Battlezone Universe

Battlezone Universe => Archive Vault => Public 1.3 Beta Archive => Topic started by: APCs r evil on April 29, 2004, 09:01:39 PM

Title: (Medium Suggestion) Shields and Snipers
Post by: APCs r evil on April 29, 2004, 09:01:39 PM
I didn't know what to call this along the lines of minor tweak or bug so i just came up with the name it's called now. :mrgreen:
P.S. feel free to give me a new name idea.

Why don't shields stop sniper bullets, or in the case of scions, beams? I mean shields are supposed to absorb or deflect damage and if the bullet gets through the shield I would think it would be weakened enough for the hull to be able to stop the bullet or beam completely without damaging the pilot, or would doing this raise a balance issue?
Title: (Medium Suggestion) Shields and Snipers
Post by: Zero Angel on April 29, 2004, 09:20:09 PM
Deflection shields deflect shots only VERY slightly. For example, if you hit the edge of a deflect shild with a chaingun round, it will arc ever so slightly away from the center. Sniper bullets travel so fast, they aren't really affected by shields.
Title: (Medium Suggestion) Shields and Snipers
Post by: APCs r evil on April 29, 2004, 09:27:29 PM
They actually DO deflect projectiles? :shock: I never noticed.
Title: (Medium Suggestion) Shields and Snipers
Post by: Jwk the Hemp Monkey on April 29, 2004, 10:10:41 PM
This might be an idea......

Is it possiable to make sheilds take damage from a weapon, and then deflect it off...like a smaller version that does less damage...And its properties are determined by the % damage it does to the subject.
Title: (Medium Suggestion) Shields and Snipers
Post by: APCs r evil on April 29, 2004, 11:58:19 PM
But what about absorbtion? I wouldn't think it would deflect projectiles but absorb them to do something like restore ammo slightly.
Title: (Medium Suggestion) Shields and Snipers
Post by: Angstromicus on April 30, 2004, 01:25:37 AM
Statisis: Doesn't absorb or defelect blasts, just has a protection effect.

Deflection: Diverts most damage of projectile weapons away from the ship

Absorbtion: Makes beam weapon's damage spread over the entire craft (doesn't absorb blasts).
Title: (Medium Suggestion) Shields and Snipers
Post by: DarkFox on April 30, 2004, 01:35:42 AM
QuoteDeflection shields deflect shots only VERY slightly. For example, if you hit the edge of a deflect shild with a chaingun round, it will arc ever so slightly away from the center. Sniper bullets travel so fast, they aren't really affected by shields.
ZA, you're getting shields mixed up for sonic wave. Shields don't deflect bullets at all (Yes, even deflection shields), they merely reduce the damage you receive from certain types of weapons. In fact, a lot of people posting in this thread seem to be a bit off the mark, I'm surprised.

Statis slightly reduces kinetic weapon damage, and significantly reduces energy weapon damage.
Deflection Significantly reduces kinetic weapon damage.
Absortion *Severely* reduces energy weapon damage.

Kinetic weapons are things like miniguns, chainguns, SP stabbers, mortars, and certain explosions.
Energy weapons are things like laser, blast, iongun, plasma and certain explosions

A good rule of thumb (Not a perfect one) is to treat stasis shields like light armour, and treat absorbtion and deflection shields as heavy armour against their target weapons. Since most kinetic weapons (miniguns, chainguns, SP stabbers etc) have a lot of armour penetration, deflection shields tend to be less effective than absorbtion shields (lasers and blasts are crap at armour penetration).

~DF
ps. Shields *do* work against sniper shells. Sniper shells are kinetic weapons. Strangely for kinetic weapons, however, they have *zero* armour penetration.
They do full damage to absorbtion shields, half damage to stasis shields, and zero damage to deflection shields.
Title: (Medium Suggestion) Shields and Snipers
Post by: Angstromicus on April 30, 2004, 01:39:17 AM
Quote from: DarkFox
QuoteDeflection shields deflect shots only VERY slightly. For example, if you hit the edge of a deflect shild with a chaingun round, it will arc ever so slightly away from the center. Sniper bullets travel so fast, they aren't really affected by shields.
ZA, you're getting shields mixed up for sonic wave. Shields don't deflect bullets at all (Yes, even deflection shields), they merely reduce the damage you receive from certain types of weapons. In fact, a lot of people posting in this thread seem to be a bit off the mark, I'm surprised.

Statis slightly reduces kinetic weapon damage, and significantly reduces energy weapon damage.
Deflection Significantly reduces kinetic weapon damage.
Absortion *Severely* reduces energy weapon damage.

