After much thinking and debate, I believe I have come up with a solution to the AI Combat Skill Issue.
If you are one of the Developers of 1.3 please take this into serious consideration:
Instead of only having 3 levels of AI combat skill, I believe there should be 5.
You would not have to change the current levels 1 through 3, just add 2 better levels.
Here is what I believe they should are and should be:
lvl1-Bad
lvl2-OK
lvl3-Good
lvl4-Great
lvl5-'godlike'
The default would still be set at level 3 so that newbies or people who didn't have much of an opinion on AI skill would not have to worry about it.
I think this is a fair compromise/solution because if you do not agree with the host's opinion on how good (or bad) the AI should be, then you don't join his or her game.
It's very simple, it probably wouldn't be hard to implement, and if I could help in any way, please tell me.
Give me some feedback people.
Adam :)
please dont start this again.
there are 4 levels already, ZERO, one, two, three and four
godlike is simply what ZA is currentley working on, itll be in a mod.
ok ok Spawn...not trying to get an argument here...I am not going to argue anymore...
I just wanted feedback.
Thanks : )
Adam
p.s.
what is level 0 Spawn?
level 0 - AI? What AI?
Actually, I think level 0 will attack IF you attack it first, or something tells it to.
what is level 4 AI?
me
what?
There are 4 levels of AI.
0 Quote "AI? What AI?"
1 Good
2 Better
3 Best
And also play 1.2 MPI and then Play 1.3 MPI and you should Immediately notice how much smarter 1.3 AI is.
Thanks for the explanation of the AI levels Bull Dog.
It is, as you have said, very obvious that 1.3 AI is superior to 1.2 AI. Of course...
That's not much to say. 1.2 AI was pretty horrible.
Anywho...
I would think that the current scale would be something more like this:
lvl0)Meat Shield(1 out of 10)
lvl1)Bad(2 out of 10)
lvl2)OK(3.5 out of 10)
lvl3)Good(5 out of 10)
(10 obviously being the best the AI could possibly be)
What do you guys think about adding levels 4 and 5? (lvl 5 being 10 out of 10)
Adam
Ya it MIGHT be nice.......but I'm pretty sure that the AI brain is hardcoded and messing with it may produce even more bugs. I don't think GSH or Ken would wan't to dig into it any more.
Quote from: WingflierThanks for the explanation of the AI levels Bull Dog.
It is, as you have said, very obvious that 1.3 AI is superior to 1.2 AI. Of course...
That's not much to say. 1.2 AI was pretty horrible.
Anywho...
I would think that the current scale would be something more like this:
lvl0)Meat Shield(1 out of 10)
lvl1)Bad(2 out of 10)
lvl2)OK(3.5 out of 10)
lvl3)Good(5 out of 10)
(10 obviously being the best the AI could possibly be)
What do you guys think about adding levels 4 and 5? (lvl 5 being 10 out of 10)
Adam
I think your getting really annoying. You have absolutely no clue as to what you are asking for. For something like new AI levels to be written into the code would require a massive amount of work for both GSH and/or Ken (if he's still around) and the private testers (of which I'm one). I also think somebody should lock this topic before you get unbearablely annoying.
Oh yeah, here's something else (http://www.hottopic.com/Assets/product_images/lg/305988_lg.jpg) :D
Wingflier, I don't want to be rude, but you need to accept BZ2 how it is. Learn how forgive it's quirks and deal with then. If you really wan't some tough AI download the UT2k4 Demo and play an Assualt game 1 v 1 with AI on "godlike". I do believe that that AI it pretty much as tough as you'll find.
The UT AI is still rather easy to kill, even on God-Like. AI is probobly *the* most difficult thing to program.
BZZerker. You don't have to be an ass about this.
Every time I start a topic you start flaming like a little kid.
I am trying to give some adult suggestions, quit being a retard just because you disagree with them...
I haven't said anything before now, but, enough is enough.
I am just trying to help. All these posts are *suggestions*. If you don't understand that go back to 3rd grade. Maybe your teacher will explain.
All you had to say is that:
1) Making better AI would require a lot of work.
2) There are not enough people around to do it and test it.
That would have sufficed. How was I supposed to know how hard it is to create new AI?
Go ahead...lock this topic.
At least then you won't get crucified for giving suggestions..
