Hey, it's Adam again.
And after playing a more than 2 hour long game last night(with APCsrevil, piglet, and some other people), I've got some bugs to report.
You guys may or may not know about them, but its worth reporting so here goes:
1)The turrets do not turn fast enough. It is not that they are unaccurate, it's just that if you get really close to them and strafe around them they don't turn fast enough to hit you. Please fix this.
2)In one game I ordered a constructor to build something (a fac) in a green location. He went there and right before he built it, one of my wingmen got in the way. He said "Can not build there", or something to that effect, then Boom! I couldn't build with him anymore. I waited a couple minutes...told him to move. He was pretty much worthless. The build bar in his menu was greyed out permanently (I recycled him). I know that this situation probably won't happen much, but if you get time plz fix.
3)The AI is a huge improvement from v1.2, but there is still a long way to go. Pathfinding is pretty bad and they could be better at dogfighting. Mauler pathfinding is especially bad.
4)Consider reverting to the old BZ system, using strafe+jump+forward did not make you faster...This would make AI ships more effective as you couldn't hover as easily or escape as fast. This would also be more realistic.
5)I'm sure you know this but I'll say it again. The later the game gets the more laggier it gets. There gets to be some major jumping and lag in the late game...I'm not sure why but this probably needs to be addressed.
6)In 1.3 it seems that ships (only human controlled) get especially jumpy when they strafe back and forth. I'm not sure why of this but probably needs to be addressed.
7)I've heard that empty scouts lag more than normals. Is this true? If so it probably needs to be fixed.
8)Maybe there needs to be some better scion bomber defense. Jammers don't seem to cut it as I guess you can 'paint' a target and they (the jammers) are pretty much worthless. I guess whether you change this is at your discretion, but I think it kinda takes the point out of spending 50 scrap on jammers if they are of no use...
9)Sometimes (only when in a LAN or net game) when you are queuing up scavs, the game will take an extra 20 scrap away from you and give you nothing. This happens pretty rarely, but enough to make it a problem. Please fix.
I know that this a lengthy report of bugs (and suggestions) but if you got to this point thank you for reading it and at least considering what I said.
Please don't freak out if some of the bugs I have mentioned have been covered before, I'm just trying to help. (That means no rude posts, you know who you are)
Thanks again to all the people who have devoted their time on 1.3 and in this community period.
The results of your efforts shall not be squandered.
Thanks again,
Adam :)
Quote from: WingflierMaybe there needs to be some better scion bomber defense. Jammers don't seem to cut it as I guess you can 'paint' a target and they (the jammers) are pretty much worthless. I guess whether you change this is at your discretion, but I think it kinda takes the point out of spending 50 scrap on jammers if they are of no use...
I agree that Scions need better Bomber defense, Popper Archers are supposed to be a Bomber defense but the Popper travels too slowly to hit the Bomber most of the time, and Jammers are not guaranteed to stop Bomber attacks, as Spawn so lovingly demonstrated in that game. But Jammers are far from useless, they don't allow any targeting in their jamming radius, the AI can't be ordered to attack anything in their jamming radius either, that includes Bombers, but once anything is painted there is no way to "Un-paint" it, and at that point Jammers offer ZERO defense against Bombers or any other AI unit. If you ask me making Poppers an effective Bomber defense would be a good idea.
Quote from: WingflierThe turrets do not turn fast enough. It is not that they are unaccurate, it's just that if you get really close to them and strafe around them they don't turn fast enough to hit you. Please fix this.
That was done so that turrets wouldn't be too powerful, with their new accuracy, the slow turning speed is about the only way to kill one. Other than longer range weapons, which IMHO should be the only way to kill turrets, except for Solar Flares.
Quote
Quote1)The turrets do not turn fast enough. It is not that they are unaccurate, it's just that if you get really close to them and strafe around them they don't turn fast enough to hit you. Please fix this.
