Is there a way to make Site CAMM show ships that are using VIR? If so that would make Site CAMM much more useful.
I have no idea how to get Site Cam to reveal ships using VIR - but it would be a cool effect!! :cool:
One thing i would do is make sure that it cost no ammunition to use Site Cam.
Why, JWK. Why would you want a weapon that lets you see through terrain, perhaps if someone makes a flag to see VIR then it sees invisible ships, use NO ammo? That is a balance NIGHTMARE.
No it's not wz. Even if Site camera used no ammo whatsoever, I'd still not use it. I'd either use solar flares, M-curtains, or VIR. The ability to see a VIR ship is not as good as the ability to use a tiny bit of ammo and make a magnetic bubble appear, or the ability to use a little ammo to turn invisible and become immune to seeking rockets.
But on the other hand, if for some reason you WERE using it, having it use no ammo whatsoever can't be a good thing. If that is going to be the case, then build a special building that, as long as it exists, makes ALL of your ships capable of doing that. Render VIR useless once that building goes up, make terrain impossible to hide things behind, etc. and so forth.
Just being able to see through the terrain like that to pick up on turrets hiding behind things before you can actually see them is a bad thing, in my opinion, even more so if you don't have to give up some ammo to do it. That little ammo consumption could mean the difference between a dead you and a dead turret.
Just because most players don't see it as something that affects balance doesn't mean it has no effect on balance. You have to build the thing for a reason, and it consumes ammo for a reason. It may seem 100% useless 99% of the time, but having it cost nothing while you use it would still affect balance.
You are not understanding something WZ. Firstly in BZI it did have a function because you could combine it with Hornet/comit cruise Rockets, But that kind of balencing ATM doesnot work because Thermal Tracking is still deflected by VIR. A bug that has yet to be fixed, even though the odf's say it should work, and thermal locking worked in BZI.
Also, The fact that Site Camera at the moment is never ever used because the Cost of its ammo *and* the fact you cannot use Redfield/Mcurtain/Mits/Phantom VIR is simply not worth the abilty to see though terrain.
If it cost no ammo then it woudl still never be used. If the thermal missile class bug was fixed...then *mabey* it might get used because Hornet and Site cam on a Hammer (fe unit) would be a good counter to RedField /Mag Sabres.
But as it stands it is simply just an easter egg.
As I said, even though it seems useless most of the time, even though very few people would use it, it still should have some ammo cost for those that do use it.
I will not say that the cost shouldn't be lowered, only that the cost shouldn't be taken away 100%.
This so much tactical and stratigical pressure going against its use, Any ammo cost notop of the fact you are using a special weapon slot will simply nail its coffin shut.
Its just a Radar system thats all, i see no reason why it should cost ammunition if all it does is improves your sensors.
Because it makes your sensors do things they normally can't. You can get a line of sight through terrain, seeing things that your radar can't even see are there. You may not be able to target them, but you can see that they are in fact there. If it only showed you what your radar could see it would be one thing, but it doesn't. It shows you everything on the other side of the terrain, even things your radar has no clue are there.
True, my error. However you are not taking into account that it takes up the special hard point. That alone is cost enough for the abilty to see though terrain.
On the other hand, it was your choice to use it instead of something else. You may feel that knowing if the enemy has turrets around that tight bend is more important then having another special that does nothing to aid you against them.
Just like every other special, Site Cam has ups and downs. One of the downs is that it tends to be considered useless in most situations. That does NOT mean it shouldn't follow the rules of every other weapon you can turn on and off. When you turn it on, it has to get power from somewhere, which happens to be your ammo reserve.
In some ways, it is like taking VIR and reversing the effect, so instead of making you invisible to everyone else, it makes other things appear invisible to you. Granted, it only works on terrain, but the fact that it is doing it means it should, logically, cost at least as much per second as VIR does.
No it doesnt Cmptrwz, saying '' oh they can chose to use it or not'' just means that in-game noone will actually use it and you have wasted what could be a cool addition to the game.
The way i see it is that it is an improvment on BZI technology. And what it does is take up the internal space that would normally have a special (such as a prox or phantom VIR or something) and replace it with scanning equipment. That means that one should just turn the Scanning equpiment 'on' or 'off'.
You do not go around saying that the Light on the front of a sabre should cost ammo, so why should SiteCam?
