Sorry for the long'ish delay. I've been busy with more things that I can keep up with at the moment.
By popular demand, heres the freekin' enhanced scout for 1.3
www.bzuniverse.com/~zeroangel/misc_files/ivenhscout.odf
Just place it in your addon folder, and place it in the editor, and you will see how dangerous these can be in pairs.
I did some last minute tweaks (after several weeks of not touching the ODF) and i'm still not fully satisfied with my result. Some of the parameters have also been added in just for the sake of letting you know that they exist.
Enjoy.
(Avatar, that other topic didnt need to be locked. There was a lot of good discussion in there. I've seen threads which were nothing more then flame-fests, but that one wasnt. Now that info is going to be buried. )
Note that MorphTank and RocketTank AIs have slightly different fighting styles, but I didnt have time to re-study them to find the best combo. Feel free to use any of combination to suit your whims.
I re-read the other thread and noticed that some people want single AIs that can whoop their ass. They should note:
AI inaccuracy has been set to a reasonable level, but can be tweaked to be far better through the proper settings of: steerScatter, pitchScatter, alphaScale and omegaScale.
ZA u do some splendid work with bz2 ai odfs.
Some people want the AI to "kick their ass". My question is why? No matter what its still going to be predictable. Fun, but predictable. Am I wrong or what? Hows about some of you join some "strats" with vets(if they wanna humor you that is) and see how unpredictable a human is when fighting. THAT is the true form of BZ2 dogfighting.
But did I mention how great ZA is at making units fight spectacularly? :D
heh heh
Adam
Cheese and Rice!!
You made these not as good as possible?!
Lol ZA I love you!!
It is a freaking blast playing with those AI!
I owe you one dude!
This is hilarious.
I think the AI being hard freaking rocks.
This is just was BZ2 needs.
Thanks alot for all your hard work.
Adam
(I figured out how to get them to work...sorry about that *wasted* post.
Now if I could only get them in a mod :P)
Thanks again man.
:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:
What's a Five letter word for pain?
ARRRG
Deleted becuase I didn't read an above post carefully enough.
Edited Again,
Hey ZA if a human was to pilot one of these things, would it be like a normal scout, or would it be hyper?
And no I'm sorry I havn't had time to download these files yet. My bz2 comp is haven problems.
I bet that scout freakin owned you
anyways, if it was in a strat and you were on my team, I'd keep it AI for sure
Quote from: Phoenixanyways, if it was in a strat and you were on my team, I'd keep it AI for sure
Are you talking to me Phoenix Flame?
I hope not...
lol this is funny, I hear a war coming on...
I owned those scouts 1v1 Phoenix...
It was only when it was 3v1 when they basically raped me.
...and even if they could rape me 1v1...what about extractor killing? Do you really have time to tell all your AI scouts to destroy the enemy extractors while trying to build and defend your base? Can your AI scouts plant scavengers while you are busy building your base? What if I decide to mortar your AI scouts while they are defending something? Will they come and attack me? I think not.
It would be foolish to let the AI keep those scouts because even with ZA's current .odfs humans are still superior...
By the way...
Has anybody else noted that when you first fire upon enemy ships (hover ones only, but of all types)...that they seem to retreat, do a 360* turn, and only after that come back to attack you?
Is this a pathfinding issue?
Adam
Quotewhat about extractor killing? Do you really have time to tell all your AI scouts to destroy the enemy extractors while trying to build and defend your base? Can your AI scouts plant scavengers while you are busy building your base? What if I decide to mortar your AI scouts while they are defending something? Will they come and attack me? I think not.
what about it?
yes
no, but I rarly give scavs to thugs anyway
lol, most people aint even smart to relize that anyways, so ya - the AI will act better
think again
QuoteIt would be foolish to let the AI keep those scouts because even with ZA's current .odfs humans are still superior
nah, those scouts do better then alot of people ive seen play
overall - yes, humans are superior - but not many
how hard is it to plant a scav and destroy extractors without being told to?
