Well, the first time ive got in a scout since the public beta is released, i felt handicaped! But after 2 weeks i must say i love the physics, hovering is much more fun and skillfull, battles way less warpy then before and ive gain back the agility i needed to navigate properly. Altho i still have an issue, the max speed. It seem like there is no way to escape another unit of the same type anymore.
It require no more skill to chase someone and finish him off. As before you had to take aerodynamics position to join your opponent into his race and when you see in radar that you close enuff to shoot and finish him off then you would bring back your ship nose up in position for shooting.
Now you just have to follow and shoot, people just cant escape no matter what they do. So if your alone on the map for any reason and you meet 2 or more ennemy, its too late your dead. As well press ctrl+b as it gonna end in the same result as trying to run away.
Altho i know it would maybe change the balance between isdf and scions, i would like a way to gain more speed and get away from someone heads up, aiming and shooting. The speed itself is cool imo, its just that we could use some more aerodynamics max speed.
Its still very possible, if you aim right, and do the strafe forward (still works, faster then just straight, but is toned down slightly) it can be done. I do it quite often.
i agree with almost phaser said...
although i still dont like the physics and its ubber warpy for me...
other then that i got used to the physics - although i still dont like them...
the only thing i still complain about the physics is the feeling of freedom i had in 1.2... maybe ill end up like DF though...
and overmind... who did u ran from? i doubt ull be able to run from any vet in 1.2 even if it'll be his 1st 1.3 game... :o
Anyone else notice that reverse in a scout is half as fast now? What possessed the immortal developers to mess with reverse? To demasculate the scout, the bane of the modding-forum-ninjas?
What is funny is that the very developers of the game are rudimentary at playing it; that unable to master modern scout warfare, decide against the wishes of the majority of the community to completely overhaul it, and/or remove it's significance in the game.
I agree hovering can be irritating, which is why many vet games prohibit it in base. But this bold castrating of the very vehicle that allows BZ2 to cross the line from strategy to strategy/FPS is abhorent.
Why do you think many of us still play the game? The skillful handling of a well piloted 1.2 scout is a beautiful thing, even if you are on the other end preparing to eject into a cloud of biometal.
Modding-Forum-Ninjas, do not fear what you do not understand. Instead embrace it, learn it, BE IT. Only then will you truly be on the path to enlightenment.
Sadly 1.3 will be a secondary patch, unadopted by the masses. But what did you expect? You all have been reminded of the wishes of the mainstream community by Bulls-Eye and others for years.
But its got great modding ability!!
Hmm....
I like the fact that you cant run away if your losing. One of those annoying things about 1.2 and below if you have a guy down to %10 health they would warp/fly/multi thrust away to pod up and you could not do a thing about it.
I played dm in bz1 for a couple years before bz2 came out and there was no way to run away from anyone but nobody complaned becuase it was accepted if you got stuck fighting someone it was a fight that you had to take serously and it made the dogfights more intense becuase your ship was actually at stake, unlike bz2 where you have to chase a half dead ship around the map for 10 minutes to kill it.
@ silver
ha, the fact u cant catch people doesnt mean other people havnt mastered the skills to catch people and kill them...
"its so much easier to run"
but u can also catch them if you train hard enough im sure if we put a guy like green / grass or other one of the ubber vets on your ass you're as good as dead with no possiablty to run :)
I think one skilled aspect of 1.2 is knowing when to run. If you run, you can get away, if you break off too late, you're still dead.
Why should it be any different in 1.3? A mini/faf scout in battle with another mini/faf scout can kill him in 8 seconds, can you imagine how much dogfighting will dominate the field? The more skilled will absolutely own the less skilled, and there is nothing the less skilled can do about it.
Learning how to move fast, to survive was a key in 1.2; you could be out hitting scavengers and someone might come and try to dogfight you, but you could easily break off and run back to base. Can you do that in 1.3? Barely.
And how can you kill a forward/strafe/nosedown scout in 1.2? by adopting the same movements when chasing him, and doing a DFA (death from above) the moment he slows down to get pods (or misses, or realizes that his commander didnt make pods). Or you can get shads and anyone who tries to run away is dead meat, regardless of how much they warp.
I have run from people with shads in 1.2 all the time, you have to be in the right place on the map but that is not difficult. plus vir stops shads cold.
I have not said I think the slower ships in 1.3 is good, I think the exp Rec b13 was on the right track, had nice speed feelt good and I did not notice any more lag then normal games. I hope they release another patch.
In 1.3 you can still run you just cant wait till the guys is right on top of you like you could in 1.2.
ZA there is more to just waiting till he slows down and catching him on the pods bay... MUCH much more...