Adam
Believe it or not, Lv0 AI has its strengths. I was playing this strat game with Lv.0 AI, and the turrets acted just like how a human would behave, its aiming was so bad and wobbly, that it resembled a humans aiming. I wonder if this type of behavior can be useful somehow...
I don't believe that 1.3 touched any AI routines directly, just fixed those issues that held the AI back. In some cases I'm pretty sure Ken mentioned that the AI wasn't even actually LOOKING at whatever they were fighting. Imagine fighting someone when you can't look directly at them, only see them out of the corner of your eye... hehe
Anyway, I believe the 'improved' AI in 1.3 is due to ODF tweaks mostly from the community, fixed bugs that plagued the AI and weapons, and changes in physics that once favored human pilots...
-Av-
humans can still use physics to their advantage vs ai, but now not as greatly
Wing, I honestly have nothing against you but, it seems that you sometimes fail to understand anything unless it's a punch in the face. You failed to understand (in the locked topic) that the AI in fine for the majority of the community and that making "god-like" AI in BZ2 (for the most part) is undesirable. You then turn around (almost as soon as the last topic was locked) and started this topic which basically reiterates (in a different style) the same thing as in the last topic (I'm not the only one to see this thread in that light). This is why I was so rough (yet I didn't flame btw) on you. I will apologize for the bunny though, as that was probably a little over the top. :)
btw, I'd almost be willing to bet money that your younger than me ;)
From what we can all gather, core AI subroutines in the codebase will never be touched (in any of the patch versions, including 1.3). Anything else outside of that is fair game (ODF's, et al). That seems to be the gist of it.
Quote from: BZZERKERWing, I honestly have nothing against you but, it seems that you sometimes fail to understand anything unless it's a punch in the face. You failed to understand (in the locked topic) that the AI in fine for the majority of the community and that making "god-like" AI in BZ2 (for the most part) is undesirable. You then turn around (almost as soon as the last topic was locked) and started this topic which basically reiterates (in a different style) the same thing as in the last topic (I'm not the only one to see this thread in that light). This is why I was so rough (yet I didn't flame btw) on you. I will apologize for the bunny though, as that was probably a little over the top. :)
btw, I'd almost be willing to bet money that your younger than me ;)
BZZERKER....
What part of "Add 2 levels to your
options don't you understand".
I did not ask for a manditory conversion from the stinky 1.3 AI to new 'godlike' AI...I asked for the
option to do that.
If you don't like my preference of AI, then you don't
join my game. This does not reiterate the last topic. This is a new topic with the
option to make the AI better.
Why do you have such a problem with that? I think you just like to start arguments...
Please think about what you are saying before you post things against my ideas.
Adam
We know what you're asking.
Thing is, wing F, you shouldn't be asking for *anything* that can be done without developer help. AI can be improved, and through recycler variants already in 1.3 an extra recycler option can be added called 'extra skill recycler' with the improved AI ships (if you don't think community members can improve the AI, read more of zero angel's threads).
In short, stop asking for developers, whose time is money, to do things for you, when you can do them yourself.
well put DF
k sorry sorry...
it was just an idea.
I will be working on it myself.
I just figured the 1.3 developers where trying to make the game fun for community...
QuoteI just figured the 1.3 developers where trying to make the game fun for community...
They are, and there aren't a great deal of members of the community that want good AI. The better AI, the less important human dogfighting skills are, and the more important strategy is. At the moment there is a fine balance between action and strategy, hence the majority of the community wants the balance to stay.
To further ellaborate, if the AI was amazing (the best it could be, you said in a previous thread) then human wingmen would be pointless, thus the game would be 100% a strategy game, which commanders played entirely from the comm bunker.
Try playing a game of BZ2 against a friend staying in the comm bunker, you'll realise the strategy game on it's own is *very* poor compared to titles like Starcraft, Warcraft3, Dawn of War, Total Annihilation, and even command and conquer. The action and teamwork are necessary to make BZ2 the great game that it is, and thus the human players must pound the AI to the ground in a fight.
Alright...
But the things you are stating still seems like opinion more than facts. (I'm not necessarily saying that they are wrong, just that they are opinions.)
...And I disagree with them...
When I made this post I did not know how hard it is to make the AI better...
Obviously it must be pretty hard after all the comments I received...
But it was just a suggestion...the man idea was to compromise so that everybody could put the AI level to whatever they wanted.
I know of at least a few people who not mind this, and would probably promote it.
And we have not even taken into consideration the people who do not browse through these forums.
