I'd be interested to hear what, if anything should be done about humans piloting Mortar Bikes.
In stock 1.2 and FE they weren't used by human pilots if the Rec was still available. I was looking forward to them being available again.
In the 1.3 stock version (the vet Rec patch/mod doesn't alter them) they are almost impossible to hit with anything, including Blast and Shadower. I asked several people to shoot me and after a few minutes I had over 80% health, having done myself more damage from the hard ground than from enemy fire. And this wasn't anything to do with hovering, I was just whizzing around over hills and getting some height and moving erratically.
I'd still rather have an upgraded scout, and if your Rec has gone, I guess almost anything goes.
So any thoughts? Acceptable to pilot the MB without restriction?
I would suggest allowing a fast top speed but lowering the strafing accell and speed this would fit the mortar bike as a fast attack ranged unit, and not a dogfighting unit.
Would it make sense for Shadowers and FAF to lock on really fast to MBs? Dunno what Scions would do though.
I would start with Pandi's initial vision of the Jackal (JA 7M7-K) first and then go from there (and also gameplay experience from patches 1.0-1.2)...
Speed = Fast
Turning rate = High
Armor = None
HP = Mortar
Note that turn rate is different from strafing.
Per Pandi's "history" of this hoverbike, it used to be a recon unit. Then it got outfitted with mortar for combat when the Scions arrived. It's meant to be a long range hitter against slow units and/or stationary structures.
I believe the bike was also tweaked (ODF) to deplete or reduce static hovering.
it still warps 2 much...
in any mod.. the bz2 engine cant seem to handle it..
i've been told in ZST mod it doesnt warp as much as stock 1.2 but i find it still warping more then usualy and unhitable with weapons like blast, arc and laser which are constant weapons.. u have to spray around with chain / mini and ull might get few hits...
1st fix the warping of everything else (tanks, AI units and most importent - souts)
all my games so far were realy warpy, exept the server
i could hit the server great and he told me no1 warps for him but i couldnt hit any1 else....
the server is not the best but i heard from alot that 1.3 warps badlier then 1.2 even on stable servers
If you're driving a mortar bike you tend to use it to drive up hills, get a lot of speed and altitude. That's always the case, no matter what you say, the mortar bike is still going to be used like that. Mortar from higher ground than the target.
I believe the mortar bike shouldn't be *allowed* as human piloted in MP games, I tested one of them where the enemy has like 4 assault tanks, 4 turrets and 6 rocket tanks and I just flew around them killing them without taking ANY damage.
I also flew through aougli's base in one game, just flying around in it, and nothing could hit me.
Human piloted mortar bikes in 1.3 = unhittable
Quote from: SilverB1rdI would suggest allowing a fast top speed but lowering the strafing accell and speed this would fit the mortar bike as a fast attack ranged unit, and not a dogfighting unit.
the other effect of this would to be reduce the warp cuased by side thrusting alot.
I was trying to hit Aougli's Mbike with my blast sabre,
occasionally its health would dip to red, but then
resynch or half a second later it would be green, not hit.
I tried aiming ahead,
tried aiming behind,
aimed AT it of course,
dammit I never got a good hit on it in 10 minutes of
occasional combat.
Why the heck is 1.3 like this?? It was NOT warp, the
thing wasn't warping AT ALL. He was simply hitting hills,
looping over at about 200m, flying around without
much strafing it appeared.
I can hit Sabres and warriors in 1.3 with blast and laser
no problem at all.
Something is wierd.
By the way, I think Aougli was server in that game.
APC pilots died fine for me.
its sad but mtr bike was always forbideen.. well i realy dont know about FE but i dont think ever seeing some1 drives a mtr bike and not getting shouted (only saw some1 driving bike in 1.2)
never saw some1 drive em in FE and ZST
i assumed cause ppl didnt change them but then i was told they were
I seem to have alot of success at hiting mortar bikes when I host a DM or when I play DM. I havn't got the chance to engage one in a strat.
with blast / laser and other constant weapons?
i gotta see that
Yes, I think I was server. I don't think not taking *any* damage from enemy fire after requesting that everyone on the other team shoot at me and staying in the centre area can be entirely explained by resynchs. *Every* time anyone tried to shoot me the game resynched? Doubt it, might have happened once or twice, but I don't think that is the full explanation. I only remember being hit once, and that was by a blast or laser, and my health went green-yellow-green.
btw, DR is often in FE strat games I host without much of a problem, though neither of us pilot Mortar Bikes in those games.
