In FE, all of the revs. And in BZII 1.2 and 1.3. I have almost *never* seen MAG being used.
infact, other than In-game testing, and newer players, i have actually NEVER seen mag. Perhaps the 'combat mag' idea never worked....
Change it back to the orginal BZI style mag and balence out the damage values? Hell...i always thought the assault version would be more like the current 'combat' version anyway.
SO, the suggestion is to :
Make combat MAG BZI style.
Make Assault like the current Combat 'shot gun' style mag...but increase its damage ratings and range to deserve he 'assault ' name.
I like it the way it is for ST, it might be used more often now though now that walkers have assault cannon HPs rather than combats like in 1.2, this way you can actually SEE the assault version of MAG in action more often. Perhaps though for DM a gmaggdm.odf can be made so on actual combat units the old BZ1 style can be used, making it actually possible to see it in a DM game without making walkers enabled.
Saw a Walker with assault Mags in action toight on Moonshroud. Was fine, but let down by the pathing for the trucks. (http://www.the-rip.com/wbboard/images/smilies/wink.gif)
Huh? My favorite tank is a mag armed assault tank, but I never play online so no wander you didn't see me. I must say I prefered walkers with combat mode, so you could have a stronger mag for the assault tank (now it's /2 the walker) in assault mode.
What I would like to see for mag is a better AI (how GTs and Units use it, GT charges way to long and units don't charge long enough), but since 1.3 came out I didn't play a lot so this might be out-of-date.
the walker was killed by poor team work... all sides..
i was in the walker... 1st of all was walking on bridge... no truck followed.. so i got btb... - k we start over... i asked for m-curtiens on me and got none.. then all the trucks got killed from the back... just a poor team communcation and poor team work
since the walkres in FE are on assult mag is being used once in awhile... and even if blast used sometimes after game they think about "why didnt i use mag?"
which will make them think about using mag their next game...
I thought mag had very poor range, even assault mode, u had to be like waaay up on the building or pretty damn close to it kinda like fang on mauler.
In BZ1 the Mag was the best way to take down buildings from an extreme distance. Used on low power it ate almost no ammo, but each little blob ate a ton of hull on a GT or PS.
Full Power dual mags would take out any ship, or spin a Walker away like a dry leaf in a tornado. Dual-Magger BDogs were universally hated...
I miss 'em... :)
-Av-
But isnt the point of having weapons with assualt and combat modes so one could be faster reloading, and faster moving, do less damage, and be most effective in dogfighting, with the other mode being slower reloading, travles slowly, and doing a tremendous anount of damage, to be most effective against targets that couldnt dodge them? Yes, it may not work, and its a bit different for mag, but do you think you could hit a scout with a mag asstank as it is? Would it be easier the other way? Do we want it to be easier the other way?
Quote from: AvatarI miss 'em... :)
Have you not looked at the BZ1 weapons zip I sent you? :D
I looked... :)
I haven't played... :o
I need a week off. :D
-Av-
Bring back the RAVE GUN! :cool:
There is a rave gun in BZ2. Has been all along. Didn't you know that? :p
You can build rave gun powerups from the armory if you select the 'insane recycler variant' before starting the game. They cost 60 scrap, tho. :cool:
I just played a solo MPI on Fortress the other day with the insane recy. Sure would be nice if the AI used the insane weapons as well, ought to really ramp up the challange :twisted:
Would you really like to be chasing a lone rave saber through your base when it decides to drop a fountain? I thought rave costs 50...rave is fun...i like the music
Umm.....YES :twisted: . What can I say....I'm a masochist at heart :lol: .
heh, too bad the comp would be too dumb to use it right..."hey look, an enemy, in our base, lets use fountain now!"
team dmg by the AI usualy get 'canceled'
The Mag is ok I just dont like the limit to hold it and it shouldn't use ammo as you are holding it either. At least imo.
If t wouldn't it might leed to unfair tactics (keeping charged, going to enemies and unleashing terrible damage before runing away)
Huscar said ; "If t wouldn't it might leed to unfair tactics (keeping charged, going to enemies and unleashing terrible damage before runing away)"
I say fixing MAG (like for FE Rev.C, job done) might lead to
excellent tactics (keeping charged, going to enemies and
unleashing terrible damage before running away)
We aren't all on the same wavelength here...