Other than longer range weapons, which IMHO should be the only way to kill turrets
TURRET ABUSE EARLY GAMES - GG
3. [sarcasim] ya! make em better then human players, so thugs would have no use[/sarcasim]
4. no thx
5. you do know that will probably need a new netcode and probably a new engine?
6. same for 5
7. im not sure
8. what spawn said
9. its not just scavs, and sometiems its before you even get to build the 2nd one
Quote from: PhoeniX-FlamE8. what spawn said
i didnt say anything...
bomber isnt that great apc, you KNOW all its weaknesses. Just paint it, then kill the bomb. Its not very hard. Jammers are meant to be weak, you can easily kill a few with a tank. Arckers arent great against a bomber, not anywhere near as effective as a hornet rocket tank. If you get a swarm of poper archers though, it should be enough.
or you can use a scout to paint bomber...
oops, I ment what apcs said
and true, bomber isnt that much of a threat once you know its up
but still, its quite "unfair" isdf can get a decent auto defense while scions cant (poper archers do poor job :s )
It would be so much easier if Titan could get an AI class that can attack air. By the time other tieam has a bomber, the scion team would have a Titan.
you know that if you directly tell an ai ship to attack something flying that it will regardless of anything?
Quote from: WingflierHey, it's Adam again.
2)In one game I ordered a constructor to build something (a fac) in a green location. He went there and right before he built it, one of my wingmen got in the way. He said "Can not build there", or something to that effect, then Boom! I couldn't build with him anymore. I waited a couple minutes...told him to move. He was pretty much worthless. The build bar in his menu was greyed out permanently (I recycled him). I know that this situation probably won't happen much, but if you get time plz fix.
I just had that on CHILL. I told a Scion Builder to build a GS next to the West Ramp to the AI base, at the top of the hill. It showed green and buildable but once I actually hit the build the Builder said "I don't think so", even though I was still out 75 scrap... I wonder if there's a discrepency now between where it shows he can build and where he can actually build?
Quote3)The AI is a huge improvement from v1.2, but there is still a long way to go. Pathfinding is pretty bad and they could be better at dogfighting. Mauler pathfinding is especially bad.
Pathing hasn't been and won't be touched for the most part. Nathan and Ken had nothing to do with the pathfinding, and have both stated that they don't want to dig into it as it's especially messy in there...
What's changed are vehicle handling characteristics, bugs in AI routines such as targeting, and some building characteristics such as COM point location, collision box, etc.. All of these little changes have made for some interesting pathing choices by the AI...
I disagree about Maulers, they have some very cool moves. They don't tend to hang around on top of buildings as much as they used to, but a herd of them will now just blast through a bunch of Sabres to attack more distant targets. I love that....
Quote4)Consider reverting to the old BZ system, using strafe+jump+forward did not make you faster...This would make AI ships more effective as you couldn't hover as easily or escape as fast. This would also be more realistic.
urm, actually I think the 'three fingered salute' did make you faster in BZ1. I'm pretty sure that's how Mowerman managed to escape me so often... he was a master of it.
Quote5)I'm sure you know this but I'll say it again. The later the game gets the more laggier it gets. There gets to be some major jumping and lag in the late game...I'm not sure why but this probably needs to be addressed.
Again, there are two types of 'lag' in the BZ2 universe. The kind of 'lag' that shows in the game.histogram or the player list, where client systems are getting behind lockstep... and the 'blink' style warp that AI units do.
The first type causes resyncs and jumpiness for humans.
The second type affects mostly AI and gets worse later in the game because it's caused by random numbers being generated differently between the 'local' and 'multi' worlds. This tends to escalate, especially on the larger maps, the longer the game goes on. Canyons is a good example as for me the AI ends up warping all over the place by the end of the game. (big map, I tend to stay near my base). A lower MWF helps with this as it shortens the jump, but they still warp.
I don't play 'human only' strat, mostly MPI, and then with only one other person, so the rest of these points are a little out of my area...