Also, from a stragicall point of view this would mean that the weapon might actually in some odd situations get *used*. Having it cost as much ammo as Phantom Vir is Ridiculas.
EDIT :
QuoteJust like every other special, Site Cam has ups and downs. One of the downs is that it tends to be considered useless in most situations. That does NOT mean it shouldn't follow the rules of every other weapon you can turn on and off.
The site cam does not have 'ups and downs'. It has a tiny up and a very large down. I am arguing that the down should be made to at least match the tiny up. you are saying that it should remain like it is...useless.
QuoteYou may feel that knowing if the enemy has turrets around that tight bend is more important then having another special that does nothing to aid you against them.
Again, your lack of in-game experience shows. Solar Flare is *very* good at killing turrets. If i want to know if turrets are around a tight bend, i go around and quickly pop back to *look*. then i go get solar flare and kill them if they are that much of a threat. Or i can use mdm's, or Shads if i can work around the corner. Also, since deployed turrets are just about the only thing you target though terrain, the only real help you wuld get from using Site camera EVEN IF it cost no ammo was
seeing things within range of a Jammer
Seeing a Red Field Mag Sabre though terrain.
Just the fact that you *spend* a special hardpoint to have Site Cam is enough. Even then its still only going to be useful in certain situations.
Also, If the Thermal Missile bug was fixed, then the site cams 'up' might just get as big as its 'down' ...the down being the cost of a special hardpoint slot.
I do completely and fully understand what you are saying wz. However, I think you're misunderstanding the 'cost' of using sitecam.
See, even without ANY ammo cost whatsoever, hell, even if sitecam *GAVE* you ammo, it still has a very large and real cost - 1 special slot.
As long as you are armed with sitecam, you are constantly using up a special slot - that special slot is one of the most important elements of BZ2 gameplay. The special slot with ISDF typically gives you the choice between -
a. Being able to beat a turret-pump with ease using solar flare.
b. Being immune to image, heat, or radar seeking missiles with VIR.
c. Being able to protect your base or forces from mortars and sonic cannons - doubling up with an ability to extend the range of your travelling ordinance significantly, with M-curtain.
Giving up one of these 3 abilities is a cost, using ammo is *more* of a cost. The ability to see through terrain is a *tiny* advantage. In my opinion, that advantage is outweighed simply by *one* of the above costs, nevermind both. Even if it used NO ammo, the cost of losing the special slot is still too much to justify the use of sitecam.
See... ammo costs are one thing, vehicle weapon slot costs are another thing, so even without ammo drain, sitecam still has a huge cost. Balance is all about balancing the costs with the benefits, and sitecam, even using NO ammo at all, would not be balanced.
If it cost no ammunition and gave you the abilty to target and attack Redfield or Jammer-protected objects then it would mabey be balenced. It would also have a role as a 'counter' to Jammers and red field sabers.
of course, that would have to be an extra feature.
.. or how about SITE cam auto-painting (ie: scout, motion detector style) would be a nice feature that might balance SITE cam in.
ZA - that would be an exceptionally good ability. Even if it had a range of only a hundred metres, it would still be very good, perhaps overpowered.
What would you say to SITE cam being able to be on for only a short time, say 5 seconds? I think it should cost ammo as well. Don't the other specials also use ammo?
yes but as already discussed the 'cons' of Site Cam have to be reduced as much as possiable.
Also, Site Cam does not 'do' something to the enviroment like the other specials. It changes something only the user can see.
for the visual wireframe see through walls thing. i think fe has a little thing that lets you see like the site cam. very helpful in the piliot map with the fog.
wiz, dont you think u should play the game 1st? no offense
VIR and RED don't change the environment, just change what others can see of your ship using sight or radar, much like a Scion Jammer acts the same as RED by blinding the ISDF radar.
Good question though: Having a counter to VIR by giving SITE that ability to defeat VIR. We can still see smoke emitted by burning craft and see thrust jets, so that helps.
Having SITE use ammo is necessary, otherwise it's just like turning wireframe mode on all the time.
As in RL, there must always be balance. "You do not gain somethng, but that you lose something." is the rule to follow.
ur just proving u dont know about balance, nor how gaming goes, at least with the exprienced players (yes, VETS)
when and why or for what will u use site cam? espciely when it takes ammo?
when? NEVER
now, when will u use site cam if takes no ammo?
probably never as well, if ur smart ull use something more useful, the whole thing about VIR, is not for the "sneakniess" its for the locking of missiles,
VIR ships can be seen while painted (by other team m8s or an AI scout), by targeting, on radar, and when u just look at them ull see their name and hull
QuoteHaving SITE use ammo is necessary, otherwise it's just like turning wireframe mode on all the time.
