately trying to use it's only option(mortars) to take out some of these spires, thereby making the ISDF base defenseless to their long-range arc cannons..
Don't give scions base-outranging weapons besides the highly-vulnerable archer. That way, the scion players have their quick-raid advantage with maulers and blink, and dominate the battlefield with titans and blink/arc/gauss warriors, whereas ISDF try to win the late game by trying to monopolise on their range advantage. Giving scions easy access to long-range ruins this racial balance, and makes scions far too powerful in the late game.
Bottom-line - the titan is fine as it is. Don't compare it to a walker, walkers get shot in the back and killed, or run out of ammo after a few shots.
not if a tank covers... espicely now... 1.3 tank - u dont need the 360 turn...
and 1 thug in 1.2 is enough...
spire walking isnt that easy since they mortar from base - which u dont have acsess to.. and sometimes the base have tons of gun towers, trucks, rckt tanks and rats.. maulers sometimes are useless...
If there is a request for a morphing Brawler, I am happy to animate the morph animation.
A talk covering a walker ties up two enemy players. When put up against two scion units working in unison (even something as basic as two blinking warriors with arc/gauss), the tank doesn't have a chance, and when destroyed, the lynchpin to your whole assault is gone.
I agree, a tank covering a walker can be an effective tactic in 1.3. A walker being covered by an AI rocket tank is even better, but it's certainly not overpowered, and giving the titan long-range weaponry wouldn't the answer even if it were.
Lobbing mortars at spire-walking scions isn't that effective, mainly from the fact that:
a. They can bounce them away with sonic.
b. The usually have most of the map's pools, meaning they build spires faster than you build tanks.
c. They are whizzing around in scouts/warriors killing your tanks or pools while you kill their easily-replaceable spires.
The power of spirewalking is mainly an economic advantage, and once the ball starts rolling, it's very hard to stop. Giving scions a titan with 200m+ range would change that from 'very powerful' to 'absolutely unstoppable late-game win', IMO.
"Walkers can be attacked from the rear with ease"
I agree, I have the piloting skills of a sedated sloth with parkinsons :shock: , and even I have managed to score hit after hit on a walker from behind. :D
I also agree Its easy to deplete your ammo in a walker, every shot's got to count, and once you realize you have one last shot if an enemy wanders in your helpless, cant run away and after that one last shot you're a sitting duck.
I was able to waste a base with just my one Walker and 5 trucks. SP tanks coming after me and GT's blazing.
But I sure love the sound of the Walker's cannon...
Those SP tanks didn't kill your trucks?
df got some points... im a 1.2 scion fan... im using all the tactics u said there...
bouncing mortarsr... upgrading 5 pools but still it can take AGES and AGES
and if i build titan its just useless cause it does nothing and maulers just die... AI / human piloted...
the only unit that worth something is scout and warior... and they still cant attack base as well as the isdf tanks
You present your case very well darkfox, and I agree with most, if not all, that you wrote.
However, you forget some points:
- Walkers do greater damage per shot, and can take out a tank with 3 blast shots and 1 laser, a scout with 1 blast + 1 laser. Therefor ships approacing the walker are more likely to die before they get behind it. I speak from experience, they always come out of their base one at a time and I always kill them before they do real damage. But of course there is always this one guys that slips through :\ but then again, I have my thugs and if the assault is planned carefully enough I'll have turrets covering me too.
- The service truck dilemma. You will need trucks, for Titan and the Walker. However, the enemy can push in between the trucks and kill them without you being able to stop him. You need thugs covering you. This is true for the Titan and the Walker.
- High priority target. Everyone know that when you see a walker, assault tank, mauler or a titan on the field then it's more than likely it's going to be used to attack your base. So you drop everything what you're doing and try to kill it! The titan doesn't really deserve this kind of attention, it's not as lethal as many think. Nothing that a few MDM's won't take care of or a scionic sonic-wave push if scion vs scion :) But yes, it might be good to take control of a terrain, but however, you do have spire walking and spires are cheaper than titans and have longer range!
But I do agree with you darkfox, giving titans 210-220m range arc range is a bit too much. Giving them perhaps 190-195m should be enough..at least I have an option of using the titan then...but it's still not the base basher it would be with the 210-220m range.
I'd rather pay a 100 for a Titan with 210m range.
"- Walkers do greater damage per shot, and can take out a tank with 3 blast shots and 1 laser, a scout with 1 blast + 1 laser. "
still using 1.2 data appel?
2 assualt blasts (1 shot from walker) will annhilate a scout...
the walker was givin these cannons to try and bring its on field effectiveness to par..
when something like the ablity for it to lay prox or m-curtain to make itself a sheild would have been awsome...
theres still a few problems with this 1.3 walker.. the radar/ingadge range..
Quote from: Scout2 assualt blasts (1 shot from walker) will annhilate a scout...
I said, 1 blast + 1 laser for a scout. Both in FE Rev.C and 1.2. 1 double blast cannons take the scout down to deep red, and the laser hit to finish it.
The only difference in 1.3 is that the walker has GUNS also in assault mode. I liked being able to kill a scout within a millisecond, alternating between blast and laser.