-Av-
-Av-
someone signed twice
-PF-
-PF- ;)
I like the way the new Maulers tear through a group of Sabres too, what I don't like is that they get hung up on the slightest bump, can't run in a straight line without stopping to save their lives, and have a tendency to not run up hills no matter how much you yell at the little bastards.
P.S. Why don't you just put that little, -Av- thing in your signature instead of having to type it in every time you make a post?
That would probably be impersonal, right Av?
-Sky :D J\K
Quote from: Spawnyou know that if you directly tell an ai ship to attack something flying that it will regardless of anything?
How about you are not in the base when the bomber comes option?
and your point spawn? I still dont find it fair that not enough that isdf HAS the bomber, they got units that shoot and tear it apart ALONE while scions dont
OK, I tried putting it in my signature.
-Av-
-Av-
-Av-
edit: now I get three of the things! lol...
Seriously, I type it by habit at the end of each post, as you can see by the double tap I did... adding it to my signature would mean a double tap each time...
-Av-
Hey Av, can you send me an email? My addy is the same as it has been, and I still have the old @home email addy for you. I knew that was old (it bounced of course), as I think I had a newer one on my laptop (but HD crashed and I reverted to an older contact list on an old HD).
I always felt the "three finger salute" as you so aptly put it, made me go faster, but FON did some experiments and determined it didn't. Although I would nose down and "pump" my jump jets (pump da jump, pump da jump). I still think it helped if you did it just right (staying close to the ground). The strafe jets didn't help, but I would always do a slight diagonal and use them, just to give me a more unpredictable course. Of course for me it wasn't really a "three finger salute" either, as I had my throttle and strafe on the joystick in BZ1 also (target on joy button one, clickity clickity, and jump on joy button two).
Hmm...
I don't know, in BZ1 turrets could hit you no matter what...I don't think there was much abuse back then...
Turrets are easy to counter (mortar bikes and lancers)...maybe we need to make a whole new topic on this or devote a poll to it...The question being:
Should Turrets be able to 'always' hit anything that comes into their weapons' range?
I think this is a legit question...
What do you guys think?
Quote from: WingflierHmm...
I don't know, in BZ1 turrets could hit you no matter what...I don't think there was much abuse back then...
Turrets are easy to counter (mortar bikes and lancers)...maybe we need to make a whole new topic on this or devote a poll to it...The question being:
Should Turrets be able to 'always' hit anything that comes into their weapons' range?
I think this is a legit question...
What do you guys think?
Then they'd be too powerful. We have GTs for a reason.
Actually, I feel that 1.3 lvl3 turrets should be as deadly as ZST turrets. 1.3 lvl2 turrets should be as good as FE turrets, and lvl1 turrets my 5 yo should be able to beat.
Quote from: WingflierHmm...I don't know, in BZ1 turrets could hit you no matter what...I don't think there was much abuse back then...
No they couldn't, I remember circle strafing one as the CCA on that mission where you have to get past the minefield to blow up a small enemy thing that didn't even have a Recycler or Factory, don't know the actual name.. Bah, the point is they had the same crappy turn speed as 1.3's turrets.
Quote from: SkyNETQuote from: WingflierWingflier wrote:
Hmm...
I don't know, in BZ1 turrets could hit you no matter what...I don't think there was much abuse back then...
Turrets are easy to counter (mortar bikes and lancers)...maybe we need to make a whole new topic on this or devote a poll to it...The question being:
Should Turrets be able to 'always' hit anything that comes into their weapons' range?
I think this is a legit question...
What do you guys think?
Then they'd be too powerful. We have GTs for a reason.
I disagree, I think that turrets should be able to hold back low-tech scouts,(Minigun, Chain Gun, Plasma Cannon, Quill.) I mean, that's what TAG Cannon, and Lancers are for, outranging turrets early in the tech tree.