As in RL, there must always be balance. "You do not gain somethng, but that you lose something." is the rule to follow
AAARGH!
Christ this is irritating. Could you at least acknowledge that you have read and understand the concept of the special hardpoint itself, something amazingly useful and which you only have one of, being a very high cost, with or without ammo drain?
At least ackowledge that you understanding that losing a special hardpoint is a cost in itself, then go on to disagree, rather than parping on about 'there must be balance' without even understanding how UNBALANCED something as weak as site camera taking a whole special slot is.
Gotcha. Then VIR and RED should not use ammo also because they are also taking up the valuable special HP.
omg, but they are useful! site cam isnt!!!!!
I still don't think you understand RD.
VIR and RED are useful... They're very useful in fact. To BALANCE their use with their penalties, you have to have a special slot AND an ammo cost.
SITE camera is so bad it's close to useless. Even with no ammo cost it would still rarely be used. Balance is about weighing up the pros with the cons. VIR is a big pro, so it needs a big con... ammo cost and the special slot. SITE camera is a tiny, TINY pro, so it needs a tiny con, and taking up a special slot is too much, never mind taking up ammo as well.
okok - lets go over this:
VIR - dodging shads, preaty useful sometiems for sneak attacks - most used
red field - others cant target you (very very useful), sadly - u can still be painted, ur also invisable on rader, as long as u have 2 people on red field - its DAMN awasome, sadly - people need vir / m-curtiens and the ammo cost is quite a problem, although it same like vir - but u dont use vir for fights (usualy)
prox - comes before arm, deploy your rec and go mod ur scout with prox besides the fact that u dont anything for that, its preaty useful, 3 prox will kill a scion scout (2 to red), 4 (might be 5 not sure) will kill an isdf scout, and also nice dmg to tanks...
solar flare - u can kill something like 27/28 rats in 1 run - need i say more?
mits - get a tank stuck up in a mits, easy target - bye bye tank
m-curtien - the 2nd most used, deflects mortars therfor als being used for big assults (ass tanks / rckt tanks / rats on field etc') can be also good for running since the target might bump ur m-curtien which will slow him down
also good for pummel rushes since the curtien will deflect the gt plasma
now,
Site cam - lets you see through hills (which u could've do with alt+4 in 1.2 anyways) - taking up ammo by time, and what use does seeing through hills got? the only good use i can think of it is for maps like hilo, if they got rats in the corner that you cant see, so u activate site cam for a sec, although if ur a scout just run there and chcek / ask team m8s - or go with caution, lets pretend for a sec it lets you c vir ships, you could see vir ships when targeting, on radar, painted or just looking at (since u see hull and name) --> its useless AND taking ammo AND taking the speciel slot?
all other speciels will save ur life, cause major dmg, help you kill some1, will save your base (or slow / unmoving units) on the field from mortars (and maybe shads[talking about m-curtien] - sometimes)
the big question now, what speciel will you use (order) even if site cam had no ammo and could see vir ships
my order is the following:
VIR (as soon as arm up --> shads up - and usualy ppl get full scouts with shads - no vir --> dead)
m-curtien
prox
solar
red field
mits
site cam
more to add - if it was up to me to balance site cam id say - keep the ammo penalty but make it so the radar will work always (which includs no seeing red field ships), "perfact radar" - not outside ur range like the radar cheat though... + see vir ships
Should keep Site the way it is and make it an upgrade that appears on all ships without taking a slot. :p
That'd be nice. Or just make maps that are nice for ambushes, were you have to hide your laser turrets (laser because they are ambush vehicles!) behind all kinds of things to have an advantage. Now that would make the SITE damn usefull.
The map should have quite some turrets to begin with and lots of hills and the like, no bio-metal but a redeployable recycler and much loose scrap (scrap spawning). Using scavs as bait, 2 scouts head over there, and when they go past the hill, zaaaa! Light show, bie bie scouts (and the scav they took with them), hello scrap. What would have happen if the ISDF player used SITE camm? He sees the turrets, takes a splinter mortar bike and forces the turrets out of their hiding place, where they are hopeless against 2 scouts they didn't know about.