well, quite hard for idots who just want to fight against the odds
wing, seriously, put more thinking before you post
I, as the commander want loose scarp, and I already got 3 pools, I dont wanna deploy 4th pool cause I wanna keep it for loose, while giving it to someone else I cant control it
or a difrent situation, I got tons of scarp and I realy dont need any loose - I just want the pool to be capped (harder for them to kill)
I like to control my scavs and I dont like giving them to other people unless I can tell them EXACTLY (need ventrilo for that) what I want with the scav or I just dont care and 2 far to do it myself
and as spawn said, some people will just go to kill etc'
I'll give the scouts a try shortly. Zero Angel, if you can modify the units for both races, a new recycler variant could be added that uses your enhanced ai. I have one question though. Do your tweaks affect the ship's handling characteristics or only the ai?
My tweaks do not touch any aspect of the ship, except for what happens when an AI is piloting it.
A human-piloted ivenhscout is exactly the same as a human-piloted ivscout, there is no difference.
Commando, Re: me tuning all AIs for a new recy variant. I can do this, however I'm not exactly comfortable with some of the 'hacks' I am using right now, especially when it comes to iv/fvtanks and weapons switching.
If I allow an ivTank to fire his cannons and guns at the same time, this creates odd situations with some weapon combos where the tank will fire weapon types that humans would NEVER switch since the delay is so low. One example is chainguns and sp-stabs. The AI tank would be able to fire both at once, so would be more effective then a human at killing buildings, because the sp-stabs fire delay is so low that a human would never be able to cycle efficiently between that and chains.
To me, that is a disturbing hack. Yet if I set the tank up to ONLY fire its cannon, then it will have the same stupid behavior that its always had (ie: blast vs. extractors). One thing I can do is give the tank its normal AI (or one that uses normal weapon choosing logic) and set the mortar hardpoints to assault. Therefore the Tank would be able to mortar GTs and Asstanks, while using its cannon on combat craft. This has another drawback, it doesnt fit into the BZ2 weapon system. Sure we can make duplicate versions of all mortars so that normal mortars can fit on an assault hardpoint, but a problem would appear should another MOD choose to use the assault/mortar hardpoint for some special weapon like bombs.
Someone said that they would ask Ken to implement combatWMask and assaultWMask vars, I hope they are still up to that task.
Quotebecause the sp-stabs fire delay is so low that a human would never be able to cycle efficiently between that and chains.
I may not be able to do it as well as your scouts, but I feel I must inform you that I often cycle SP/chain. Hell, I cycle SP/chain/mortar when I'm hitting a pool. I even switch iongun/plasma cannon in a warrior. It's nothing completely extraordinary.
Quote from: DarkFoxI may not be able to do it as well as your scouts, but I feel I must inform you that I often cycle SP/chain. Hell, I cycle SP/chain/mortar when I'm hitting a pool. I even switch iongun/plasma cannon in a warrior. It's nothing completely extraordinary.
Shut up!
You have to be kidding. How the heck could you do that effectively?
Do explain : )
lol, hes just that good. :D
well, i believe that the advantages of ai ship killing a pool at hyper speeds would be weighed down by their using weapons ineffectively (bad ammo), aka blast on pools, but this could also be abused, like making a tank with sp pummel JUST for pools, or worse, for recyc rushes. Either way, if you want i would be happy to help you test these ships.
Quote from: WingflierQuote from: DarkFoxI may not be able to do it as well as your scouts, but I feel I must inform you that I often cycle SP/chain. Hell, I cycle SP/chain/mortar when I'm hitting a pool. I even switch iongun/plasma cannon in a warrior. It's nothing completely extraordinary.
Shut up!
You have to be kidding. How the heck could you do that effectively?
Do explain : )
I'm guessing he uses his scroll wheel. He swiches from SP to mortar then to chain then to SP-Chain-SP-Chain-SP-chain.......ect for 2 seconds when the process gets repeted.
Wingflier: the 'nextweapon' command, as many people know, can only be clicked so fast. Same goes for the 'previousweapon' command. However, by using both 'nextweapon' AND 'previousweapon' (I have right mouse as nextweapon, and Q as previousweapon) you can switch as quickly as you like, no missing a single shot of minigun fire as you fire out FAF missiles, for example.