Quote from: AegeisActually, I feel that 1.3 lvl3 turrets should be as deadly as ZST turrets. 1.3 lvl2 turrets should be as good as FE turrets, and lvl1 turrets my 5 yo should be able to beat.
I'm working on a little... thing, of tweaked assets and the turrets seem similar to ZST turrets, although I have never actually fought a ZST turret, my turrets aim straight up and cannot be circled like the stock 1.3 turrets, well, safely.
Heh heh heh... BZ1 turrets... More like "decorations". I could circle strafe three of them, kill them all without even getting touched!
My view on turrets are that they are fine like they are
1 lone turret has never been safe in any stock BZ game.
1.3 turrets are impossiable to circle strafe at 100m.
You can waltz around them faster than they can turn.
Fine, to fix that you just need a minimun of 2 turrets or a newbe.
omg you guys are *Ammo*ing crazy
people are abusing ZST turrets so you wanna make the 1.3 turrets better? you have no idea hows its gonna effect the strat part of the game, if the turrets were better then what they are now I would just build like 4 turrets and put them infront of their base - locking them in it since they wont be able to kill them (they will die million times giving you tons of scrap and wasting scrap --> you get tech while all they did is waste scrap and give it to you + they just wasted LOTS of time)
you can do this 'lockdown' in ZST with all the hovering, so you wanna be able to do it even more deadlier in 1.3? jesus
seriously, I wanna see you get a lancer when you dont even got a builder
hmm, wasting 50 scrap with 1 pool? better off getting a constructor since it aint that hard killing a full scout - tell all your guys to charge it and put turrets abit 'hidden' behind some walls, if the full scout comes out all charge it --> its dead meat and they just wasted even more scrap - giving it to you
and as for scions full scotus - well, the drone *might* be able to drop 1 flare but its dead afterwards, because you got 3 turrets and they dont miss
read: http://www.bzuniverse.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=3055&start=20
page 2 and page 3
Geeze Phoenix Calm down!
No but seriously maybe you're right, people seem to abuse turrets already in 1.3 and they aren't even gosu yet.
I agree with Phoenix that we better just leave good enough alone before we mess something up.
Adam
thinking about the general level of 1.3ers (cept a few), turret rush is a non issue. 1.3 turrets are pretty effective, but their turn is a bit of a problem i think. if you can rush through a group of 3-4 rats (you can if you time it well) they arent very great. either way.
@ boobs, you gotta realize the skill differences between you and a 1.3 player. you may, or may not. oh well, either way.
This is an example of how things get screwed up. "Toying and experimenting" with balance issues started early in 1.3 testing, some of those changes were good, others turned out to be bad...by the time it was realized the effects on the balance of the game(because of the changes) had, it was already screwed up. Nathan had very little intrest in listening to ideas to try to "fix' things...and in retrospect..the decision NOT to try and "re-fix" things may have been a correct one.
But the problem still remains, and the problem may only get bigger. I have no idea how 1.3 is currently regarding "balance"...But I do know you can't just "tweak" a turret. I'm not a modder, but I do know turrets have MANY different variables(rotatation speed, deploy speed, hit%, armour, firing angle, engage range etc etc and I'm sure there are more) So you can't just say "Hey make them Better" or for that matter..."Hey...make them worse" there is so much more to it than that...
Also....You have to bare in mind that the "quality" of the turret has a massive efect on gameplay issues..and the issues vary based upon MPI, SP and Human MP games, so you can't just change things w/o factoring effect for all various gameplay versions(unless Ken is willing to tweak each of the turrets accordingly).
Bottom line is(and always has been) BZ 2 has been a success because 1.2 was near balance(although it admittedly does have its quirks) 1.3 ill someday require alot of balace fixing, I suggest that day wait until you have a LARGE pool of experienced players to test, because the current group of 1.3 players is small, and IF the day comes that the main online community decides to play it, THEY are gonna want it balanced well...not "wily-nilly". And I know, I was already a part of the willy-nilly part.