That's when SITE camm comes in usefull.
I remember using wireframe (console) in a few games, but then stopped because it wasnt useful. I liked the pretty colors better, plus I got pretty much the same functionality by hitting 'T' every 2 seconds as a force of habit.
Even if site did highlight targets within 150m, it wouldnt help unless you were being hit by multiple opponents (which is especially where it will shine) or if someone is using VIR to jump you and you forget to look at the radar (or forget to repeatedly/blindly use your target key while hitting pools).
Quote from: HuscarThat'd be nice. Or just make maps that are nice for ambushes, were you have to hide your laser turrets (laser because they are ambush vehicles!) behind all kinds of things to have an advantage. Now that would make the SITE damn usefull.
The map should have quite some turrets to begin with and lots of hills and the like, no bio-metal but a redeployable recycler and much loose scrap (scrap spawning). Using scavs as bait, 2 scouts head over there, and when they go past the hill, zaaaa! Light show, bie bie scouts (and the scav they took with them), hello scrap. What would have happen if the ISDF player used SITE camm? He sees the turrets, takes a splinter mortar bike and forces the turrets out of their hiding place, where they are hopeless against 2 scouts they didn't know about.
That's when SITE camm comes in usefull.
how often will that happen?
took you a paragraph to explain when its useful.
on another note, you can use m-curtain to make things go farther/faster?
It will happen when ppl will play that way (and with good maps). Oh well it will be handy in my mod since more units will have that ability (NOD cloack!)
Huscar, you too, should play the game 1st, besides that - NO people will not use site cam in the example you gave, it'll take more ammo then its worth (u said to keep it as it is...)
Well ammo reduction is needed for sure. But what do you prefer? Loosing a scout or a bit of ammo? And no matter how much I play the game I will never see such situation as nobody plays like that. Plus there are no maps for this type of gaming (if you want to force it).
well, if u take site cam on your scout, in the situationm you gave ull die cause of shads
the way you putting it, there are few maps for it,
1. mars
2. quarry
3. quite alot of the bac maps
and some more
more to add - use ur radar
and besides that
site cam will force you to run, where without it - you could've fight since u got ammo
I understand the site camera taking ammo (converting it to energy for use), and as for things already on the tank like lights, the tank already generates enought energy to supply those and in some cases heal and rearm. I would like it with a much lower (slower, unnoticable) ammo cost, but the ammo cost is kindove how the tecknology works.
did anyone wonder how the tanks float, or has it beed decided that biometal ships of small mass repel non biometal objects?
We did and started flame wars for it, better not mention that now.
@ PhoeniX-FlamE if those maps have more than 2 pools it's not what I mean. Besides, when bio-metal is that low, it might be better to run that to loose a ship that you paid for, giving the opponent more bio-metal.
sure, but you wont need site cam for that,
your better off with something that will save your life on the run (mits prox m-curtien or VIR) use your radar, besdies that, site cam force you to kill 1 pool a run, without it you could kill a pool and a scav or so... im not even sure if you'll be able to finish 1 pool with site cam (scout with chains and site cam)
also, dont forget that if your on 1 pool you'll probably have an empty scout, or an m-curtien if other team got tanks
and i know what you mean, when the enemy can come from a hill or something alike... look at quarry - on the middle side pools, u can use site cam to see around - but its still useless
anyways, this is a pointless argue, you dont even play the game to know how things realy works, and im just wasting my time repeating and replying over and over again, ill be surprised if nathan even reads all this hoot - or will bother to do anything, I dont see people playing 1.3 for 1.3 (all those that want 1.3 are waiting for the mods [exept g66 or mpi]) so im sure the mod-makers will do somethnig about it, no point argue here since it wont change anything
this is my last reply on the issue
cheers
Quote from: PhoeniX-FlamEill be surprised if nathan even reads all this hoot - or will bother to do anything
Hehe, I doubt it as well.
Hey the only thing I was saying is that if you want a use for site cams it would be to reduce the ammo cost a bit and make maps that make it more usefull, I won't see those things even if playing will I? Besides, why do you think I don't play the game?
(I change issue)
because what you are talking about is already exsisting in some maps + whats the point of making a map for 1 weapon, why not make the weapon be useful and fit to ALL maps?
