Tell us your opinions on the 1.3 patch. WE WANT TO HEAR WHAT THE PLAYERS HAVE TO SAY! :-)
Thanks, BLUE DEVIL
Love it.
Having fun. When my video card doesn't lock up on me. Grr.
Much better then 1.2, i stop playing bz2 a while ago because 1.2 was definatly too buggy and there is lots of game out there that were better for online gaming. But now that 1.3 is out and after trying it for over 2 week i can say it rox. I wouldnt go back to 1.2 for nothing in the world, so count me in!
I almost cried the first time i played it. I love it.
I Must be playin' a Different 1.3......
Well, I have only played online briefly... Can't ever find a 1.3 game with peeps I know.
I like it for the modding potential, it has opened up quite a few things that were ney impossible before.
I like 1.3 (beta) for its stability. Although there are still a couple of places where I freeze (most probably due to my OS and firewall and cannot be reproduced accurately for debugging), a lot of the major freezes and slowdowns of 1.2 are pretty much gone. The only hiccups I see for now are when harddisk accessing occurs ingame. Too bad solid-state ATA flash drives are still prohibitively way beyond my budget.
My 2 cents (<-- my budget)
1.3 fixes and ruins some stuff from 1.2
1.3 could've been great if they would've just fix whats broken, and not the other stuff...
i also dont like the nathan's aditude at all, treating us like hoot which causes me to hate his work even more....
and the overall community in 1.3 (at least the community i see when i play) isnt that nice as well.... i tell some1 to die and get back to base instead of calling the 3ed full scout i made from him to him and the scout died on the way 3 times... i told him ill give him a ship if he'll get back to bsae and told him to die as a piot and he tells me its cheating and that im an asshole...
also, the warp is unplayable, i havnt played on decent servers because there are no decent servers in 1.3.. all the decent servers prefer 1.2
and alot of other bugs that needs fixing but it seems they wont get fixed cause nathan left and no1 heard from ken for along time from what i understood...
ill play a game of 1.3 every week or something maybe there'll be some changes - although i doubt it
I can agree with that 1.3 should have just concentrated on fixing what was broken instead of changing things.
The resistant to criticism on the project has been way too extreme, by all concerned not just GSH. The desire to stamp out "cheating exploited bugs" seems to have driven this project to an imposition rather than an inspiring improvement.
I think an honest effort was made to come up with improvements.
Some things did get improved, but the overall performance of the game play, leaves you feeling like they took all the fun out of it.(sluggish physics, warping units, etc.)
The editor completely seperated from the game is inconvenient since dll's do not run. This means you bring up the editor, load the map to edit, make your changes, save your changes, exit the editor, open BZ2 1.3 executable, go through all the menus, bring up your map in the environment where it needs testing, check for errors, and repeat.
It takes way too much time to try editting a map in this environment. I am still better off to use 1.2 for editting and testing then convert to 1.3 afterwards.
So in short, the editor was not an improvement.
Overall, with exception to the editor, I think 1.3 will be useable after some tweeks.
I think 1.3 is a great success, I have done all the single player missions all over again and there was not one bug in the entire missions. Sound, graphics etc are much improved. I would like to personally thank all the people who helped to do this cause it took a lot of hours, days, weeks, months etc ALL IN THEIR OWN TIME and I want to personally thank them. I would hope others would stop whinging then maybe we can get a final release in time which with then enable Forgotten Enemies to be finalised then some of the extra mods that are being worked on now done. People must remember this game is five years old but it is still going strong so long live Battlezone II and all you programmers and modders. Once again thanks for your time in keeping this wonderful game going.
It is cheating to get youself killed for the express ride back to base. 1.3 was supposed to fix that (by having you dropped from a height that makes it no advantage).
The fool should have just jet packed back to base, or hopped the whole way.
Its cheating to die to get back to base quickly??
Wow, after over 3 years of online play, thats news to me. These types of statements make it evident to me why the 1.3 patch is failing miserably to gain acceptance by the vast majority of active online players.
For my opinion of 1.3 please click the following:
http://bzuniverse.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=1863&sid=235d5786dcef993a422bb5032be33b30
omg recon u killed yourself to get btb?? :o
ure cheating for more then 3 years
omg! u should be global banned!!
I like 1.3. Its a much more handsome playing experience overall than 1.2 and its hard to go back to 1.2 after playing some 1.3 strats. 1.3 games rarely crash or lag out comparing to 1.2 and with MWF 2 I get hardly any warp.
There are still some major issues:
- 1.3 scavs (and other treaded units) get stuck on structures and units much more than in 1.2 and need a lot micromanagement
- Id like the 1.2 ship physics be restored
- FIXME (tracked physics going bezerk) bug crashes about one in five games
- tugs/haulers have problems to pickup stuff
and a couple of minor glitches I can live with.
I always felt that getting killed to get back to base intensified the game play and made it more fun, cheating it is not,
now take for instance the fact that the new ai will shoot the pilots faster if you happen to be in the enemy base when destroyed, you are now penalised twice , 1 for losing youre ship while attacking and 2 ur ass is that high u need a 747 to get back down again and ur base could get raped while doing so.
i feel that most aspects of 1.2 were possible to counter, deliberate av's, alt tabbing and mwf1 suck other than that it's possible to be able to do whatever the other guy can with a degree of practice.