Edited to remove unnecessary comment.
Calm down everyone... (finger on the LOCK button)
PF and FB are exactly correct, messing with Turrets has been shown to quickly degrade into one of the messiest flamefests I've ever seen. Everyone has a different opinion about how 'good' they should be, and they have a MAJOR effect on Strat from the very start.
So drop it. Until 1.3 is considered 'done' bugwise it's best not to mess with balance issues more than they've already been messed with.
-Av-
Quotethinking about the general level of 1.3ers (cept a few), turret rush is a non issue. 1.3 turrets are pretty effective, but their turn is a bit of a problem i think. if you can rush through a group of 3-4 rats (you can if you time it well) they arent very great. either way.
@ boobs, you gotta realize the skill differences between you and a 1.3 player. you may, or may not. oh well, either way.
I'm kinda lost
1.3 turrets ATM are no issue, but if you make them as good as ZST turrets they are, since alot of people still have problems dealing with ZST turrets with infinite hover - and just to think about it in 1.3 + the skill level of the players is lower (im talking about 1.2 vets compared to 1.3 players) + no infinite hover, which is the best way to kill and dodge ZST turrets
I was talking about what will happend if you make 1.3 turrets as good as ZST ones and in 1.3 theres no infinite hover ( = harder to kill turrets)
oh, and im not pissed or anything :p
im just hmmm agressive about this topic :D
dont take my 'flamming' or attitude seriously in this subject
Actually, I think that the 1.3 players are better at taking down turrets than the 1.2 players, you see, in 1.2 people seem to think they can take them down no matter what weapon they have. Which as far as I can tell is carried over into ZST. (Those are just two observations I made.) Now not too long ago, I saw a 1.3 player in a stock Tank take down three Gauss Guardians without even getting scratched, know how he did it? He used the Mortar. Now if a 1.2 player tried to take down those Guardians odds are he would get his ass shot to hoot because he would attempt to hover them, then back up a bit and circle strafe kill them. Sure a more skilled 1.2 player would use the Tank's mortar, but a utter and complete BZ2 newb who didn't even know enough to make a Tank with upgraded weapons, took down those turrets just as effectively as some 1.2 players would.
P.S. I did not intend to sound offensive or condescending to anyone in that. :mrgreen:
The "weakness" of the 1.3 turret was "discovered" VERY VERY long ago. It is harder to kill than a stock 1.2 turret which was certianly a INTENDED design change, but it was left with a small flaw, one that 90% of dedicated 1.2 and ZST players will learn very quickily. It was known and discussed and rightfully decided to NOT try to change them further, again, seriously discussed, tested and agreed upon, and that was at a time when there was a fair amount of experienced 1.2 MP strat players testing 1.3.
Saying a 1.3 player "knows" how to use a mortar to turret kill is shortsighted, Mortar is a viable option in MPI or in a 1v1 game, but in 4v4 MP games u MIGHT get time to kill 1 turret w/ Mortar, but 90% of the time, opponents are gonna chase you off.....Its the whole story of designing for MPI vs Designing for MP Strat.
Again, this isn't a flame, just a little glimpse of what happened nearly 2 YEARS ago when turrets were being played around with, and why I suggest now, you leave them alone until u get a large pool of human strat players before u start playing with them.
They are they way they are for a reason, go back on the 1.3 beta boards about 2 years ago and you'll probably find some civil(and not so civil) discussions on the turrets....that was before we(some of us) completely desintegrated on testing 1.3.
to each his own eh?
i can live with that :cool:
APCs, play 2-3 weeks in some serious ZST games including players like mad-dog, grass, sentient, hammer, TV [if he'll play], D-MAN, claw, det, bb, both DSes, pred etc' and then come here and tell me 1.3 players are better / smarter then them
gosh, a 1.3 player probably have no chance vs an expreniced 1.2 ZST player - even in 1.3 game
p.s
once again, dont take it as an offense - its just a good lil argue :p
I realy dont think it will get out of hand or anything
apc was only saying how a 1.2 player will use superior doggy ability/hover (many die, good ones wont tho) but the 1.3 noob who makes a stock tank can kill the turrets till they are just as dead. Apc doesnt play 1.2, and he aint good with the physics anyway. he could play in zst, but he doesnt really know 1.2 flow, and he likes weird ships. Oh well, just me talking here...
i tried to get him to come before...