Ooooh! I got another idea for Site CAMM, make it show some sort of spectral trail when a vehicle uses Blink.
there is a trail, the vehicle just glides to point :lol:
Only in 1.2. :p
Hmm... I can see DF, JWK and PF's point of view, but in my opinion you are going the wrong way. Maybe pay a little attention to some of the ideas that have been posted here.
Ok, first, this is what you are trying to do.
-) Original weapon has very small good points, large bad points. You are reducing the bad points. Good, but that still leaves you with very little reason to USE the item.
How about you increase the good points and leave it consuming ammo?
1) Already fixed I think, don't allow wireframe to be selected via the console like 1.2.
2) Make it reveal VIR units. Not just that, since you can now SEE the VIR units, make there weapons work like normal.
3) Since you can now SEE throught terrain aswell, allow turrets to be targeted throught the terrain.
I believe this would make the weapon actually USEFUL in a game, where just making it consume no ammo will not.
too bad it probablly wont happen...
I like your points, NoK. Yours too, APC. There's always opportunity to make things better and BZ has a lot of untapped potential.
If the weapon used no ammo (which makes sense, your taking up the special weapons interal space with advanced sensor equipment) *and* let one target things though terrain, then it would be usefulish.
If on top of this it allowed you to see vir units as if they had no vir, but didnt allow you to attack them with missiles, then it would be in the same leauge as prox or mits.
If it could target turrets behind walls (i.e. gave you line of sight painting to any unit within range, reguardless of jamming fields/terrain/etc) and allowed you to see VIR units and ATTACK them with shadowers.
Well then i would rate it as being as useful as m curtain or phantom, and thus would be worthy of a normal ammo cost to keep balenced.
Looking through buildings and no ammo cost... bah.
once again huscar, what you say makes no sense.
Site cam doesnt let you see though buildings, and as previously stated in this thread, unless the SITE cam gets some kind of massive improvment it is simply not worth the 'special slot'. In its current form it is actually worth less than having *no special* becasue with no special you can cycle weapons quicker.
Might be nice to have as a pilot though.
alt+4 in 1.2 :D
anyways, noky, if you could hit VIR ships - the only maybe from all the 3 points
and besides, I think it'll ruin VIR
the best thug on a team - the one that can dodge shads even without VIR will use site cam making all the others who use VIR die, ppl wont use VIR anymore, im sure you do know - that the main use of VIR is to dodge shads, and not "being invisable"
so basicly, if you do want to change a weapon, make sure it wont effect and ruin other weapons (speciels in this case)
the other ideas, of having no ammo cost and seeing VIR ships wont effect the main use of VIR or any other specil
and more to add - in my opnion the best way to make site cam useful is ammo cost, see vir ships, target turrets (because u can see them) and a 'perfact' radar (only ur area, not whole map + still cant see/target red field or jammer areas)
if they use site to see shads, youll stop using vir and switch to something that would make it harder to lock on/chase you. i like faf better than shad, you can actually use it in dogfighting.
Phenoix made a good point that if one could see VIR ships with SITE came, then it would make VIR less useful.
This is true up to a point.
The only shiptwo ships that can have SITe and Shadowers are the Scout and the Missile scout.
Also, the act of using SITE as a counter to VIR means that your resources (the special slot) are tied up in the action-counter-anti-counter-etc game.
Also, the VIR you have would still protect you from shadower armed ships, human and AI alike, whom have no SITE cam.
This is the plan i would personally go for
Site cam should allow you to target anything you can 'see' whilst it is activated. It should allow you to see in some shape or form, VIR cloaked units, and use missile locks on them. In this scenario it would require the use of ammo to make it balenced.
i like forcing ai ships to use vir, can really confuse people :lol:
I have an idea, although it may be impossible to implement.
normal use of SITE to see through terrain and target units has no ammo cost. while a 'invisible' ship is on screen, the ammo cost is slight and every lock on performed with the SITE costs ammo.
This makes sence although I dont see how it would be implemented.
SITE should also technically increase the sight range to a much higher level. im sure framerates wont be much affected by all that wireframing... on that topic it should increase the radar range also while active.
the only reason I could see to use SITE now would be on a missile scout, to be able to target buildings and units across terrain and fire the shads at an angle. Actually, this is an amazing idea in my opinion, but many people would argue it would contribute to being 'cheap' too much.