Kinetic weapons are things like miniguns, chainguns, SP stabbers, mortars, and certain explosions.
Energy weapons are things like laser, blast, iongun, plasma and certain explosions

Quite the quote :P, but anyway, what kind of explosions would be kinetic?
Title: (Medium Suggestion) Shields and Snipers
Post by: Tempest Storm on April 30, 2004, 01:46:22 AM
Quote from: DarkFoxps. Shields *do* work against sniper shells. Sniper shells are kinetic weapons. Strangely for kinetic weapons, however, they have *zero* armour penetration.
They do full damage to absorbtion shields, half damage to stasis shields, and zero damage to deflection shields.

He is talking about how sniper rifles can still penetrate a ship and snipe out the cockpit I belive.
Title: (Medium Suggestion) Shields and Snipers
Post by: DarkFox on April 30, 2004, 01:52:07 AM
Salvo rockets hitting the ground do more damage to absorbtion shields than they do to deflections.

Yes, that's it as far as I know. There's a weapon called 'tronic' that does the same, but it seems to be unused in the game as we know it.
Title: (Medium Suggestion) Shields and Snipers
Post by: Angstromicus on April 30, 2004, 01:53:48 AM
They may have tiny neutron explosive packages in them.
Title: (Medium Suggestion) Shields and Snipers
Post by: Zero Angel on April 30, 2004, 08:31:53 PM
Damn, i coulda SWORE that i seen chaingun rounds arc off the edge of the shield.
Title: (Medium Suggestion) Shields and Snipers
Post by: Jwk the Hemp Monkey on April 30, 2004, 09:34:04 PM
it woudl be cool if sheilds reacted to different weapons slightly differently. It would also be good if if you get hit by a 100 bullets the sheilds dont cause graphical lag.
Title: (Medium Suggestion) Shields and Snipers
Post by: APCs r evil on April 30, 2004, 10:07:10 PM
Ok I seem to have misled some of you in my first post, what I meant was that shields should render a ship unsnipable.
Title: (Medium Suggestion) Shields and Snipers
Post by: Tempest Storm on April 30, 2004, 10:15:43 PM
W00t, I got it right! :D
Title: (Medium Suggestion) Shields and Snipers
Post by: Jwk the Hemp Monkey on April 30, 2004, 10:58:38 PM
...might be a cool idea.

Deflection sheild renders you unsnipeable by ISDF guns...

Stasis renders you unsipeable by Hadean guns

Absorbtion renders you unsnipeable by Scion guns....



On another note to do with the graphics, is their away to make it so that if the number of hits a sheild experiences goes above a certain level, then the shield halves the number of 'textures' it has going around it...and doubles their intensity to compensate.

Doable? Might helpe with graphical lag cause by close combat with sheilded scion craft with fast firing weapons.
Title: (Medium Suggestion) Shields and Snipers
Post by: Spawn on May 01, 2004, 05:11:46 AM
...the odd thing about sheilds is that they dont change mdm motar damage at all, and some hadean weapons do most damage to absorbsion, some damage to deflection, and the least to stasis, stupid programmers making things hard to understand...
if anyone wants, i could write a little toutorial so they could look at odf's and find out damage, unless thats already here.  Its really quite simple, especially with battlenest

EDIT:  on topic now, i dont see how the sheilds can stop sniper shells, when deflection slows things down (my view, cuse it doesnt matter where they hit you with boimetal after the fact, except for sniper...), absorbtion spreads out energy damage, so each part is less affected (so the biometal wouldnt need to fill in one big hole, but many tiny ones), and stasis slows everything down a bit, and tries to spread it out, but it uses the same energy, so it does a little less of each (but that doesnt explain the odd hadean weapons...).  

Just my 2 cents on this
Title: (Medium Suggestion) Shields and Snipers
Post by: DarkFox on May 01, 2004, 09:25:38 AM
Quotehadean weapons do most damage to absorbsion, some damage to deflection, and the least to stasis
This is put in simply to add to the strategy of haden vs scion matches. Stasis shields tend to be very effective against hadean teams, so weapons like dragonblast were made to be a counter to them. The more counters and counter-counters, the more strategic the game.
Title: (Medium Suggestion) Shields and Snipers
Post by: Jwk the Hemp Monkey on May 01, 2004, 10:24:49 AM
The idea is that hadeans like to 'combine' things in a sort of harmonious balence. As a result many of their weapons have energy properties *and* kinetic properties. As a result the ones that are 'mostly energy partially kinatetic' rip though deflection sheilds (not as fast as laser mind)...and the ones that are mostly kinetic and partially energy (e.g. shell) can rip though absorbtion sheilds, but are not as weak as lets say chain, which is totally kinetic, against deflection sheilds.