I never use the mag in BZ2. Maybe its because (like avatar) i remember the mag from BZ1. Now THAT was an awesome weapon. The black dog walker came with two of them!!! And like avatar said it killed any unit in like one shot. The rave gun was a lot better in BZ1 too. Much more powerful and your screen flashed all kinds of cool colors too and with the techno music it was like you were at........ well a rave! lol
Come to think of it.... everything in BZ1 was more powerful. It was simply easier to kill stuff. The weapons just inflicted more damage. Maybe thats not a really a good thing cause it shortens games. But at any rate SOMETHING needs to be done about the mag cause i've never seen anyone use it. But then again there are a lot more weapons on the scion side that need just as much attention. Remember balance everyone! :D
Mag doesn't need attention. I use mag in strat games from time to time, it has it's niche, and should be kept that way.
There *are* scion weapons that require attention, yes. Weapons that have no niche. As far as I'm concerned, no weapon that has any kind of situation to which it is well suited enough to be useable in an online strat game should be changed.
With that in mind, tag cannon has a use (outranging turrets before you get shads, and weapon-cycling with laser to increase pool suppression ability). Mag has a use (obvious really, rushing bases or enemy assault units). Red field has a use (I regard it as better than VIR even in 1.2, never mind the powerful new redfield in 1.3). Flares have a use (turret killing), prox mines have a use (circling extractors). Just about every single ISDF weapon has a niche to be used in, and as such I don't think any of them require attention, except perhaps comets. Perhaps
As for scions - the lancer just doesn't cut it against anything. Even against packs of AI mortar bikes, there are better scion choices than a lancer (such as titans, arc stream warriors, or even sonic scouts). Furthermore, the multilock missiles have no real use (maybe if their range and damage were increased to rival the missile scouts dual-shadower setup it'd be better). Wasps get shot out of the air easily by anything, AI or human, making them useless.
That's it as far as I'm concerned - the lancer, particularly it's multilock weapon, needs attention. Everything else is fine just as it is. Mention any other weapon and I'd be able to recite a few times it helped me win multiplayer strat games. In fact, if you choose some of the rare and strange weapons of BZ2, there's a very good chance you'd choose one of my faveourites - I love finding uses for the wierd stuff.
i like emp lockdown, dont you just love bouncing all over the place and freezing enemies, and think of crossing breeding abilities...
emp+sonic+walker=super happy peace walker :mrgreen:
its really fun to completely irridaciate any defensife power they have against anyhting
I agree with DF, before we even think about doing anything to an ISDF weapon we should fix scion ones. The multi lock is a kinda neat idea since you can lock on more than once. When I first got the game I tried it out and I was like wow what a cool weapon. But then when I realized that it didn't really fit a particular purpose.... like there were other weapons that could fulfill all its possible uses. I stopped using it except when I wanted to use the wasp. The wasp if improved could possibly be the "long range" weapon that many players ask for the scions to have. If it were just a little harder to shoot down. I think technoid said in some other posts that the wasp needs to be smaller. That would help it not get shot down as easy and would also make things more realistic. As technoid said it just looks weird for a ship that small to be launching a rocket that big. Maybe increasing its health a little or speeding it up would also help.
DF you said you like weird weapons.... What do you do with static charge? I'm sorry but I see no use for that weapon. You need to be right next to the enemy to use it, and it doesn't even do much damage anyway. Maybe if it did more damage and it "reached out" a little further it might be used. Or maybe we could give it some kind of bonus while using it.... i dunno maybe reduce incoming damage.... or maybe thats too much like a shield... maybe shoot out weaker mini arc steams when enemies get close... errr i guess thats more something for a mod cuz its kinda complex and changes a few too many things.... i dunno what are your ideas.
Static charge is usefull if surrounded by lots of weak (damaged) enemy units at close distance. Long range scion weapon, what did you think of an arcer? Never tried it but might prove usefull combined with a Static charge, first damage enemies, then kill them. Sentry might be the static charge carrying unit.
EDIT: yes DR we think differently on what's fair or not, parsonally I don't think it is fair to fire such a powerfull weapon witch was first ment to take time to fire in an instant (wich is what happens when pre-charging). But that is an opinion so let's not start about it.
scion should have a weapon vs hadeans... they dont seem to have the slight of chance vs hadean
They slaughter hadeans IMO.