Adam
Let me re-iterate since you seem not able to comprehend, AI is *the* single most difficult thing to program in a game and the developers that are working on this patch have not worked on AI before. They have made no changes, no additions, and probobly are not capable of doing so without a great deal more time to learn it.
And what do you mean you will work on it? How would that even be possible. Please stop spouting stuff out without any knowledge on the subject. I have even tried to write a somewhat decent AI on a game I was making; it is, to put it nicely, amazingly difficult. So let me see if I can put this another way. Hush!
Quote from: OvermindDL1And what do you mean you will work on it? How would that even be possible. Please stop spouting stuff out without any knowledge on the subject. I have even tried to write a somewhat decent AI on a game I was making; it is, to put it nicely, amazingly difficult. So let me see if I can put this another way. Hush!
Overmind you are an idiot.
In the same freaking forum that you post this stupidity about how it is
impossible to make the AI better, Zero Angel has given a link to some AI that
are better.
Here it is since you are too dumb to see it:
http://www.bzuniverse.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=3477
Go try those .odfs and then tell me that you can't make the AI better.
I don't won't to see any of your 12 year old posts anymore.
Adam
*lol* OM is one of the most brilliant people on this forum, and you call him an idiot, he did not say it is impossible, and he was not even talking about bz2 ai, but ai in ANY game. In a program he MADE, not a bz2 mod, but he did everything for it, and he is sayning that ai in general is very hard to program.
WF you should really try to not be so insulting. OM1 was not out of line or incorrect in any way. You implied that you were going to improve the AI beyond that which has already been done, which does imply going into the main AI code of the game and tweaking it.
Brad Pickering did most of the AI programming for BZ2. When he was asked about doing some work on 1.3 AI code, his answer was something to the effect... "It makes my head hurt just thinking about it".
It AI is a fine balance. We have all gone through it with service trucks, and turrets, and the consensus dictates that AI should definitly not be too good, as it detracts from gameplay. The AI can easily be made much better than human players, and that would really ruin the game.
Actually mower/spawn, I disagree. Wingflier, if you read back, was saying he'd work on getting AI like zeroangels scout *into* 1.3 via (I assume) a recycler variant as I suggested.
OM jumped in and said "And what do you mean you will work on it? How would that even be possible. ". I thought it was quite clear how it was possible (ZA's scout being a good example), and how he could work on it (putting ZA's scout into a recycler variant).
Having said that, I can see why OM said what he did - wingflier you have come across quite strongly as a fool, mainly for the attitude:
Quote'But the things you are stating still seems like opinion more than facts. (I'm not necessarily saying that they are wrong, just that they are opinions.)
...And I disagree with them... '
The truth is nobody cares a bit what you agree or disagree with, and thus is gets pointless and irritating when you pepper these boards with your opinions and beliefs, after already having demonstrated how ridiculous your beliefs and opinions are ('computer AI is like the agent in matrix, it can never beat a good human').
In short, people have laughed at your opinions and beliefs enough now, and we don't want to hear any more about them. The more we hear about them, the more likely people are to reply in your posts with comments like OM's.
Oh, and yes, OM is a genius.
End of rant, *please* don't reply to my statements with any more opinions or beliefs.
What Zero Angel is doing is not altering the AI itself, he is changing the units to use other preset AI. Again, altering the AI is impossible except on Native Source which no one in the community has access to except for the developer, and he has not the skill to work on it.
Also, there is no need to stand up for me, I am just slightly more irritable right now and have little to no tolerence for a blantent display of a lack of intellegence due to being rather sick...
well, I'm all up for otpions if you can get it to work
personaly, I think it will be ridicouls but sure, if its an option go ahead
Heh.
Quote from: OMHow would that even be possible?[to make the AI better]
I don't have to defend myself...he said it himself.
Quote from: DarkFoxThe truth is nobody cares a bit what you agree or disagree with...
Who died and made you God? There are people who care about my opinion and even agree with me.
If anybody you are the person here with the unbacked opinions and illogical beliefs...
You, as with many people on this board...
Seem to believe you can prove all these things with no evidence.
Go ahead and post about how I am so wrong.
But please try to back it up so I don't have to waste my time like this arguing with you guys.
Nah, forget it...I'm not arguing with you guys anymore...
I made this post...it was a suggestion...you either agree or disagree...
And you post it.
Period.