No can do PhoeniX, I've abandoned 1.2, except for a
very rare FE game :mrgreen:. And I'm not saying 1.3 players are smarter, hell I've seen at least four that don't even know how to upgrade the Kiln or Antenna, :cry: I'm saying they would probably fare better against a ZST level turret in a 1v1 situtation than the 1.2 people who would rather get within the turrets range and chain it to death instead of taking a little more time to use a longer range weapon and have a nice distance to start running from an enemy before they can even hit you.
Quote from: Spawnto each his own eh?
i can live with that :cool:
I took that concept into consideration a few hours ago and created a recycler variant that can build the ZST level turrets while leaving stock turrets alone. Ahh, options :mrgreen:.
all sounds nice and dandy, getting a stock tank, too bad you usualy cant spare the power for it + chain kills it alot faster, some can kill it with chains, and the others think they can do it, and if you got stock tank while they 'lock' you down with turrets most likely they almost have blast --> at least chain scouts, and i can assure you your tank is dead
in 1v1 MAYBE it will be better, but thats why you dont play 1v1 on ZST for the simple reason - you just cant
Damn Avatar...you are always so quick on that lock button...
What's so bad about letting us hash it out?
Adam
I am, if anything, much more tolerant than any other Admin around. I've actually asked that threads not be locked, I think one was entitled "Let them have their say" or some such thing.
In this case I knew exactly what sort of dynamite was being played with. Turret discussions get ugly fast. To head that off I simply inserted a subtle reminder that funtime can end abruptly if a little restraint isn't exercised.
Keep it from becoming personal and discuss away, I won't interfere. Flame, and it goes bye-bye.
-Av-
nothing personal, just some good discussion about what turrets modding can do
how about a super turret that can kill 4 things at once, sure, its overpowered, but it would be funny as hell!!
no, its lame :lol:
Quote from: PhoeniX-FlamEnothing personal, just some good discussion about what turrets modding can do
Exactly. Excellent! I love such discussions! We NEED such discussions!
Sadly, it usually turns into "you freakin idiot" or "you don't know jack" so fast it makes my head spin. Keeping it decent and getting input from knowledgable players makes it pure gold, but keeping it civil is like juggling nitro...
-Av-
Av, you freakin idiot - you dont know jack :p
jk bro
I hear ya
anyways, whoever suggested turrets to be better should try ZST, and if you dont manage to kill them with mini / chain scout watch how the vets do it, then think about the fact it cant be done in 1.3
then tell me - and ill show you that 'lockdown' thingy im talking about
Something worth mentioning is that the Turret rotational speed had to be lowered becuase the AI now shoots at the target lead indicator instead of the actual target. They even do that at lvl 0.
:-)
Hi alll -
Hey - one reason that I usually start play during a 1.3 game with a MSL Scout is because I can take out turrets at a distance without being destroyed.
Also, you can adjust the AI Turret skill on Core66 games on the second screen. Just lower the AI turret skill from "high" to "Medium" if it is really too tough for you. :cry:
Mother's Helper
Quote from: PhoeniX-FlamEAv, you freakin idiot - you dont know jack :p
lol
:lol:
Adam
:lol:
Sure - I know Jack.
He is the greeter at the local bordello, although I have never been in there personally. :cry:
Mother's Helper
hmm MSL scout, shads or tag?
shads can be somewhat useful while if you in tag one you'll die horriably, + in some cases you cant even push for a factory
he said start in one, and dm msl scouts have shadower, so hes got shads.