As for a weapon versus hadeans - Sonic cannon *and* sonic wave make the best hadean weapon, the fireballgun, much weaker. Scions win when they get blink (as always), but especially against hadeans since hads can't build sniper rifles, reducing their chances of sniping one of those warriors. Scions can also flarebomb turrets, and don't even have to morph to take out spikes (spikes only have light armour), meaning hadeans either stay undefended trying to tech up, or they rely on the 70-scrap defenders, which will almost certainly slow them down enough for scions to get blink and win.
Whichever way I try to look at it, scions crush hadeans, a little too easily, methinks.
re: Static charge - it's good against APCs, and it's good for adding damage for pool hitting, but in general I don't want to see it any better because of the lag it causes.
I thought the lag associated with it was fixed? (well not in FE, but in general the Static Field should be usable again, how useful is in debate, but it should be able to be used now)
2 wariors, 2 fulls
all was arc blink absro
and we lost horriably...
pushed us back with fb xares... warior cant kill a xares
not with arc at least and i doubt sonic does a better job against heavy armor
Actually, these are the damage values:
Arc Cannon:
damageValue(N) = 100
damageValue(L) = 100
damageValue(H) = 75
damageValue(S) = 75
damageValue(D) = 100
damageValue(A) = 50
Sonic Blast:
damageValue(N) = 400 // none
damageValue(L) = 270 // light
damageValue(H) = 100 // heavy
damageValue(S) = 270 // standard
damageValue(D) = 400 // deflection
damageValue(A) = 170 // absorbtion
Those are stock BZ2 values though. Not sure about how Rev. C/D may handle it.
It's better to judge things on damage/second actually, since this takes firerate into consideration, and the fact that arc cannon fires 6 times per button press.
It works out that sonic cannon does a *LOT* more damage/second against the *light* armour of a Xares than arc cannon. The main point isn't the damage though, it's the fact that the sonic blast pushes enemy projectives around as it flies through the air. Using sonic, you find that the fireballgun almost never hits home.
Furthermore, you need to realise that the fireballgun is a kinetic weapon, not energy. Using absorbtion shield against fireballgun is like having *zero* armour.
Next time you fight hadeans while you're scions, hit their base non-stop, take out spikes without morphing, and tech up to blink asap.
Use deflection shields and give one or maybe 2 of your thugs sonic cannons; the fireballgun will seem like some kind of joke. The hadean commander will either react by using dragonblast (dumb move), or using a zeus worm or two (good move). If he does use the zeus worm, you'll have a fight on your hands, but it's nothing you can't handle with blink.
In short, I think you're playing against hadeans as though they're ISDF, and that's the reason you're losing.
~DF
ps. I've seen so many vets judging hadeans as if they're ISDF. I remember the bawling over fireballgun and dragonblast in the past(some of which, admittedly, I was part of). People were arguing that fireballgun was the best cannon in the game... This is probably true, but the true comparison to be made is fireballgun+shell vs blast+chain+mortar. The blast/chain/mortar setup comes out tops in almost all categories, and is only slightly lower in ammo capacity.
This is a similar issue... People judging hadeans without really understanding them. When you understand them, they're a bit weaker than ISDF and Scions IMO, even in rev.C where they were boosted so much. In short, when you udnerstand them, the Xares is quite naff, certainly not their strength. The hadean strength lies in the zeus worm, the atlas, and the hedoux FBS.
FB looks like energy weapon.. im a hadean newb.. but i did whats logical.. and im used to 1.2 dont forget...
i never knew sonic is good on heavy armor... it seems real weird... cause arc does more dmg to tanks then sonic
and i was running around with absro...
Quotei never knew sonic is good on heavy armor... it seems real weird... cause arc does more dmg to tanks then sonic
I already said, tanks have *light* armour. Buildings, assault tanks etc have heavy armour.
Sonic does *miles* more damage to light armour than arc does, which includes tanks, it's just harder to hit with, and doesn't have that evil 'knock around' effect that arc has.
As for FB being an energy weapon - I believe the heat burn that comes from the shot passing by is energy, but the big heavy center of the shot is certainly kinetic. Probably made of stone, even. Heh.
re: You being a Hadean Noob - you play FE pretty well for a self proclaimed hadean noob.
i thought the light armor was a joke cause blast seems to does real less dmg then to isdf tanks / scouts
that meanst they just got a HUGE healthbar?
see? im a hadean n00b :P
i know about guns abit... slicer, shell gun burst and praticle gun... i dont know the range.. i know slicer is good for scotus - close to isdf laser, shell is like chains and burst is like pummel - but seems stronger
dont know range of anything, dont know how many cannons, dont realy remmeber the names... what was it procreator and hmm damn forgot the fac name :lol:
as a vet i tihnk u can adujst to anything, even a new race - the porblem is you dont learn counters, tactics , weak & strong points in 1 day.. all this stuff u ussaly learn from some1 / alot of testing with and playing vs and watching what others do
Well, the Xares tank does have *slightly* more health than a sabre, but not much.
re: Hadean guns. The slicer is kinda in between a chaingun and a laser for it's ability to kill scouts and hit pools. Likewise, the burstgun is kinda in between a chaingun and a pummel gun.