As a result stasis is by far the best option against hadean forces, as i have said since the begining when i joined the rev.c board ages ago.
Title: (Medium Suggestion) Shields and Snipers
Post by: Avatar on May 01, 2004, 11:53:23 AM
Quote from: Jwk the Hemp MonkeyOn another note to do with the graphics, is their away to make it so that if the number of hits a sheild experiences goes above a certain level, then the shield halves the number of 'textures' it has going around it...and doubles their intensity to compensate.

Doable? Might helpe with graphical lag cause by close combat with sheilded scion craft with fast firing weapons.

This is true with any texture saturation, and has been brought to Ken's attention:

The Plasma Stream is one such weapon.   At close range (which is pretty much the only way to use it) it’ll fill the screen when it hits the target, saturating a good chunk of your view and taking framerates to single digits.  The Scion Shield effect will also do this if hit hard enough, and pity the poor player using a Plasma Stream against a shield….    
Ah yes, that would cause some trouble.  Hmm.  I'd have to figure out how to "combine" the particle effects.  I can definitely see how it would cause a problem, though.

-Av-
Title: (Medium Suggestion) Shields and Snipers
Post by: Jwk the Hemp Monkey on May 01, 2004, 12:46:25 PM
plasma stream can be modified and tweaked to have fewer and brighter textures.

But the sheild's would need a more complex solution.

Perhaps we should re-make the way sheilds interact with weapons. Mabey the sheilds can make a Single very well defined texture that increases with the amount of damage done to it per second...meaning big shot weapons woudl have a different affect to 100s/hits a second weapons....but neither of them woudl affect the game lag.
Title: (Medium Suggestion) Shields and Snipers
Post by: OvermindDL1 on May 01, 2004, 04:40:39 PM
I've never had the plasma stream slow me down... I wonder why it would get so slow...



Heh, just remembered, bz2 still does TnL on the cpu, the CPU's FPU is not as fast as a vid card and it has to be done by a program rather then simultaneously, I guess that could do it, if it is absolutely flooded, but I've never had a slow down just from that.
Title: (Medium Suggestion) Shields and Snipers
Post by: Spawn on May 02, 2004, 06:15:04 AM
whenever i use plasma stream i always go into 3rd person mode, lets me not lag to hell and i can see when someone tries to sneak up on me
Title: (Medium Suggestion) Shields and Snipers
Post by: PhoeniX-FlamE on May 02, 2004, 01:08:35 PM
no lag here
Title: (Medium Suggestion) Shields and Snipers
Post by: FoxBlade on May 02, 2004, 03:14:56 PM
I guess it has to do with your hardware specs, on my 733 I get slowdowns but no real lag. OM im guessing your using something 2.5+ so of course your cpu could handle it well.
Title: (Medium Suggestion) Shields and Snipers
Post by: Dirty Rooster on May 02, 2004, 05:47:14 PM
Plasmastream only slowed my FPS when particles were on high.
For online play I always set particles LOW and screen Res 600 or 800.
I have Athlon1800.

With particles LOW the scion shield effects and all other explosions
have very little effect on my FPS online.
With particles on HIGH the game might run fine until lots of
guns start lighting up the place, at which time FPS drops and
the ensuing lag gives the whole game hassle.
In single-player I dont mind setting stuff high to enjoy to pictures.
Title: (Medium Suggestion) Shields and Snipers
Post by: Spawn on May 02, 2004, 05:50:26 PM
heh, i always lag, but that could be because i have everything set to max...
Title: (Medium Suggestion) Shields and Snipers
Post by: PhoeniX-FlamE on May 02, 2004, 06:47:29 PM
im same as rooster...
Title: (Medium Suggestion) Shields and Snipers
Post by: Jwk the Hemp Monkey on May 02, 2004, 07:12:33 PM
Quoteheh, i always lag, but that could be because i have everything set to max...