Mortar bikes have always been illegal, even FE bikes; and enforcing that rule has never, ever, been an issue.
Their unhitability, speed, and hovering; not to mention cost; ensures that if you use a bike, then so do I, then hoot hits the fan and the game is ruined.
um...i was under the impression that the bikes had radically altered speed properties in FE, and so did not become 'unhitable' as before...just hard.
1,2...sure...unacceptable.
but in FE i never seemed to mind fighting them, i do not remember being seriously annoyed with them, they died under my fireball and slicers fine :D
Perhaps taking the FE vechile charastics and sticking them in 1.3 might be something to test.
infact...
http://www.bz2cp.com/manual/rules.htm
god not having an edit function is getting annoying.
anyway, it says in 'rules for bzii' quite clearly...
Quote......veterans at this time. Follow these guidelines and you will likely have the most rewarding gaming experience with the least amount of friction amongst different players. Please notice that "No driving Mortarbikes by humans" is another rule that is used with version 1.2 games. That rule hasn’t been included here since the handling characteristics of Mortarbikes that made them unhittable has been corrected for Forgotten Enemies.
Universal Rules for Ba.....
I've never banned bikes in a FE game even once. The reason you dont see players in them is that they are so completely worthless that it would be a waste of money. Not because they are banned. Heck the AI driving them cant even get them up some hills. Lead balloons.
If they were ever banned then they would have been addressed in Rev.C to make it so that they weren't.
FE bikes are about the easiest unit there is to kill except pilots or archers.
well TV in FE they are just total useless then... and like ZA said.. if they are any good well - blah
i find it quite hard finding a blance between total useless to "2 good"
@ TV: Ahum, In the days when I didn't have an internet connection yet and played BZ2 offline (that's 4 years ago now), I played ONLY in mtr bike. Haven't flown any during the last 3 years (perhaps once or twice in a DM, but no more than an hour all in all throughout the years), BUT: with the skills even I was able to make in flying bikes, it would have been ABSOLUTELY NO PROBLEM to stay just 400m or so above enemy rec and drop your whole load right onto it (If I remember correctly, that's just about enough to finish a nearly full rec off). Heck, I even could 'catch' my own mortar grenades fired in mid-air. those were the days *g*
but seriously: I think, most people will understand, that it's necessary to stick to the 'no human bikes' rule, so I would just leave them as they are.
If someone can hit a recycler consistantly from 400M straight up nose-hovering, they deserve a piloting award (you can't even see the object at that height, and it's out of range for mortars). Whenever I hear people make these comments, I know they are not well versed in flying.
Flying is not the uber-skill that some are making it out to be. Let's keep the discussions credible folks (along with respectful).
@Weevil: You are refering to legacy bikes in stock 1.0 through 1.2. FE is not directly comparable, and if you'd ever tried that in FE you'd see why.
I was the first server to ban human piloted mortar bikes after 1.2's leading reticle made them unbalanced. Soon it became a standard rule. FE brought them back with saner physics as did ZST. Some of us believe every unit provided should be allowed in the game if at all possible and work at that goal.
Just Leave tehm Banned, they are not worth the energy that may be reqyuired to tewak, change, alter them to treach a "balanced" unit....leave them and move onto bigger issues, of which there are plenty.
with all the effort that has gone into this patch so far, actually puting the effort in to balance things now seems farly small.
I agree with a couple people. First of all, if u can fly decently with mortar bikes, basically, almost NOTHING can hit u. I know from personal experience. Just to experiment/get the players reaction, I have gone into an enemies base and flown around for 15-20 minutes just mortaring things and running out of ammo. IT IS ANNOYING FOR THE ENEMY AND ME. The commander of the enemies base gets ticked because no 1 can come up in the sky and kill me. I get annoyed because it is EXTREMELY boring just floating up in the sky. Therefore, i think that yes mtr bike SHOULD BE ALLOWED but, just hovering like a satelite above an enemies base should NOT BE ALLOWED. ThIS is a problem that should be fixed. It gets very annoying when an Mtr bike is hovering above your base nad the only way U can destroy it is by getting an Mtr bike of your own and chasing the hovering one away or destroying it.
Well I would just load up the base with service trucks. MB don't carry that much ammo, and the higher you get the harder to hit anything consistantly. I agree, it is very annoying and not much fun.