Hey Wing, IF you think it's possible and IF you get it up and running, I'll surely give it a try. ;)
OM - we're getting onto the age-old debate of defining AI. If AI is making the computer act more like a human would (which I believe it is) then ZA's scout mods certainly make the scout act more like a human (weapon switching, dodging more erratically etc). I'd call that an AI improvement, even if it's not improved code. I fully understand where you're coming from though.
Wingflier - nobody made me god, but you certainly made yourself a laughing stock by claiming that a human could beat a computer whose AI was made as competitive as the programmers could make it, and as such a *lot* of people (read: most) don't value your opinions here because of it. You've perpetuated the problem by repeating and rewording the issue in this topic.
Hey ya gotta admit DF, I was being kind of nice to WF (especially for ME!!!), even if I misinterpreted his intent (but the more he posts, the less I think I misinterpreted). Heh heh heh...
wing, ur starting hoot with almost all of the most respeceted people in bz2
Lets look at it from a different angle:
Wing, the two developers have worked hundreds of man-hours (total of 4 years) on the bug fix aspects of this patch alone. What you're proposing is an almost complete rewrite of the AI to suit your needs.
The question is this: Do you really want the developers to put in another 2 years rewriting the AI, then fixing the new bugs that the rewrite causes, just so you can have a little bit more fun?
I know I dont want to wait another 2 years for the patch, and i'm certain that the devs dont want to spend that much more time either on *your* request. These people are very busy professional programmers who are doing this in their own spare time, so be grateful for that as it is.
Hey ZA, this is just for my reference, but, if a majority of the members here has the same opinion as Wingflier, would another patch be in the question?
No, I dont think so. The developers were real hard on putting in too much extra work re: the hover issue and Nathan in particular made it clear that he doesnt want people thinking they have the right to write blank cheques on his spare time.
I really dont think they would work on another patch for that purpose. We'll just have to enjoy what bug fixes and enhancements we already get.
Re: AI issues, a few of use modders are already trying to get some of existing problems solved. Especially re: Rocket/MorphTank AI bugs and the idiotic spinning in circles that the Scout/Sentry/AttackTaskP AIs do, providing it doesnt open up a whole other can of worms.
When I speak of AI I refer to the only thing that the code refers to, the actions of the defined behaviours (I.E. rockettankai), those are hard coded and near impossible to enhance even in-code. Putting different AI's onto other ODF's does not change AI, it only causes the unit to follow another path of reasoning.
I understand that this is asking a lot of the programmers.
That is why I wanted feedback.
Thank you for making me aware...
I got the point.
Adam
Quote from: DarkFoxOM - we're getting onto the age-old debate of defining AI. If AI is making the computer act more like a human would (which I believe it is) then ZA's scout mods certainly make the scout act more like a human (weapon switching, dodging more erratically etc). I'd call that an AI improvement, even if it's not improved code. I fully understand where you're coming from though.
That's an excellent definition of 'good AI'. It's VERY easy to make an AI that points at the human and pulls the trigger. Even easier to make weapons that never miss.
Making it seem like there's a
human controlling the other ships is the whole point, not making it seem like
God is driving it... :)
As to the existance of 'improved AI' ships, by now everyone should know that I like options. The existence of any optional assets for the game is overall a good thing regardless of popularity or perceived usefulness by any one factor of the community. Someone will find a use of it along the lines of 'if you build it, they will come'...
The more pieces we have the richer the overall experience.
And WF needs to look up "beating a dead horse" in the slang dictionary...
And Mower, buddy, what's wrong? There was a beautiful, shiny chromed glistening chain just
hanging there, begging you to jerk it...
tsk, tsk, in the old days you would
never have let that slide by...
:)
-Av-
Heh heh heh Av... I'm trying to be a kinder, gentler, MowerMan.
WF has made himself somewhat of a target, but overall I think he is an OK guy. He is somewhat of a loudmouth, but somehow, I find that kind of endearing (ha ha ha, I wonder why?).
Note, game AI is not true AI per se. We have yet to achieve fully wrought self-thinking machines, although there have been some progress. "AI" in $40-$50 computer games just have enough code to create a pseudo-environment where bots simulate human movements. Consider commercial PC game AI as much closer to Artificial Instinct, rather than Artificial Intelligence.
Quote from: AvatarAnd WF needs to look up "beating a dead horse" in the slang dictionary...
lol Avatar you crack me up. How the hell do you say things like that and crack me up instead of making me want to kick your arse?