Yeah well show some respect to the server and other players by having the settings on a lower setting. BZII is not like other games, your low framerate = worser gameplay for everyone.
Title: (Medium Suggestion) Shields and Snipers
Post by: PhoeniX-FlamE on May 02, 2004, 07:57:02 PM
ya, i hate when server is dumb enough to have high gfx... my fps drops to 10
Title: (Medium Suggestion) Shields and Snipers
Post by: OvermindDL1 on May 02, 2004, 09:24:35 PM
Actually my computer is 850 mhz and I play on max quality and I get decent enough framerates...
Title: (Medium Suggestion) Shields and Snipers
Post by: DarkFox on May 02, 2004, 09:41:32 PM
Urgh... Overmind... That's awful.
Mine is an 1800 and I play with *everything* at minimum. My framerates with everything at maximum are fine, but I make games lag. Try to understand that multiplayer performance starts to suffer way before framerates get hit in BZ2.
Title: (Medium Suggestion) Shields and Snipers
Post by: Angstromicus on May 03, 2004, 12:11:53 AM
I'm thinking it has more to do with the graphics card than the computer.

I used to use an intergrated gfx card, but I finally got a new one (PCI tho...), and game quality increased tremendously.
Title: (Medium Suggestion) Shields and Snipers
Post by: Spawn on May 03, 2004, 12:35:38 AM
i thought that bz2 processes graphics through the cpu, not the video card.  Does it process anything through the video card?
Title: (Medium Suggestion) Shields and Snipers
Post by: FoxBlade on May 03, 2004, 01:18:21 AM
to my understanding T&L is done via processor, but everything else should be done via video card.
Title: (Medium Suggestion) Shields and Snipers
Post by: Spawn on May 03, 2004, 02:06:01 AM
um, forgive my computer ignorance, but what is T&L?
Title: (Medium Suggestion) Shields and Snipers
Post by: MowerMan on May 03, 2004, 04:46:44 AM
Transform and Lighting.  I don't believe BZ2 supports hardware T&L.
Title: (Medium Suggestion) Shields and Snipers
Post by: OvermindDL1 on May 03, 2004, 06:46:08 AM
BZ2 uses Directx6 for its video API, DX6 was the last DX not to support hardware TnL.  But yes, texture's graphics, etc, are done on the video card.  Just vertex calculations and such are done on the CPU.  My video card is an ATI Radeon 9700 Pro (no cracks about a high-end vid card in a slow comp like mine, I can get over 55 fps constant in UT2k4 with 16 bots) so it is possible that is the reason I can do well in BZ2 at max res/quality.  If I lower everything to minimum it just gives me about a 20 to 30 fps jump, by that time it is in the 80fps range so not really worth it...
Title: (Medium Suggestion) Shields and Snipers
Post by: PhoeniX-FlamE on May 03, 2004, 11:45:16 AM
but u have to relize it lags the game...
Title: (Medium Suggestion) Shields and Snipers
Post by: Zero Angel on May 03, 2004, 04:12:29 PM
Oh yeah, I was thinking of m-curtain. </dummy>  :lol:
Title: (Medium Suggestion) Shields and Snipers
Post by: OvermindDL1 on May 03, 2004, 05:56:39 PM
BZ2 auto sets everything down if it needs to in multiplayer, so I do not see how that is an issue.  Mind you, I havn't played BZ2 1.2 in almost a half year, so I am not considering that.
Title: (Medium Suggestion) Shields and Snipers
Post by: Spawn on May 03, 2004, 10:00:03 PM
lol, is it just me or does anyone realize how fast all these threads go off topic :lol:
Title: (Medium Suggestion) Shields and Snipers
Post by: PhoeniX-FlamE on May 03, 2004, 10:18:04 PM
o man! we just changed the topic to off topic stuff!! GREAT JOB SPAWN!! ;)
Title: (Medium Suggestion) Shields and Snipers
Post by: Spawn on May 04, 2004, 01:26:06 AM
??its in 1.3 beta...
Title: (Medium Suggestion) Shields and Snipers
Post by: APCs r evil on May 04, 2004, 03:11:58 AM
Quote from: Spawnlol, is it just me or does anyone realize how fast all these threads go off topic :lol:

This one didn't even make it through a full page. 8)
Title: (Medium Suggestion) Shields and Snipers
Post by: PhoeniX-FlamE on May 04, 2004, 11:01:40 AM
but it will... we're on the way already :D
Title: (Medium Suggestion) Shields and Snipers
Post by: Ninja on May 05, 2004, 06:03:05 AM
Quote from: apcs_r_evilOk I seem to have misled some of you in my first post, what I meant was that shields should render a ship unsnipable.

It does in 1.2.... Never tested it in 1,3

But i agree they should prevent damage by sniper.
Title: (Medium Suggestion) Shields and Snipers
Post by: Jwk the Hemp Monkey on May 05, 2004, 05:18:29 PM
...no it doesnt...