It's moot anyway, because you can't do that anymore in 1.3.
Quote from: BLUE DEVILIT IS ANNOYING FOR THE ENEMY AND ME. The commander of the enemies base gets ticked because no 1 can come up in the sky and kill me. I get annoyed because it is EXTREMELY boring just floating up in the sky.
It would be most annoying for your commander, who would be one thug down. There are other more productive things for someone to be doing to win a game.
lol trucks
pff if mtr bikes were allowed ill just give mrtr bieks to all my team... and give 2 of them mdm for your lil trucks...
Quote
Just Leave tehm Banned, they are not worth the energy that may be reqyuired to tewak, change, alter them to treach a "balanced" unit....leave them and move onto bigger issues, of which there are plenty.
and, u cant hit mrtr bieks even on the ground... it just takes the spirit of the other team...
PF, if you are high enough to out of range of GT's you won't be pinpointing tiny little service trucks. Your "lol" makes you sound stupid. I would love to play some of you loudmouths on a LAN.
While I made sure my base was being healed (RT's in base too), I would have my teamates launch an assalt on your base, with a pile of AI units.
I don't think hovering is really even necessary for a human piloted bike to be a major PITA. You just skitter around the perimeter of the base, MDMing all the defenses. Those little guys can do a lot of damage with a load of MDM's.
Haven't tried it yet in 1.3...has always been so taboo that I don't even think to try it out....will have to leave myself a note.
In the next public beta build, we should use the FE or ZST bike manuverabilty properties, see if they work fine as Ai units, and then see if pioleting them manually is undually harsh in comparision to...lets say a scout.
Exactly AV!
QuotePF, if you are high enough to out of range of GT's you won't be pinpointing tiny little service trucks. Your "lol" makes you sound stupid. I would love to play some of you loudmouths on a LAN.
While I made sure my base was being healed (RT's in base too), I would have my teamates launch an assalt on your base, with a pile of AI units.
when ur in tank u notice those "lil tiny trucks" and target them... at least in 1.2 vet starts... with DEFAULT FOV
and who said i need to outrange the gts? just strafe from side to side and u can doge all their shots
oh and why do we need lan? whats wrong with internet? if its just limited number of ppl there is no warp / lag [at least on 1.2...]
Now your talking two different issues. One minute we were talking "high flying" and mortar bombing (nose-hovering), then you change the concept to being on the ground strafing around (which I completely agree with AV about human piloted MB's on the ground). Make up your mind.
I'm playing on a laptop right now, with dial-up. I would be at a severe disadvantage (unless I was hosting, then it would be an advantage, but on the laptop I probably would still be at a disadvantage). In any event, playing over the internet is not a level playing field. That's why when I do play online, I play with my good-natured buddies who understand that I may lag out, or just suck-out because of network conditions.
I'm not saying I'm a great player, just that I'm sure I'm good enough to shut you up. I'm not one to brag about my prowess... All the women I've been with do that for me!
Well then, your laptop sucks! I play on a laptop, and get 60 fps pretty steadily, with full graphics options at 640x480.
My laptop can beat up YOUR laptop!
I believe someone ordered a bitchslap? :D
dont brag AV :D
and mower.. why do you taking everything so seriously? like the topic i told you to stop posting and start playing (i cant find it and 2 tired + lazy to serach) - i was joking :\
anyways try to get a stable computer and lets get some games rollin.. will be nice to see old players on the field
and if u wanna get back to hovering - u can still target them just fine from air.. u see their regining in the lil picture then u just target the truck.. and its not hard dodging that slow ass plasma 200 m in air
oh about ordering an attack on my base - usualy dumb thugs will try to shoot the mtr bikes and if im the cmdr or other one i belive he'll stay in a tnak / scout to defend his base + it just takes the spirit of the oppiste team... there was a good example in ZST game - where mrt bikes are less faster / better than 1.2
and they just got in a walker and the other team just gave up... it just ruined the game... not even because they did much damage...
He he he PF... I'm almost never serious or take myself too seriously. Bunch of the old timers know that about me, I just yank peoples chains all the time. I'm really harmless. If you wanna just fark around sometime and play, no bragging rights either way, fully knowing it way be crappy, then I'll jump in a game if I see ya. I'm in it for the fun.