I certainly dont find 1.3 less warpy infact more so in strats, mpi's are fine yeh,infact 1.3 mpi's are better than 1.2.
furthermore i have already seen the tendency for commanders to move the base turrets to a center pools area from start, rush the other guys try to kill the wings and then bottle neck the game within the first 3 minutes.
ive been in and played many many 3 hr strats in FE, currently i havnt found that 1.3 is more stable in strats, though it is in MPI.
BTW i have been playing 1.3 for 2 years now and i still prefure FE.
Fact is i see a lot of people coming back to bz because of the patch when the true fans never stopped playing it and dealt with the bugs in any way possible.
it's good to have players back but experiance does matter and a lot of people have thousands of hours and currency spent on this game.
"I certainly dont find 1.3 less warpy infact more so in strats, mpi's are fine yeh,infact 1.3 mpi's are better than 1.2."
This is exactly true and directly related to the fact that there were virtually no real player vs Player strats in the closed beta(in spite of the noble efforts by the RIPpers to play them.
Also, thepilot drop thing was reviewed with Nathan Months ago and like most things (I and most of the player vs player straters) told him...ignored.
The pilot drop thing can be changed, you know. It sits in the Multiplayer DLLs.
Here, I will even give a snippit of code from the strat dll source released.
Vector OldPos;
// As this object was just killed, gotta use the slower search for its
// position.
GetPosition2(DeadObjectHandle,OldPos);
// Find out how far we are away from starting location... use
// default if couldn't get position of DeadObjectHandle
float RespawnHeight=RespawnPilotHeight;
if((fabsf(OldPos.x) > 0.01f) && (fabsf(OldPos.z) > 0.01f)) {
// Position valid. Use it.
float DistanceAway=sqrtf((OldPos.x-Where.x) * (OldPos.x-Where.x) +
(OldPos.z-Where.z) * (OldPos.z-Where.z));
#ifdef _DEBUG
char TempStr[1024];
sprintf(TempStr,"Distance away = %7.2f from (%3.2f %3.2f) (%3.2f %3.2f)",
DistanceAway,OldPos.x,OldPos.z,Where.x,Where.z);
AddToMessagesBox(TempStr);
#endif
RespawnHeight=DistanceAway * 0.6f;
if(RespawnHeight < 100.0f)
RespawnHeight = 100.0f;
else if(RespawnHeight > 500.0f)
RespawnHeight = 500.0f;
}
In any game, suicide should not be a valid tactic. I can't believe anyone would even argue the point.
Yes Wiz..we realize it CAN be changed, MY frustration is Nathan was told of its' adverse effect on Player vs Player strats yet he chose NOT to fix or attempt to correct it.
*IF* Nathan ever chooses to return and work on 1.3 it(among 100 other things ) need fixing because they were not "fixed" during closed beta inspite of many testers requests and explanations of WHY they should have been fixed..
Suicide is a valid tactic in BF'42 when your plane gets shot down over water.
Well in most games, that are designed with any logic whatsoever, suicide is not a valid tactic. Many games sit you out until the map changes, or you are in "limbo" for a time period. Suicide being a valid tactic, means poor game design. Self-preservation should always rule.
I give you an example of a couple of games that self-preservation is key...
BattleZone (you only get 5 lives)
BattleZone2 Single-Player (lost life = game over)
It was an admitted mistake in BZ2 development, and was fixed. I am still in disbelief that anyone would argue that suicide should be a valid tactic. Yeah, that takes a lot of skill to stand in front of a GT or turret. There should be an adverse effect is you get you ass shot up!!!
Unbelieveable!!!!
It speeds up the game play and helps make the game more fun. No further justification is required. I think this is almost exclusively a team strat issue; not applicable in single player, and in MPI, well, who knows what goes on in that twisted AI brain. :twisted:
as aougli said.. it adds to the game speed.. unless u want a *strat* only game...
go play one of the C&C's and 200 more stratergy game...
death is vaild tactic in LOTS of games...
ever heard of
/kill in ET?
u kill yourself 1 sec before the spawn to get ammo / health if u need... or just to be an ass and avoid some1 from getting points (which is lame and just wrong.. but if ur hidden and spawn is near its cool)
OMFG!!! I can't believe rational people are saying this (maybe I give to much credit).
You are not supposed to get yourself killed on purpose!!! There is absolutly no good reason to make suicide a valid tactic. It is bad design, and cheap gameplay. For christ's sake I can't believe it!!!
It NEVER sped up the game for me, because I've never done it!!! I can still be quite productive hopping across the map, or jetpacking.
I'm dumbfounded that I have to explain that keeping your ass alive should be an advantage.
Why not when you ship gets blown up, you instantly get a new one. It would make the game quicker... No lines, no waiting!!!
QuoteIt NEVER sped up the game for me, because I've never done it!!!