1. be fater then them
2. cut their way off (most used but alot misses when they accutly getting a bit ahead and losing their speed)
and there are some more... its just come natuerly.. i find myself when running after some1 usualy catching them preaty nicely... and not just shads.. its np running from shads if u know how to - true dat
but its harder to hunt some1... and if u just see 2 coming your way in 1.3 ur dead... simple like that... no chance at all to run...
You disagreed with my PF, but I agree with you. "2 coming and no chance to run", the last few games I had proved that.
I hate you so much now :lol:
well i usualy love the people that enlightin me and remind me stuff happend to me that i forgot :P
more to add - running nicely from 2 or more people needed a bit skills
chasing some1 and getting him was needed alot of skills, espicely lots of skills needed when they are good runners
but no, human skills wasnt intent to be in this game - just take it all away :D
yes! Thats it!
Knowing when to break off was more important then the actual skill it took to run, more strategic. And knowing how to kill a person who knows when to run was more skill.
And also, knowing when NOT to try to kill him.
QuoteAnd also, knowing when NOT to try to kill him.
Hehe u talking about firefly and Recon eh zero :shock:
Well I was talking about Sent, but ...
Ok, weve got the problem, and we are not talking about 'flying'...we are talking specifically about the dynamics of combat and how running away was just as important as fighting.
Infact, if i remember a poll only about 26% of the people on the poll voted 'agressive'. The rest were something else, and that was inculded 'defencive'...of which i am proudly apart off....
not being able to run away totally unblaences the combat in favour to the agressive, ...combats the wrong word.
it unbalences the dynamics of the scout-scout fighting (inculding running away etc etc)
I think if the units could 'accelorate' to a higher top speed...but it got harder andharder to get to that top speed that would be great.
The average speed would be the same as it is now if such a thing was impimented, but if you started a full burn 5 seconds before the opponent, even if he was infront of you when he started enaging you, you would still increase the distance between eachother.
It also works in reverse, if you were to set up a trap, let say using a scav as bait, you would gain speed as you hurtled towards the scavenger, and the opponent attacking would not see you comming till it was too late.
its also more realistic :) , wind speed give more drag the faster you go but its not a 'straight line' on the chart, it would build up more and more (until you hit sound barrier, but lets not impliment that in-game ey?)
Also, we would only need to impliement this on the types of units, all the rest need not have their odf's touched....they would be
a) scouts/drones (Xypoi/locusts) (the ones where this is noticed the most)
b) missile scout / Sentry class (and Zues mc's)
c) Sabers/Warriors (and Xares)
While I hate it when people run from a fight (especially from me :) ), maybe something like limited afterburners could be implemented. Skillful, yet conservative use of those could help compensate for the "unbalance."
I compiled a list of comparitive speeds between versions, comparing forward thrust, nose-downing, strafe+forward, and strafee+nose downing, timing how long it took them to run a 2000m race. The results showed that in 1.3 nose-down is just as fast as always, straight forward is just as fast as always, but strafe+forward or strafe+forward+nosedown were not...
Adding strafe made *no* difference to speed in 1.3, hence the reason the scouts seemed slower.
Havnig said that, my test was done a few months ago in beta, and there's a chance things have changed since then. We'll all miss the chasing someone by looking diaganolly at them and strafe+forwarding just right to keep up with them. It's kinda gone now, but people who run are still faster than those chasing, it's just more about nost-down now.
And just remember - start running when you're a little bit healthier. So far I've been fine running away in 1.3, but I've not been in that many games with lots of vet players in them. Too many vets still playing 1.2, probably. :)
nice idea nuke, but i dont think we need it...
the running is perfact in 1.2... a bit to easy to learn to run but thats what some people wants anyway - "not to die"
the running add another affect.. in importent games i feel some type of an andrelin rush when i start running on with like 5 hull left... i love the feeling
and i almost never use strafe forward nose down.. i always do forward and nosedown only...
and belive me - there is no difrence if u know to do it right...
also, im running faster then some others and i manage to catch ppl better then others... and i dont do it with strafe
the speed is just decressed in 1.3...
i would like to know who was the one that doing the "race" and how accurate are your results? and the feeling is just difrent... it might the game feeling itself.. or the engine slower - i realy dont know but bottom line is
1.3 scouts are slower runners then 1.2 runners
it takes alot of skills catching people... and some people have been playing like that for more then 4 years
i feel that 1.3 takes all the action skills away... - ok so its stratergy BUT a big part of it is action
what are thugs job? they are the action part - they need something to do rather then get few ai units from the cmdr - heck - will be better for them to play other pure stratergy game with teams on...
bz2 needs the action, taking away the speed and the races (running and chasing) is just killing another part of the action in my eyes...
1.3 slower the action in many ways - this is just anotehr one of them
I find that thugs have exactly the same role they had in 1.2.