I know it pretty easy to not get hit at 200m up... It just hard to consistantly hit stuff oln the ground from that height, while you are trying to maintain reticle position. MDM's require a direct hit to detonate, so while they do more damage, they may end up bouncing away from the intended target. Standard mortar is almost better for air bombing (less damage, but you can carry more). If you can keep a steady stream direct hit MDM's, then yeah, you're are talking about some serious damage. I would be in my base, to at least 20 service trucks and RT's (that I keep ordering to attack you anytime I can get a lock the flyer), and be doing everything I can to hose you aim at the same time. It's definitly not fun playing a game like that.
Actually AV, this laptop isn't too bad. It a 1.2 Pentium3, with a Radeon Mobility , and 256MB, which I believe is shared by the graphics chip. It runs SP at 800X600 pretty good, but stutters in big bases (or just randomly sometimes). I have to get my fried tower going again (well, fried Abit MB and Pentium4 2.4).
Ancient tech, Mower!
I've had this machine for almost two years...P4 2.1ghz, 512 ram, Radeon 9000 with its very own 64 meg. Such things are quite reasonably priced these days...though it wasn't so reasonalble at the time.
I was in the same situation you are in...fried tower, and inadequate laptop...but I made the cash sacrifice to raise bz to it's full glory!
(Didn't hurt that it was a nice fat tax deduction, but STILL....)
Yeah it is pretty ancient AV. I was surprised it would play BZ2 at all, but it much better than the P3 667, GeForce 256 32MB I started playing with. Yeah, I can't believe the prices of all computer hardware these days. You could do a nice three system LAN system to play BZ on that would be cheaper than the machine I started playing BZ2 on, and each individual machine would kick the crap out of the 667 system!
My laptop...
sucks... :oops:
just shoot exactly at the red point and walla! a perfact hit ;) (might take you 5 more secs each shot to get your aim on the red dot without falling 2 much)
and even when not hovering the base all the time... just watching mortar bikes running on the field while u cant do anything to stop them... chasing is a waste of time
shooting is a waste of ammo
and with them running back and forth to other enemy base even if its just to kill a gt or just disturb the other thugs with mortaring near them or sometiems even hit which is quite nice damage - just annoying lil bastards
Well I know it to be harder than you represent PF. I'm not saying it's not very annoying, I'm saying I would survive, pretty easily even with two or three guys bombing me from 200m straight up. Yeah, you might kill some service trucks, or take down a building, but they will get rebuilt before you can replenish your ammo..
The service trucks are a little dumber than there were in 1.2. I was against the "smart" service trucks. The service trucks were always meant to automatically service combat units (and at the time, GT's were a vehicle and not a building, but they may have been changed back), and they had to be ordered explicitly to service buildings. Now they seem to not always service vehicles right next to them, but sometimes they do, including GT's.
ya but its so damn annoying :\ and takes some of your spirit away - knowning u cant do hoot just wait to rebuild
@ Mower: Sry for digging up old stuff, but I haven't beeen here for some days: I just wanted to say, as you're calling me a loudmouth not knowing what I talk about: Although I didn't know much about real human vs human matches or the like all those years ago, I still wasn't too stupid to know what a console is and how to find a command to alter fogrange and visibility range... Of course I don't have any prove of it, but for myself, I am sure that I have won at least a dozen of instant games with just one simple stock mortar bike and no more than one or two ammo reloads; hovering above the rec far out of the range of any gunspire. TV is of course right that this was 1.0 bikes, and if I'm honest, I don't even have a clue about what changes have been made to how a bike works for a human pilot in newer versions of BZ2 so far, because, as already stated, I haven't flown any bike during the last nearly 3 years.
When I got my first 56K internet connection and tried to play some DMs in a hover bike. All those games were warpy as hell and of course human piloted units are also much quicker than AI-ones, so I hardly got any hits and when someone told me human piloted bikes were restricted, i gave up on that habit (had time enough to get bored of it in SP anyway) and moved on to real tactics ^^
So... well... I'm not a very good player either and terribly out of practise and out of time to actually play more than once a month, but still I think I'm good enough to not be shut up if you insist on challenging me for a 1on1 (which I would happily accept anytime when I've got the time).
I don't recall calling you anything. I've won many sp missions the same way. I've also played missions where service trucks and constructors heal and rebuild stuff, and it becomes not so easy. It is not easy to score direct hits consistantly from that high up. I didn't say it was impossible.