LOL
it just sounds funny :P
well.. u still need some time to get in the ship and go back to w/e u did...
a counter tactic is have no defense (for 1v1 or something...)
then u kill him in your base and well - he's *Ammo*ed... no way to get back home while u domniate the whole map (including his base)
bz2 is action, just like other action game - u die at some point and respawn.... its not LMS
if u play a reguler FPS game - u die - u respawn...
respawning quickly was always a tactic...
is there anygame where u cant kill yourself?
it defently adds more to the action of the game...
[which i might add 1.3 is defently taking away... the action the game had]
oh and it cost you scrap (giving them your ship scrap + build new ship) thats enough punshiment.. and the time to land is long enough (from your blown ship.. not the hight u start in 1.3 - which i think is ridicouls [its just 2 high]
Don't get too tangled in that arguement, Mower. You might have your opponents jumping off bridges to prove their point.
As for the original topic, I LOVE 1.3. I wept tears of joy when I saw the little dudes come barreling out of the APCs', and the APC's actually land instead of bouncing around endlessly.
I love the improved AI, and how you can take a couple of AI wings with you and actually have them help out in a dogfight against humans.
I love that I havent' had a single crash since I put 1.3 on.
I love that so many unmentionable cheats and hacks were fixed.
I love that the AI is smart enough to know when to hold em, know when to fold em, know when to use secondary weaps, and know when to run!
I love that the AI is smart, but not TOO smart.
I love that 1.3 has realized the potential of this game, finally, after all these years.
I LOVE IT!
PRAISE BE TO KEN AND NATHAN, DELIVERERS OF THE ALMIGHTY PATCH!
Really AV!!! I'm LMFAO as I explain "Staying alive is good..." *cue's the BeeGees*
The height at which you are spawned is relative to how far away from your own base. You die in your base, and you are right there (just a few meters up). Die in the enemy base across the map, you spawn a few hundred meters up. An extremely good fix indeed! One of the things I absolutly LOVE about 1.3 (along with all the things AV listed)
Respawn Penalty: [Off] [On]
There has always been the option to have limited lives, like BZ1...but nobody ever uses it. I liked things that way....there was a helluva lot of suspense in trying to sneak back to base...or hunting down the guy you just shot out of his ship.
I think the reason people don't use it has to do with the lives being cumulative across the team. Losing your ship is bad. Losing the game for your team because you kept getting squished is just too much to bear.
Spawning high is actually a good thing in this respect. You can't be spawnkilled as easily. Maybe I'll start suggesting we use the life limit in games.
Which reminds me....I'll be able to host again soon! I'm getting a full time 144k ISDL connection out to the Ranchito de Vulgaris! No more 64K ISDN with henious per-minute charges! TWO static IP's! Life is good!
That's rich, the one thing that should never be a shell option, is now suggested to be an option.
I'll go for it if the buttons are labled
[good game design] = death penalty on
[ bad game design ] = death penalty off
AV the newbs complain we wont let them play like this, with death limits they have no chance
theres a reason every1 plays like that and no1 does other stuff, people find it the best and the most fun, if the majority doesnt like something (at least we, "the vets community") we 'ban' it...
e.g mortar bikes... whoever drives one when his rec still up usuasly getting warning / kicked
we know whats the best for us.. some ppl disagree - they can host themselfs then... its not dedicated servers here - every1 can host his own game with his own options, espicley in this current 1.3
Mower it seems u argue for the sake of arguing.
A lot of strats i have played in are ones with fast action and lots of fun, it's not always about how or why but more to do with what works and what gives the biggest thrill.
now i take it you don't know how we play in RIP nor perhaps care but weve never been base rapers or must win at all costs players but we have always been lets get as much fun as possible from the game that we love.
i don't know if you play online much now what with our time differences being different etc but it seemed like you have been away a while, perhaps youve lost touch with how the game is played online currently and should venture out sometime.
Now lets see what has truly kept bz alive, ahh yes the fun of the fight "FUN"
and "Adrenalin"
No Fried, I am arguing from the point of logic, good game design, and what makes sense. AV stated it aptly, in that you are supposed to make it back to you base, and the related suspense in doing so. In BZ1 you ALWAYS hunted down ejected pilots (even ai ones, because their number was limited), because that was the win condition of the game.
Anybody that thinks that suicide should be a valid advantageous tactic doesn't have a clue about game design. It's illogica, bad design, and there is not one good reason for supporting it. It is more fun to have the suspense of keeping your ass alive after you lost your ride.
Why not just make it so that if you get youself killed, you instantly respawn, with the most powerful upgraded tank you can get. Just an extrapolation of the same logic, so that would make the game even better.
Those who argue for suicide are the ones arguing for the sake of arguing. There is absolutly no logic to support such a concept, so what ever is typed in support of such a concept is condensed owl hoot.
It was NEVER supposed to be that way in BZ2. It was an oopsie!!! Seems like some here are being dense for the sake of being dense!
mower...
leave the boards NOW and go play ;)
ive thought we got to the point that logic and reailty and all that should be left aside?
some geams are like that and some games are other
bz1 and bz2 have some big difrences... pilots are one of them...
i dont know but maybe acti thought that all the pilot issue is a bit annoying
i cant say if they are wrong or right on this... but this is how bz2 is... it became a tactic in bz2 and i realy dont understand whats wrong with it...
bz1 have some great stuff bz2 dont have but the other way around... its 2 difrent games... some imagnation and the main idea is the same (action + startergy)
and, sometimes on deathmatchs u do spawn with the best unit.. not exactly like that but theres the duels...
u start with your ship.. and go get your weapons then fight some1 1v1, fair fight
First of all, don't tell me what to do. I play when I want to play, and I post when I want to post.