Yes, appel, in 1.2, it took one blast hit plus a laser from the walker. However, in 1.2 the Blast on the Walker was "Combat" mode. In 1.3 now, its in "Assault" mode, which means, u hit once with your blast, and the scout is dead. Try it and see. It deals alot more damage.
Quote from: AlbinoPenguinYes, appel, in 1.2, it took one blast hit plus a laser from the walker. However, in 1.2 the Blast on the Walker was "Combat" mode. In 1.3 now, its in "Assault" mode, which means, u hit once with your blast, and the scout is dead. Try it and see. It deals alot more damage.
In FE the walker has assault cannons too, but it does require you to shoot both the blast and the laser to kill a scout. I'll find out tonight, when I come home from work, if a 1.3 assault mode Walker can kill a scout in 1 blast shot.
IIRC appel, FE Assault version blast was tuned down because it was thought to be too powerful. I'm sure DarkFox can correct me if I am wrong here.
First of all, FE reduced the damage from assault blast. In 1.2 or 1.3 an assault blast shot does 900 damage to a scout, so a single shot from a walker will deal 1800 damage, enough to kill a scout in one shot.
On to appel's 3 points, all 3 of which I believe are null for different reasons:
Quote- Walkers do greater damage per shot, and can take out a tank with 3 blast shots and 1 laser, a scout with 1 blast + 1 laser. Therefor ships approacing the walker are more likely to die before they get behind it. I speak from experience, they always come out of their base one at a time and I always kill them before they do real damage.
Scions will *always* modify their warriors with blink in the late game, which subsequently makes it very easy to get behind your walker without being killed.
Quote- The service truck dilemma. You will need trucks, for Titan and the Walker. However, the enemy can push in between the trucks and kill them without you being able to stop him. You need thugs covering you. This is true for the Titan and the Walker.
Oh boy, you chose a bad area to compare the two here. *three* faveourable arguments for the titan follow:
Firstly, the titan has a very useful high vantage point, one of it's biggest advantage over both the assault tank and the walker (the hadean hedoux has high-vantage-point guns, which work in a similar manner). Try it out, with a bit of practice you can fire your arc cannons over the top of your trucks, killing enemy scouts and tanks that try to get in them.
Secondly (it gets technical here), the service truck in BZ2, much like the service pod, will split it's 'service power' between ammo and health, depending on which is lower. The overall effect of this is that ammo and health are both equally important in prolonged serviced attacks, and as such it's convenient to think of your health and ammo as one big 'pool'. By firing your weapons, you're reducing this pool, and thereby actually damaging yourself in the long run. Firing assault blasts does a lot of damage to yourself in the long run, whereas firing arc cannons does much less. In short, the ammo and health become one in service wars, and as such Titans once again come out on top due to their low-ammo-consumption weapon.
(A similar argument can be held for the comparison of comet cruise to hornet rockets...)
Thirdly and finally, the great ammo and higher speed of a titan make it far less reliant on trucks than a walker is. I frequently use them without any trucks and all, harrying back to my team's dower and out again for raids. I do the same with ISDF assault tanks, I'm just hoping someone here can vouch for this tactic's effectiveness...
Quote- High priority target. Everyone know that when you see a walker, assault tank, mauler or a titan on the field then it's more than likely it's going to be used to attack your base. So you drop everything what you're doing and try to kill it! The titan doesn't really deserve this kind of attention, it's not as lethal as many think. Nothing that a few MDM's won't take care of or a scionic sonic-wave push if scion vs scion But yes, it might be good to take control of a terrain, but however, you do have spire walking and spires are cheaper than titans and have longer range!
So you're saying people put more resources into killing titans than they should have? Surely that's an advantage to the titan-using scion player? The enemy isn't prioritising his targets properly, hence the great opportunity to feint with them.
Where would we be without you Darkfox? Probably all using 400m blast on our tanks and a bomber that travels 1000m a second :-D
hehehe, you make good points on this issue, I think we can live with the titan as it is.
but i do believe a extra 5-10m range is cool =)
DF, As a Scion lover (but bad Scion Commander) I have to thank you for your insightful, informative, civil posts. Keep 'em coming...
Now, what do you think about the ISDF GT in 1.3 vs Scions? What does the good Scion Commander use to take them down, especially when they're backed with Treaded Rocket Tanks and Chain Turrets, or have 'smart' Service Trucks behind them?
I miss watching Maulers run through the pretty green bolts to stand at the base of a GT and spray it to death...
-Av-
They still can, I've done it, just leaving it to a human to do it though is more reliable than the ai since the the gt can throw the ai off, also if the mauler gets distracted it will try and attack whatever attacked it first even if it is not what u told it to target in the first place.
Avatar - Acid mortars in 1.3 are incredibly powerful against none and light armour, which includes turrets and service trucks. They also have a much longer range now, long enough to outrange bases. Howitzers are more powerful now, too, making archers more effective at taking out bases...
If one mauler attack fails, all the rest probably will, so your best bet is to go for a spire walk and try to get an archer to fire an acid mortar in there. Remember that spires and archers can be very well defended using sonic cannons (not wave) to counteract mortars, and with a lot of work and time, you will eventually crack the base from attrition and pool-hogging.