Im realy realy realy against the idea of locking on VIR ships
Maybe VIR, RED Field and Site CAMM should be balanced to cancel each other out. For example, Site CAMM makes VIR almost useless, VIR somehow makes RED Field almost useless, and RED Field makes Site CAMM almost useless by making the ship using RED dissappear from the ship using Site CAMM (Like VIR makes ships vanish from sight but vanishes on radar too.) by both canceling radar contact and image contact since the enhanced sensors the Site CAMM uses probably rely in large part on radar.(Or at least that's a pretty decent sounding load of crap we can use to explain it.:mrgreen:) In short, Site CAMM beats VIR, VIR beats RED, RED beats Site CAMM.
anyone up for a game of SITE VIR RED? :lol:
I thought SITE cam was simply putting on your hud view what the radar sees, so it should make VIR units normal and units with RED invisible... so lock on on VIR would be an idea, but the missiles shouldn't follow it. And of course no ammo cost and 1 scrap worth as a power-up. Still need inprovements...
Again huscar, what you have typed is sadly not coherent..
Back to the SITE cam topic. Fox came out with a good idea just then. The abilty to use SITE cam to get visual locks on objects though terrain, and then fire the shadowers 'around' the hill.
If sitecam allowed you to paint targets with whom you have a visual lock (e.g. turrets or a Red field equpied unit or jammed unit behind a hill) *and* allowed for shadower use (e.g. firing a shadower around a hill to hit a turret), then i would say that is a useful weapon, esp in 1.3 where jammers are done properly.
So now we have two plans.
Plan one
Site cam should allow you to target/paint/usebomber anything you can 'see' whilst it is activated (regardless of radar cloaking). It should allow you to see in some shape or form, VIR cloaked units, and use missile locks on them. In this scenario it would require the use of ammo to make it balenced.
Plan two
Site cam should allow you to target/paint/use bomber anything you can 'see' whilst it is activated (regardless of radar cloaking). It should allow you to use missile locks on targets that are behind terrain and are visable. In this scenario it would require a 0 ammo usage to make it its pros and cons balenced.
Plan two sounds like something that is easier to balence and make functional (which is good for the Dev's the Modders and the Vets...which is what we want right?). It would mean that against ISDF Site cam doesnt have much use, but against scions and their jammers, it becomes very useful.
As a side issue, i always thought that SITE cam should increase your radar signature (since its an 'active' not 'passive' sensor system)...but thats just a nice touch thats unimportant and not really nessesary.
It's just sad to see ppl who don't know what an addition is.
Huscar, WHAT are you rambling about?
@PF. Yes, I can see that happening, but remember site cam will use ammo, so its not like he could ran around with VIR on all day. Plus it would be harder to do the flicking on/off like we do with VIR, since you have to wait for the lock. Maybe having it higher in the tech tree help in this case.
I like JWK's idea of increased radar sig aswell, even if it is only a minor issue. Seems like a nice touch.
err noky, what? lol
ur saying a site cam could lock on vir, when do you use vir mostly? when you run... so - when someone start running flick your site cam and go kill him, ive seen some people dodge shads so damn fine without VIR that once they get site cam all the rest with the VIRs will be useless
hence - taking off the most importent thing about VIR
in my opnion - locking on VIRed ships is not an option - ammo cost or not
I like plan two, but I think you should add ammo cost and like i said before and ur small lines in the end hemp - improve the radar
I was propossing side features, since nothing of this will ever reach Nathan or Ken...
However I wouldn't make it cost 0 ammo (plan 2 is best), instead balance the cost in such a way that with a scout reload time you don't get MORE ammo while using SITE camm, in exchange a longer and more frequent radar view.
BTW, will a turret in a tunnel beneath you appear on radar? Otherwise, that might be a use for it (but I don't see that happening)
Quote from: Jwk the Hemp MonkeyPlan one
Site cam should allow you to target/paint/usebomber anything you can 'see' whilst it is activated (regardless of radar cloaking). It should allow you to see in some shape or form, VIR cloaked units, and use missile locks on them. In this scenario it would require the use of ammo to make it balenced.