Second, it was a mistake to have suicide be advantageous. Do you understand the word MISTAKE. Get it??? A design flaw. Any arguement to support suicide is flawed logic.
In case you missed it, because I have never thrown it around much, but I was on the design tream, my name is in the credits for BZ2. Get a clue, for four months prior to BZ2's released, I communicated with the designers and programmers of BZ2 on a daily basis. I was also a BETA tester for BZ1. I also tested maps extensivly for Toni Chaffin and Mick Brown (the guys who did TRO), and not to mention Avatar also. I have been into computer gaming since 1980 when I got my Atari 800 (was president of the local Atari Computer Enthusiasts for four years). I have a collection of Avalon Hill Bookshelf games (strategy board games), and was an avid chess player for many years. I have a Physics degree, and worked for GE Aerospace (that would be General Electric, every heard of it?) for 13 years, Westinghouse Oceanic for a year, as an engineer. I've designed components for hovering lawn mowers and I have three US patents (more coming).
Yes, I have a clue!
I love it because it "is" so different.
Speaking as a major BZ1 fan, BZ2 was always missing too much.
It felt like it was rushed to store shelves incomplete and 1.3 proves there was so much more it should have shipped with.
Had FE not come out as great as it did, I would have never got into BZ2 as much as I do now.
1.3 has made this game something I always knew it could be.
Not perfect but so much better than the original Battlezone II, it's the closest thing to a Battlezone 3 we'll more than likely ever see.
Great work guys.
Thanks DX... I will mail out your copy of the BZ1 BETA now (payment in full he he he). It's sitting right here in a AOL mailer case (for months sheeesh!). Maybe even tomorrow (should be going to the post office).
Quote from: MowerMan
Why not just make it so that if you get youself killed, you instantly respawn, with the most powerful upgraded tank you can get. Just an extrapolation of the same logic, so that would make the game even better.
Don't forget the 70 virgins! A flying rave tank with 70 virgins perched on top!
Yeah AV!!! Great idea!!!!
Nathan!!! Ken!!! Get back here!!! We know how to "fix" BZ2!!!!
*wipes away tears of laughter*
Logic and Reality are false gods! Fun and Reason are true!
err, anyway, dieing as a pilot is a scratch; you die when both the Rec and Factory are dead.
Seems people had fun in BZ1; good. I've never played it, and it's unlikely I'll start now.
If respawning in top of the range vehicles increased enjoyment of the game I'd be in favour of it, but I don't think it would, so I'm not. Getting back to base quickly (it'll cost you a sniper rifle the first time) aids enjoyment of the game, so I like it.
Fortunately, the respawn issue is not a significant point.
I was talking about the logic of fun. Staying alive is fun... Dying should be a bummer, not an advantage.
So you like the 70 virgins idea???
New rule for Chess... You lose your Queen, you instantly get two back, and you get to place them anywhere you want on the chessboard!
god i hate it when mowermans right, it takes the fun out of life.
you guys are alright,,,,,a little weird but alright,,,,hahahahahaha
When your dead, your dead and I aught to know right?
When I objected to this in the "closed beta" this was part of the rationale:
(I will paraphrase TV)
BZ 2 is a Time game as much as strategy or dogfighting, managing time and SCARP are equally important elements to victory as any of the other 4.
The "concept" of a death penalty to discourage suicide(as a means to get the quick trip home) is a valid Idea..its the DEGREE to which the spawn height kicks in that is the problem.
Again, not the fact that there is now a penalty....the problem is the TIME that penalty effects.
BZ 2 is a very time sensitive games, the loss of a wingman or a commander at a in-oportune moment can be the difference between victory and defeat....Now with a penalty so great, a player penalized far too much in a game that is already extremely time sensitive.
Additionally, the penalty further widens the gap between vets and "not-so-vets" because as the "not-so's" lose their ships, they are penalized more for the loss of ship, by virtue that they are longer "outta action" and as a result theri teammates suffer the loss of a wingman or worse the commander.
I'm not even touching the myriad of potential complications to game length issues...don't even get me started there.
I was ok at the Respawn height adjusting to "distance from base"...But I felt all along the maximum heights for respawn point should have been 50% of the current levels.
Quote from: BZ FeebleEffort
Additionally, the penalty further widens the gap between vets and "not-so-vets" because as the "not-so's" lose their ships, they are penalized more for the loss of ship, by virtue that they are longer "outta action" and as a result theri teammates suffer the loss of a wingman or worse the commander.
Not sure about that; they may be waiting for a ship anyway: people who keep loosing ships don't get new ones fast.
I think the new 'spawn height' is superbe. It really makes you 'care' about your ship. It also stop 'scav spammers' from being as succesful and also means that you do not get as many spawn kills (e.g. flaming a turret near the rec used to cause massive lag and a string of spawn kills).