The other great thing about using sonic is, obviously, that it helps you spirewalk with builder pushing.
Sometimes sneaking an archer in is viable too, since in 1.3 one or two acid clouds is all that's required to do the necessary damage, and it doesn't matter that the first archer shot always misses it's mark - it'll still be close enough to deal massive damage.
Finally, remember that even if your mauler rush fails, you still have blink, which should make losing nearly impossible.
I feel the pain though - the boring spirewalk seems to take forever, and you can easily go for a good half hour feeling like you're getting nowhere. Horrible aint it?
As a final note - when I first saw the new acid mortar, I viewed it as a little overpowered. Before you make judgement, remember that the pod can be destroyed before it gets to do too much damage.
also.. when u spire walk and ur spires getting mortared can just stand there still morphed after pushing the builder and just wave the mortars away while waiting few secs for new spire + the spire attacking something or w/e...
also, against gts... well get scout / warior with absrobotain.. - hit and run..
get the gt to like red... (then ull be red) and blink btb for a pod...
hit and run tactics
just throwing ideas around for darkfox to comment on
First: What if the walker could turn fast enough to defend itself from a lone attacker?
Second: What if the archer had a slight higher armor and health rating so a pilot with a pulse rifle could not kill them?
Oh sure, a couple, but taking down the Powers and Factory beforehand limited their response numbers (plus I could bring in replacements if needed) then they were easy pickings. After that, it was just Boom!.....Boom!.....Boom! for a little while, then I played with blasting the Scouts for awhile. It's even easier with the Smart and Hyper trucks.
Love that Blast Cannon sound... the mortars too.
Quote from: DarkFoxThose SP tanks didn't kill your trucks?
I'd like to say that it isn't always best to kill things in the field. Just soften them up some, down to red, so that your defenses can pick them off near base. Better to have them deliver their soon-to-be scrap hulks to your protected Scavs than have them be easy targets out in the field.
Same thing with enemy Ex-tractors and bases. Just soften them up, down to red, before your guys make the final assault. Then before the final assault, finish off their pools. That way, their Constructors/Builders won't have scrap - or time - to replace everything at once.
(Won't work if they have Smart or Hyper trucks though)
Well Red Devil, that is very smart play... You have also illustrated why it is bad to have the service trucks automonously heal a base. That really is the commander's job, and your good strategy is rendered useless by service trucks that take responsibility away from the opposing player.
But that's the beauty of it. :-) It forces you out of the usual strategy and forces you to develop new tactics which you can use to develop new winning strategies, thus making BZ even more enjoyable.
With the advancements in PC technology taking place and 1.3, CPU/graphics lag will no longer be a factor and massive battles and assaults will soon become the norm.
How many have played Greenheart's MPI Firestorm? You should have seen it while it was being developed. Attack waves of 10-20 SP Sabres, RT's, AT's, and Scouts repeatedly coming at your base before it was toned down a bit. One tip: It's best to go in and recon their base first...
But, I digress.
DF - as always - makes good cases for keeping the Titan weapon range as is.
How do you get a wasp missle then when in Scions. It dosn't show up on my menu's
Cheers
You have to morph the Lancer ("C" key)
Can you customise it in the Kiln/Forge? I'm not sure a Wasp crate can be dropped as a power-up.
I don't think so (but I'm at work, so I can't tell or remember). Multi-lock is the combat version of Waspy. But again I ask, would it be good to resize the Wasp to a smaller version, from anywhere from 10% to 50%? One thing that keeps a bunch of Lancers from using Wasps well are that they get in the way of each other. That's probably a good thing for the targets, but I've always seen Wasps as just too big of a rocket (bigger than ISDF cruisers) and just as big as the Lancers themselves. "Balloon missiles" I also call them.
Quote from: Red DevilHow many have played Greenheart's MPI Firestorm? You should have seen it while it was being developed. Attack waves of 10-20 SP Sabres, RT's, AT's, and Scouts repeatedly coming at your base before it was toned down a bit. One tip: It's best to go in and recon their base first...
Large attack waves were caused by the DistributeUnits Plan in the aip files which was grabbing units & sending them to defend buildings. When the dll switched aip all those units would get picked up by the idle dispatcher & sent to attack Player's Base or Extractors. The FPS dropped to almost zero
when a large amount of units were built. The problem was eliminated to ensure that IA\MPI games will remain playable reguardless of how long you are play.
It sure was a rush when it happened though! ;-) It doesn't do it any more. GreenHeart did a great job working to get it to work well. :-)
Quote from: IceWendigo"Walkers can be attacked from the rear with ease"
I also agree Its easy to deplete your ammo in a walker, every shot's got to count, and once you realize you have one last shot if an enemy wanders in your helpless, cant run away and after that one last shot you're a sitting duck.
Thats what sp is for. a walker with dual assult sp is the true base killer
sure its expensive and your quickly dead but not before you trashed the armory, fac and maybe a few power plants.
put in pummel instead of laser, cycle, and you got yourself a rec killer.
Man 1.3 walkers are damn scary! Gotta work for that loose now...