Slicer isn't a patch on laser for killing scouts, burst gun isn't a patch on pummel for hitting buildings, but slicer is better than laser for hitting buildings, and burst is better than pummel for dogfighting.
Shellgun is ok for scouts and pools, but not great. It's excellent for killing light armour (such as sabre/warrior/xares), but it's *very* good for kiling tanks.
As for the cannons - Slag cannon is a long range SP stabber, combat laser and dragon blast are rubbish, and fireballgun is badass, as you well know. :)
pummel - burst - chain - slicer - laser
dont know where to put in shell gun though :P
i think it was you posted this...
u need like 8 blast shots to kill xares while u need 5/6 (5 and a bit) shots to kill isdf tank
that doesnt look like *slightly* more :D its in the game terms errr 600 health more?
http://www.centralimmune.fsnet.co.uk/uscm/games/bz2/vehicles%20revc.html
300 more health.
7 blasts to kill a sabre, 8 to kill a xares.
was looking for something like that..
ty
Quote from: DarkFox
With that in mind, tag cannon has a use (outranging turrets before you get shads, and weapon-cycling with laser to increase pool suppression ability).
As for scions - the lancer just doesn't cut it against anything. Even against packs of AI mortar bikes, there are better scion choices than a lancer (such as titans, arc stream warriors, or even sonic scouts).
Tag cannon is also useful for attacking VIR'd tanks and scouts with AI rckt tanks and avengers.
I had always found the lancer useful for long range turret and mortar bike killing but i do realize that other scion ships can do the same thing just as easily but also closer to the enemy like say in the range of a Gun Tower or Spire. At least IMHO
Lancers cannot outrange gunspires. Their have the same range as guntowers when using stingers, less range than gunspires, but you'll find that stingers do *half* as much damage as a *minigun* against the heavy armour of a guntower. You'll literally be there for about 2 minutes firing constantly before you take a guntower down with stingers.
They're ok against turrets, yes, but not as quick for killing them as a sonic scout, and the lancer is far slower than a sonic scout... And far worse at dogfighting... Well... Lancers are just naff.
in 1.3 they are fairly good as combat escorts (of course not against something with VIR....damn themal / visual missile bug)
ANYWAY back on topic!
Is making combat MAG the same as the BZI mag (although not as powerful) and the Assault Mag similiar to the 'current' shot-gun style combat mag...but more powerful to compensate.
I think that change would mean Assault vechiles have a reason to use mag (its a shorter range but more powerful than blast)
and combat vechiles would have a reason to use it (for the same reasons it was used in bzi).
ATM Blast is more preferable in both instances. the Current mag only has 'one' neich which is a 3-4 player timed with voice chat rec hit. A neich that 'would not' be affected sevarly by the change i recommend.
i love the current assult mag, and i use it in FE, on 1.2 its useless because ur better off with blast / mdm assult tank rather then mag / mdm ass tank
why? cause 1 mag isnt that usefull...
mag on maulers (lol) is DAMN great and same as on FE walker...
this is 1.3 not FE firstly :P
secondly, I have yet to see a MAG being used in-strat game EVER (excluding tests where we said 'lets try out the mag!' and such).
The BZI mag was the 'ultimate' weapon.
Lets return some of that BZI goodness (you know its good) and make blast/mag equal...whilst not changing blast and not making MAG fill the same neich as blast.
I think my suggestion would help do this.
this would require mag to be the oppsite of blast, hard to hit with, good against buildings and heavy armor, probablly good with light armor and no armor killing, but moves low so light ships can dodge...now, what does this sound like? And could it be that mag isnt used because of huge ammo cost and inability to dogfight with? Not because it isnt good? Maybe increacing the range so you dont need to be on top of something to hit it...
I dont want to see mag being made 'more powerful'. I just want its charaistics to be made so that MAG is as useful as blast, but in a totally different way.
I fell my suggestion would be a step in the right direction.