Its better now. I see absolutly no reason to change it. Anyway!
from a 'realism' persepctive it makes sense, your being drop-shipped into the combat zone :)
Anyone remember that single player mission where you did not have a rec? You started high into the air with that one.
Also, with the not-so-good players.....they just got spawn killed 100s of times before hand anyway. Not to mention that it hurts a vet just as much as it hurts a non vet, they both spawn same height.
The new height works.
Life must be no fun at all for you Sponge!!! (ha ha ha Just kidding)
U think we could get a set of wings in that backpack and a couple of miniguns so i can blast a few people next time im spawn killed. James Bond style indeed.
Seems to me that designs don't always work and very often what works well wasnt meant to be in the first place.
The whole things about this, is how it was meant to be is a mute argument, afterall wasnt we all meant to be fungus in the beginning but evolved to be ranting and raging humans in the end.
Hmm come to think about it. things could get damn right scary in another million years or so. :shock: :twisted:
While I do like the way the time penalty is implemented, I'd go even farther with it. I'd have people respawn 2 meters underground in the spot they died, and make them dig themselves out before they could head home....and they'd walk dragging a leg, with their arms out in front of them, whispering 'braaaaains.....braaainsssssssss....'.
The current system still rewards suicides by getting you home faster than you could have under your own power...just not as much. We DO have the jetpack, after all, which greatly reduces the time it takes to get home, and greatly increases the chances of getting there in one piece.
If I have a noob that's out there losing ships, I tend to hold back on building new ones a bit to cut my losses. If he takes longer getting home, he'll be pestering me for a new ship for a shorter period of time.
The current system is a good compromise. I beleive the intent was to curb the chain rush/lose ship/die/grab empty/chain rush again tactic....which isn't terribly fun for the rushers and is decidedly un-fun for the rush-ee's.
Feeb is right, in that it does penalize poorer pilots compared to how things were, but poorer pilots are going to lose anyhow. However, sometimes it's GOOD for the team to have a poor pilot out of a ship for a while...he'll be more careful with the next one if he knows he'll be grounded.
Quote
The current system is a good compromise. I beleive the intent was to curb the chain rush/lose ship/die/grab empty/chain rush again tactic....which isn't terribly fun for the rushers and is decidedly un-fun for the rush-ee's.
accutly - just few trucks and some def (or u and/or team m8s in blast tanks / laser scouts) and every1 will be happy... the rushers will feel hope at start while the defenders will just thank them for the loose :)
And thats the balence that has been achived right now.
The current 'spawn height' is neigh on perfect.
i guess its alright once u get used to... but i still love the 1.2 one... and some others as well... i prefer 1.2 one but can live with 1.3... :P
Personally, I love 1.3 except for one crucial aspect...
Modding is worse in 1.3 than 1.2
It is frustrating to have to use an alternate program.
If 1.32 comes out, undo the seperation of the editor with the main BZ2 executable.
That was the biggest mistake Ken/Nathan did.
QuoteModding is worse in 1.3 than 1.2
:shock:
(and yes, that's the first time I've ever used the eyebulging smiley on ANY board.
After having a few more games, i'd have to say the netcode seems to be better in some areas then my experiences with 1.2. I can actually hit people while in a blast tank now. Also, the netcode does a slightly better job of recovering from client freezeups. A little tweaking might be needed so that its better in all aspects.
Great job on that!
Quote from: BZDraconianPersonally, I love 1.3 except for one crucial aspect...
Modding is worse in 1.3 than 1.2
It is frustrating to have to use an alternate program.
If 1.32 comes out, undo the seperation of the editor with the main BZ2 executable.
That was the biggest mistake Ken/Nathan did.
I disagree. Having to run a seperate editor is a small price to pay for removing the biggest MP cheat around...
The only major obstacle is the editor's inability to run the DLL scripting, which I don't find a big deal anymore. Just set up two shortcuts to your map, one for the editor and one for the engine. If you need to watch things toss in a high-altitude scout or snipable enemy craft.
-Av-
"Modding is worse in 1.3 than 1.2"
Pfft.
lol
:?
funny people
Quote from: Avatar
I disagree. Having to run a seperate editor is a small price to pay for removing the biggest MP cheat around...
MP cheating has never been a big issue, and it´s easy to avoid edited MP games.
I was not once in an MP strat game that was edited.
And editing the MPI's was fun :) It was cool to do things like have a cerberi rec in FE
Quote from: Jwk the Hemp MonkeyI was not once in an MP strat game that was edited.
And editing the MPI's was fun :) It was cool to do things like have a cerberi rec in FE
Quote from: GJCMP cheating has never been a big issue, and it´s easy to avoid edited MP games.
How do you know? I mean, how do you know you've never been in an edited MP game, or that it's not a big issue.
The only time you'd know is if the host was stupid enough to blatantly flaunt his editing in front of you. A subtle cheater would use it
just enough to tip the scales in their favor...
No, I stand by my assertion that this, the most insidious of the few MP cheats possible in BZ2, is better off gone from MP. I agree that the Editor should be the full BZ2 engine without the MP part rather than the cripple it is now, but that can be easily done once 1.3 is finished. All Nathan has to do is give us the game without the editor for MP play, and the game without MP for SP/IA/editing and we'd be set.