: p
QuoteAnd Mower, buddy, what's wrong? There was a beautiful, shiny chromed glistening chain just hanging there, begging you to jerk it...
What did I say? It's okay. I won't get mad. I just want to know where the chain was.
Adam
yeah, when you compare what the BEST human players do vs other humans is to try and think of what THEY will do, where they are aiming, when they will shoot, and simply not be there, ai jut uses the data availiable, which can only be based on the current data, unless it is very advanced, and then it can learn very slightly, but not a huge deal. When fighting a laser scout in another laser scout in a zst game, both people come to *very* close range and warp to left and right, trying to both dodge the other persons shot, while trying to hit the other warping bastard *lol*
while this seems simple, and doesnt requite even (sometimes) concious thought and realization, it requires so much ability and experience, your mind using certain pathways and making them more effecient (and less effecient when in disuse) this process is ery complex, but comes along so naturally, the true ability is to be random, or even different from the average player, so you will be better, force your opponent to think a moment more, while you blast away their ass with laser :o
hitting with laser is only knowing how to hit in warp
mostly, its for all weapons, but mostly to blast/laser like
the better you deal with warp the better killer you are, theres no such thing unwarping human - not in head to head, no metter what version what ping etc' etc'
humans head to head WARP
the more exprienced you are the better you will hit them while they are warping
As it took me an houre to write befor my computer crapshed over the submit button:
This is my vision,
It's a vison that's all,
My ideas,
Your insperation,
That's all I can say.
I can see it now, AI level *oo (infinity)!!! :twisted:
A map with 6 human recys, 2 computer.
EDF and Scion tanks,
Attacking side by side in a deadly pear.
Crossing paths,
The EDF drops a mits,
The scion a flare.
They spin around in unison,
The scion sonics its victum.
The EDF slams it o the mines.
...It doesn't survive.
A 6 human assalt on a computer base,
The atttack repelled, they retreat,
They are blasted on their flank by an ambush in wait.
Archers and bikes spew pops and acid,
sothing survives this deadly barrage.
Rocket tanks blasting the wasp,
Blasting the swarm,
Causing mass destruction,
Destroying all in its path.
THe attilas blast in the distance,
The mallers filter throught,
Nothing survives.
The enemy building,
In your very own base,
Stealing your ammo,
Your weapons,
Your repairs.
Scouts flying in,
A balle of bullets,
A balle of plasma,
Destruction everywhere,
Nothing survives.
It's almost like poetry to me.
I'm a poet,
I don't even know it!
PS: How does this sound?
Quote from: Nielk1I can see it now, AI level *oo (infinity)!!!
Well..as we all know I agree with this...
As for the rest of that...It all seems to be a poem...
How do I agree or disagree with that?
Is it a mod idea or what?
What is your suggestion?
Better AI? What are you trying to show us?
Be more Pacific :p
Adam
sounds like a dream that will never come true cause if you drop mits and flare at same spot the mits will burn and explode ;)
Well, yes.
I was refering to near the flare, not on.
I'll look into that for a weapon that spawnes both kinds of mines!!!
Quote from: Wingflier
Be more Pacific :p
I thought that word was "Specific"
You might want to fix your quote. I dont apreciate that!
This is mostly a dream. A computer this smart would infect the internet, government, and then manufacture its own war machines. I beleave it would be like Terminator 3.
Can you imagin if this happened. Wow, car factories being hacked and asembling, dare I say it?
FURIES!!!
well, if both mits and flare from same team's ai, then the mits wont die...
there was an fe map where there was an ai base and a small cerebi base :D
Quote from: Nielk1You might want to fix your quote. I dont apreciate that!
Relax its fixed
Quotewell, if both mits and flare from same team's ai, then the mits wont die...
hmmm im not sure, cause it'll be consider radious damage, like what mtr bikes do
gt splash is radius, i dun think taht hurts ai...
As long as the mits mine and flare mine are on the same team it works.
Back in the TsL days we use to mits/flare alot of bases.
If the miuts lands near a unit(suck as a turr) it activates and draws the flare's "flare" towards it.
Worked better then just normal flaring because they can't move the turr away from the flare. Mits locks them there.
We also did it in the field, mits a player then drop a flare near-by. The flare curls down into the mits mine, killing the player but not the mine.
Was fun for hit&runs while being able to go hit pools while they died