Yup, chain scouts still often win a game, except it isn't as much fun dog fighting now. :-D
hard for me to tell.. all the games i was in i get newbs that i better as well keep the AI units to myself and do everything alone as if its 1v1.. and not much problem cause not much threat from the other team... just wasting 5000 scrap a game on their ships.. but its cool when u have 4 upgs and the enemy doesnt even know how to upg 1 pool... :)
Quote from: PhoeniX-FlamEbut its cool when u have 4 upgs and the enemy doesnt even know how to upg 1 pool... :)
hmm, maybe a little boring?
Indeed... but u want me to play 1.3 dont you? ;)
ive said many times 1.3 is more boring for me but i still play it from time to time to see maybe ill have a fun game someday or just get used to some stuff and start to like it like DF [at least from what i heard happend] :roll:
I was the one doing the tests. I was timing the 2000m run and writing it down. It took 1.3 scouts *exactly* the same amount of time to travel 2000m while going straight forward, and while using nose-down, as it did in 1.2.
I was doing these tests to try to prove how much slower 1.3 scouts were than 1.2 scouts, and the results showed that they're exactly the same speed. The only difference was that strafe did not add to your velocity, which does, I might add, make a considerable difference.
It's kinda funny... now that running away doesn't work, I've resorted to using the method of escape back from playing old Battlezone clones - going in reverse.
By going in reverse, it buys you a little extra time to dodge. It also adds to your weapons effective distance (i.e. enemy moves into your shots), while decreases the enemy's as you move away.
Of course, it really only works against the AI, and your vehicle has to have quite a bit of armor and room to back-peddle to attempt it. :D
wug, u obvisuoly dont play with vets... they will just ram you - they dont care losing 10 hp more - ull die so fast by going in reverse
Quote from: wugIt's kinda funny... now that running away doesn't work, I've resorted to using the method of escape back from playing old Battlezone clones - going in reverse.
By going in reverse, it buys you a little extra time to dodge. It also adds to your weapons effective distance (i.e. enemy moves into your shots), while decreases the enemy's as you move away.
Of course, it really only works against the AI, and your vehicle has to have quite a bit of armor and room to back-peddle to attempt it. :D
In BZ1 most 'vets' had a mouse button or keypress bound to shift-F3, and had set up that view for an over-the-shoulder look. That way you could 'check the rear view mirror' in the blink of an eye when running.
The other running away technique is to have 3D sound going and a four-speaker setup around you. You can hear the shots/rockets coming up one side or the other allowing you to dodge them.
Then there's Mower's method, involving some sort of 'beer mine' dropped right in front of a pursuing enemy.... ;)
-Av-
I been abble to run away from ennemy more then i thought i would untill now. So i guess i was wrong about that, maybe it was just luck or warp but i did get away almost every time i tried. As im not someone who will chase an ennemy, always prefer to keep bullets for pool and scavs, i havent intensively tested that.
Im definatly getting the hang of this scout, its just so powerfull once again! Woot! Woot!
Yeah, like I said, going in reverse only works against the AI. Against human opponents, I really dunno what to do in 1.3 (help!). But it's been 3 or 4 years since I've touched BZ II, so I'm still on training wheels. :oops:
And dodging while running away is pretty much impossible against machinegun weapons now. 3D sound only makes getting blown up sound cooler. 8)
"Beer mines?" Isn't that a LAN-only option? :lol:
I think that the scouts should , if possiable, have their 'reverse truster power' returned....in FE xypoi scouts have the abilty to go backwards almost as fast as they go forwards, and so do many units. Its a Hadean charaistic that should stay if at all possiable and is important to the balence and dynamics of many of the unique hadean stratergies/tactics.
I personally think above a certain distance, only the 'forward' thrust (i.e. the big burning thing at the back lol) should function. This will stop the flying aspect, but not harm the manuverabilty of the scouts
The problems 1.2 vets are having with the 1.3 scouts is not the speed...its the manuverabilty.
Cutting off side thrusters at certain altitudes will be a big mistake
For what reasons? and how about just the reverse one?
For the reasons of being able to maneuver and change direction in the air. Cutting side thrusters out if you're facing > 40 degrees would be an OK idea tho. If I wanted to experiment around, I'd probably see about making the vehicles 'heavier', and allowing jump thrusters to slow descent to the point that they do now (ie: you'll fall faster if you dont use your jump or reverse thrusters, so they will work instead of becoming completely useless which is a ridiculous idea).
I think that ISDF scout should be able to reverse in a similar way to how it did in 1.2 (correct me if im wrong, but it seems to be 'alot' slower now)...
i tihnk the reason this was changed was because the reverse thruster is crical to Flying...not 'controling arc attacks'...which im all for... but indefinate/semi-indefinate flying.
so....have it sothat the reverse thruster ceases to work the higher you go....the pitch idea sounds cool...but it might make it to hard to piolet (a good thing :D, you never know some people and how much the love this game)