-Av-
Quote from: AvatarHow do you know? I mean, how do you know you've never been in an edited MP game, or that it's not a big issue.
We know because we play BZ2 online often, very often. For one thing you cannot MP edit a game without first starting it alone. This is almost unheard of in strat games, since synch join is the prefered method of beginning the game. Edited games also tend to gamestate heavily.
It simply is *not* an issue except for those who debate more than they play.
The AV chat attack is the single most malicious bug quashed by the 1.3 patch. It's how the patch first got its start. Unfortunately the attack was leaked via an overly explicit changelog, cursing multiplayers with it ever since patch was announced (2 and 1/2 years now). This bug has probably contributed to BZ2s overall multiplayer decline more than any other, where a sore loser can terminate any game he likes. Not MP editing. Patch 1.21 announced 8/10/01 (http://www.bzuniverse.com/~bz2cp/forum/forum.php?t=topic&fn=1&tn=589&tf=oldpand&lang=1en)
Quote from: Avatar
How do you know? I mean, how do you know you've never been in an edited MP game, or that it's not a big issue.
I played a lot and Ive been in a few edited games. Edited games are always already running when you join, which very rarely happens with legal games.
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The only time you'd know is if the host was stupid enough to blatantly flaunt his editing in front of you. A subtle cheater would use it just enough to tip the scales in their favor...
LOL the few edited games I was in the cheaters had edited themselves a whole city of upgraded extractors somewhere off map and still they lost vs some mediocre players on the legal team. I mean, come on, its so extremely easy to recognize an edited game, and you can decide either to make some fun of the cheater of just leave the game. And if you really feel that offended by an edited game you just have to stick to games that havent started yet when you join. Really no need for invasive surgical actions to the game.
Again, sounds like those doing it were doing so blatantly. Obviously you 'vets' recognized the signs right off. :) (try to be more subtle, TV, really... lol)
The real issue was whether or not such things could be done more subtly. Just because you haven't seen anyone with a more advanced form of the cheat doesn't mean it couldn't be forthcoming. Someone with true programming skills may be, right now, working on a way of enabling the Editor at will AFTER a game starts.
I think this is what Nathan feared, not the idiots dropping Walkers on you two minutes into the game. The current 'surgical fix' is the only sure way to do so. There's no reason the current editor can't be made more whole, it just wasn't high on the list lately.
Nobody has yet to give me a good reason for the editor to be part of the MP enabled engine... unless there's some reason only a 'vet' would know.
-Av-
*sigh* no point to argue with someone who has no freaking idea what he is talking about ... again ... this is what gives this board such a bad name outside
How about Editor enabeled for everything except Human Strats....
That way everyone can still enjoy fiddeling around against the computer (and who cares if we fiddle around against the computer ey?) or make new and wild DM maps.
Quote from: GJC*sigh* no point to argue with someone who has no freaking idea what he is talking about ... again ... this is what gives this board such a bad name outside
Ouch.
The bad name comes from making it a personal issue rather than actually answering the real questions...
Since you don't seem to know what those are let me list them:
What reason is there to have the Editor available in any form in the MP capable version of the game?
What harm does removing the editor from the MP capable version of the engine do?
Why would anyone who's a true "MP Vet" object to removing something that is now (for n00bz at least) and might one day be abused? (assuming they're not so short-sighted that they don't realize that pretty much anything in the game is a target for 'hackers')
The complaint is that the current chopped editor sucks. Nobody has an issue with that and assuming Ken and Nathan actually do return to work on things I'm sure a new version will fix that.
I find it odd that 'Vets' would
ever argue FOR a return of the editor to the main engine. It's too big of a risk for the future...
-Av-
Quote from: Jwk the Hemp MonkeyHow about Editor enabeled for everything except Human Strats....
That way everyone can still enjoy fiddeling around against the computer (and who cares if we fiddle around against the computer ey?) or make new and wild DM maps.
That's how it was. Creative idiots always seem to find a way around restrictions. The only sure way of making sure nobody figures out further editor exploits in MP is to remove that portion of the code completely. I'm sure it was much easier to remove the Editor from the engine than come up with an MP Client without it. The current Editor hack is a temporary fix for modders until Nathan has time to work on it.
*sigh*
-Av-
was in an mpi game.. the host went to other team alrgiht - i dont give a hoot.. 1v1 and the comp will help him
we go on.. bla bla... then he started poping out mtr bikes and rocket tanks near my base.. i killed them - new ones.. he had like 50 waves before it got me down... pure laming
then he tells me i should be proud i survived against all odds
Was that in 1.2 or in 1.3? That bug should be fixed in 1.3. If it happened in 1.3, the host found a new exploit.
Lol, i've played as 'Team Computer' once or twice for fun. Really, if anyone joins on the computer team, you'll know because it will say "Team Computer joined session", all you have to do is /kick Team_Computer and there you go. Besides, that 'cheat' has nothing to do with the editor, its a console command.
And heres Avatar, trying to act like he knows something, when he's just as ignorant as any forum hanger who doesnt actually play the game.