Plan two
Site cam should allow you to target/paint/use bomber anything you can 'see' whilst it is activated (regardless of radar cloaking). It should allow you to use missile locks on targets that are behind terrain and are visable. In this scenario it would require a 0 ammo usage to make it its pros and cons balenced.
there is one big problem with all of this. any form of these makes site camm more powerful by not making itself better, but by making other things weaker. biggest use, especially in 1.3, is the bombing jammed objects. completely counters point of jammer, if no jammer then not useful. chain when compared to mini, is best decribed as an upgrade, useful in almost any situation better than mini (not with zst turrets though). while many other weapons rely on depowering of other things, those are known to be balanced. its just useless unless you want to deal with balance, and balance wont be worked with at all. Maybe if it made more of the map visiable (with buildings) then it would be more useful, and it doesnt require balancing stuff.
think of it this way. if its high in the tech tree, then the ISDF's counter to jammers is to *tech* and produce a utility that will replace a vehicle's special slot, and this will allow the ISDF player to effectively use his or her bomber. The scion team can then have a response to this tactic, for example an upgrade to the jammer which makes it block even SITE cam scans.
However, im strongly for the SITE cam being given a few extra functions, such as shadower locks through terrain, since it would be a great counter strategy.
That would be try PF, if it wasn't made up higher in the Tech tree. What if you needed training to get it? Then you would have to choose between getting site cam first or blast first. Thats a decent compromise I believe. Don't 4get, whlie they have sitecam, they can't have vir themselves, so they are easier targets. Maybe have the lockon time for shads vs VIR ships half the speed. That way, one vs one, shads/VIR will beat shads/Cam
Quote from: Spawnbiggest use, especially in 1.3, is the bombing jammed objects. completely counters point of jammer.
This is slightly off-topic and worthy of being considered spam but anyway, with my modified Popper(Stats at bottom, stock Popper is crap,which will be included in a ZIP full of weapon fixes I'm working on, bah anyway.)Poppers can be a pretty good Bomber defense which gives Scions a contingency Bomber defense for when the ISDF gets Site CAMM.
shotDelay = 1.5
(Pre-Pop)
ammoCost = 50//20.0
lifeSpan = 1e30
shotSpeed = 40.0//20.0
damageValue(N) = 70 // none
damageValue(L) = 60 // light
damageValue(H) = 50 // heavy
damageValue(S) = 60 // standard
damageValue(D) = 50 // deflection
damageValue(A) = 70 // absorbtion
(Post-Pop)
ammoCost = 30
lifeSpan = 2.3 // 230m
shotSpeed = 100.0//50.0
damageValue(N) = 375
damageValue(L) = 300
damageValue(H) = 275
damageValue(S) = 200
damageValue(D) = 250
damageValue(A) = 300
anyone else think its funny we are arguing about something that will never happen? May have before, but the whole site jammer thing requires much more effort than making it cost less or whatever. Also the vir shads wouldnt make sense. shadowers (the missle itself) lock on by visual, so it could lock on using ship for help, but then its blind like normal on the feild.
I'd like to see a leader round from the TAG cannon used as a tracker ala the special sniper round used on the Scions in the 4th SP mission.
Lets get back on topic then. With plan two
Site cam should allow you to target/paint/use bomber anything you can 'see' whilst it is activated (regardless of radar cloaking). It should allow you to use missile locks on targets that are behind terrain and are visable. In this scenario it would require a 0 ammo usage to make it its pros and cons balenced.
you do have an affective counter to the Jammer...but on the same note you lose a special slot.
In affect the act of using jammer makes the other team use SITE instead of phantom vir (useful against multilock and stingers) or Redfield (useful against wasps) or Mits (great for traping scions and putting down the hurt).
Having the Site cam cost no ammo is still nessesary in this scenario to make this worth while, because if it did cost ammo one would do better by simply bringing along an AI scout (who paints all targets within 450m) whilst maintaining the abilty to lay mines/go invisable/become radar cloaked.
Also, as i mentioned before, the 2nd plan seem much easier to impliment for everyone. Making things as easy for the Dev's as possiable is a concern.
I don't think they are gonna look at that at all, it would be nice though.
an ai scout wouldnt work in 1.3
in 1.2 it would, but jammer doesnt even work there so its really pointless.
ai wont paint things in 1.3 if they are in a jammer.
and losing a special slot is not really worth painting in a jammed area. You can use bomber or ai ships, and only one human would need to do it and for a short time. the other humans could all have better utility mines for fighting.
and jammers are a really big pain, for they would actually work. Unlike 1.2...
i suggest you go and test it first, and yes...having the multipul players (e.g two other tanks than just the SITE-equiped player) is sort of counted by the fact you have 3 other scion players as well......
Go and test the AI scout painting thing.