"try to be a little more subtle, really TV". What kind of a cheap shot is that?
ZA that is rude and wrong. Avatar knows how to play well, and write programs. He is approaching the "opening" to cheating conceptually. If it is a possibility, than someone will figure out how to do it.
By my reasoning, Avatar has shown himself to be far more knowledgable of BZ/BZ2 than most of the self-proclaimed "experts".
Editing in Strat games is not a problem; simply dont join a game where the host has already started alone.
Editing in MPI is not a problem, how can the host cheat? by giving his (and your) team extra scrap pools?
Editing in DM is not a problem, its obvious if a player has 10 AI walkers.
Now, lets say that hypothetically, someone does write a program to edit strat games in session. What makes you think that it wont resync like crazy? Editing pretty much pauses the game and stops multiworld activity as far as i'm aware, which is probably why those who are trying to join a game thats currently been edited will sit in gamestate until the editor is closed. If you think that the telltale resyncs of a pre-edited game are bad, just imagine how bad it will be when a person opens up an editor in session...
MM. Your reasoning is flawed, I dare you to tell me where i'm wrong.
QuoteThe current Editor hack is a temporary fix for modders until Nathan has time to work on it.
Thats all you had to say.
Hmm. ZA and others:
It doesnt matter what you *think* is possible online.
it doesnt matter what Avatar *thinks* is possible online.
Neither of you have the training nor the possiblity to look at the source of bz2 and figure it out.
Nathan on the other hand, has both. And he decided it is best to split game and editor. Now there are draw backs. But before you cannot prove me (and you can't) that Nathan is wrong, YOU are wrong.
gg
Quote from: Zero AngelAnd heres Avatar, trying to act like he knows something, when he's just as ignorant as any forum hanger who doesnt actually play the game.
"try to be a little more subtle, really TV". What kind of a cheap shot is that?
Well, Mower defended me honorably but here's my 2Cents.
TV put in a not-so-subtle dig against me in his message:
Quote from: TimeVirusIt simply is *not* an issue except for those who debate more than they play.
You see, as much as I respect his (and FE/WD, and DF, and many more) knowledge and views on Strat, TV is among those who's "we're REAL players" attitude grates on my nerves. We're all 'real' players and the conceit of the Strat players is amazing. Just because you can't get a Gamespy list of those modding, or playing SP, or on LAN only games, doesn't make them 'unreal' players. He's also dead wrong on it *not* being an issue. More later in bold.
ZA, you (and TV, and WD/FE, and GJC, etc.) assume that because I don't show up in YOUR games I'm not a 'real' player. It all goes back to why I put 'Vets' in quotes. To me saying 'Vets' is saying 'stuck up arrogant short-sighted snobs'.
That doesn't mean I disrespect them, though, far from it.
I bow to their knowledge of Strat and never contradict them for things I don't understand. The Editor I DO understand and believe me, having that code in the same engine as the MP code is dangerous for no good reason. Your 'just don't join' remark shows your ignorance. How many n00bs were scared away from BZ2 because they didn't know that and jumped into an edited game?
It also shows your lack of imagination. They don't have to DROP things in the game to use it, how about they pop into it locall just to watch every thing you're doing, like a 'super comm bunker'? Will that enhance your Strat game any? Think outside the box, like hackers do, before you speak.Let's get back to the 'real player'crap. In fact I probably spend more time in BZ2 than any two of you 'real' Strat players combined as it's the only game I mess with and I have no other addictions. I just don't play Strat. Ice and I used to play MPI a lot before his head exploded (long story) but lately all I do is MOD. I've got four Races almost done, by myself, a feat even FE can't top. Am I not a 'real' player? Can't I discuss things from a point of view you 'Vets' obviously aren't considering? Isn't that what this forum is for?
I don't enjoy Strat with humans mostly because of this 'Vet' attitude. I've had very few fun games with 'Vets'. I miss the COW days and loved messing around in DMs with the guys. I'm sad that so few of my group took to BZ2 as I really thought the CTF and Race modes would be a blast with people who's egos weren't defined by how many hours they've played the same other people in one version of an almost dead game...
'nuff said.
-Av-
Quote
To me saying 'Vets' is saying 'stuck up arrogant short-sighted snobs'.
I am deeply offended by that statement. I've been an asshole since WAY before I started playing battlezone.
My apologies. Anyone who can jerk Mower's chain is OK in my book... :)
-Av-
quote:
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To me saying 'Vets' is saying 'stuck up arrogant short-sighted snobs'.
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That was uncalled for. That statement is incorrect. We (vets) are not short sighted snobs. Some of us are actually kind and friendly. I know some ppl who aren't but we are the ones who are gonna keep playing BZ2 till the end. When every 1 leaves :cry: the vets are the ones who will still be playing. I am definitely NOT a newb hater. I respect all of the BZ2 players. So, no, not all vets are "stuck up arrogant short-sighted snobs".
Not all 'vets'are stuck up noobs at all. Infact, most of the vets i know are gentlemen....(notice....use of the word 'most')
there are asses and snobs everywhere...
in a small community like ours i guess u can pick them off easily...
Quote from: AcneVulgarisQuote
To me saying 'Vets' is saying 'stuck up arrogant short-sighted snobs'.
I am deeply offended by that statement. I've been an asshole since WAY before I started playing battlezone.
lol
I generally avoid generalizations... ;)
You'd have to have been there when the 'private' 1.3 beta hit the point where the 'real' players started dissing the 'not real' players over MP points. It was a bad scene. To see that attitude still around, or in fact coming back to the surface upsets me. I don't disrespect anybody's contribution to this work, as there's always value in another point of view. Nobody can think of everything, that's why there are betas...
It doesn't matter if I play MP every night or not, as a veteran gamer and part-time coder I recognize the possibility of abuse further down the road, perhaps when Ken and Nathan are completely gone. At that point there wouldn't be a single person from this thread that would come on and say "Sorry guys, we were too short-sighted to realize this would happen. We actually fought to have the editor put back in..."
I'm dumfounded that any MP player would ever argue FOR the editor code being in the same engine as the MP code. Many games specifically split the editor from MP just to avoid the inevitable abuse that springs up when the real coders start playing with the engine. Not that that's likely to happen but why risk it?
I think back to Diablo, a game I thoroughly enjoyed but you know what? The first time I was fireballed in town was the last time I played MP. That's all it took to turn me off.
-Av-
Yeah can relate to that - flying rave bombers in BZ1 was enough for me. Looks like UT 2004 is a dead end too, seen enough blatant cheating already. Damn shame.
The only thing wrong with the editor is the DLL's will not work. A testing area with functioning DLL's with no network code what so ever is needed. The biggest amount of map "tweaking" goes on in final stages of map development. Art changes here and there, Shift F9 mode points getting added or moved. Just some kind of testing envirnment, otherwise the editor is seriously inconvenient and just plain not worthwhile to use for anying but maybe conversions from 1.2 to 1.3
Quote from: Avatar"Sorry guys, we were too short-sighted to realize this would happen. We actually fought to have the editor put back in..."
I recommend you to have your balls amputated ASAP, you know, they might grow a cancer some day ...
I'm sure the appropriate comeback would be "Maybe you could tell me who did yours? They did such a good job I'd like to use the same surgeon."
:)
Again you go personal rather than rationally discuss the issue.
*sigh*
Kids...
-Av-
*raises eyebrow*
What is this rubbish. Be polite to eachother and stop making nasty cracks, ironically..its imature and pointless.
You're absolutely correct. Enough nonsense.
I apologize to Blue Devil for any part I've played in hijacking his thread. I'm sure he didn't intend for it to devolve into flaming discussions about moot points.
-Av-
Flaming about moot points is the inevitable destination of all threads.
I call it 'thread senility' for lack of a better term.
I prefer the 'thread event horizon' theory that may or may not include this mathematical theorem devised and researched by penny arcade.
Whether or not this theorem applies to any members on this board has yet to be defined.
(http://www.penny-arcade.com/images/2004/20040319l.jpg)
If I am correct, MULTIWORLD is off in multiplayer 1.3
(maybe only MPI) until another person joins.
Perhaps the editor could be activated within normal
bzII exe allowing mods with dlls running, UNTIL
multiworld is required, then it could end/crash whatever.
This would allow our preffered modes of editing and
disallow cheating online.
OMG was that bit of sarcasm already too hard for you?
And of course Im getting personal, a rational argument with you about this subject is lacking any basis. As I stated already in a former post.
Same as the 'age of the community' thread:
Next post to directly attack someone in this thread will be banned.
I am sick and tired of some immature members of our community to abuse their right to say whats on their mind.
I know I cant watch over the whole board. But I can focus on a few threads like this one ;)
Well, as long as you are not bias on who you 'ban' and you have 0 tolerence to rudeness, then i am happy.
Thank you very much fishbone. Yes, this is geting out of hand. Most of u are acting like 5 year olds. Always arguing. This is getting very annoying. THE GENERAL TOPIC OF THIS CHAT BOARD WAS, "HOW DO U FEEL ABOUT 1.3" I don't know how the topic suddenly changed and u all started going at each other. Basically, what I am trying to say is stop acting like 5 year old kids. We are all adults and BZ2 players. Respect each other. Well, now that that's over with, I might make another topic soon. Not sure what it's gonna be about. If u have any suggestions, just post. Hmmm. :?
Well back on topic. 1.3 great patch. It'll be great when I reaches official unifficial patch state.
Quote from: FishboneSame as the 'age of the community' thread:
Next post to directly attack someone in this thread will be banned.
I am sick and tired of some immature members of our community to abuse their right to say whats on their mind.
I know I cant watch over the whole board. But I can focus on a few threads like this one ;)
Wow, I read it again and again, and still cant believe what seemingly mature people produce when they hit their limits.
Feel free to ban me, I cant stand this board without getting personal at certain members. Their arrogance is just too inviting. Also I cant stand this board without mocking mods who are so blatantly biased. So better abuse your power now, you will regret it if you wont.
Others here are rude, crude and personal but still manage to contribute something positive to the conversation. You tend to just jump in and start with the insults without addressing even one issue.
What's up? Having a bad year?
Have it somewhere else.
-Av-