In the example of chain/SP/mortar I have chain armed, hold down fire, then hit rightmouse -> q -> q -> rightmouse -> q -> rightmouse -> q ->rightmouse etc. Every five SP shots I fire a mortar, and keep firing chain non-stop.
This is why I don't like MDM, the pool-hitting ability of a tank is pathetic with MDM, and this game is 90% economy, meaning I consider being able to hit pools quickly as more important than finishing a base quickly.
It's worth noting that using a left-handed key for previousweapon opens up a world of possibilities, particularly in FE, but in 1.2/ZST to some extent as well. tanks with plasma/chain/mortar, for example, can hit a pool quicker than a tank with SP/laser, are available at the same point in the tech tree, and have a longer-range, more effective anti-scout weapon, not to mention a chaingun which we all know is great against tanks. They eat ammo quickly, which means they're only a good choice on tiny maps, but still... Anyone who's played a game against my beloved scions will know how much I use EMP lockdown, which when used with a previousweapon key can be an *EVIL* weapon, but is nearly useless without. Tag/laser scouts are another one I like, since it's a laser scout that's capable of hitting pools as quickly as a minigun scout, although it hardly warrants it's price tag.
Darkfox...
You're a badass
: )
I would get so confused if I tried switching weapons that fast.
For the most part I stick with 1 wep at a time :P
:? :? :?
Adam
pure gold post there DF , like preaty much always
lots of things to argue about there though
Quotetanks with plasma/chain/mortar, for example, can hit a pool quicker than a tank with SP/laser, are available at the same point in the tech tree, and have a longer-range, more effective anti-scout weapon, not to mention a chaingun which we all know is great against tanks. They eat ammo quickly, which means they're only a good choice on tiny maps,
I still dislike plasma/chain/mortar tanks and let me add few more points
firstly, plasma/chain/mortar tank has far lesser chance to survive vs a chain scout, let alone a bunch of them
another benfit SP tank gets is the ammo like you mentioned - making it a much more useful pool killer in the long run + the ability to MDM guntowers and constructors
QuoteTag/laser scouts are another one I like, since it's a laser scout that's capable of hitting pools as quickly as a minigun scout, although it hardly warrants it's price tag.
A config I'll never ever use
if you do get a laser scout its for simply killing another scouts, not to hit pools, so there is no point making the laser scout equel to mini scout and wasting all his ammo on a pool, if I am builing a full with only a service bay I would go for faf, since its a better scout killer - which is probably the pourpose you built a laser ship anyways
and if you already have an armory, shadowers
Quote from: PhoeniX-FlamEwing, seriously, put more thinking before you post
I, as the commander want loose scarp, and I already got 3 pools, I dont wanna deploy 4th pool cause I wanna keep it for loose, while giving it to someone else I cant control it
or a difrent situation, I got tons of scarp and I realy dont need any loose - I just want the pool to be capped (harder for them to kill)
I like to control my scavs and I dont like giving them to other people unless I can tell them EXACTLY (need ventrilo for that) what I want with the scav or I just dont care and 2 far to do it myself
and as spawn said, some people will just go to kill etc'
What does this have to do with not giving your AI controlled ships to humans??
My point is that with ZA's current .odfs, humans are still better dogfighters...not to mention extractor killers, base killers, team workers, etc. etc.
Maybe you need to think before
you post.
Explain why you would not give one of ZAs ships to a human player?
Cuz that does not make much logical since to me.
Quote from: WingflierQuote from: PhoeniX-FlamEwing, seriously, put more thinking before you post
I, as the commander want loose scarp, and I already got 3 pools, I dont wanna deploy 4th pool cause I wanna keep it for loose, while giving it to someone else I cant control it
or a difrent situation, I got tons of scarp and I realy dont need any loose - I just want the pool to be capped (harder for them to kill)
I like to control my scavs and I dont like giving them to other people unless I can tell them EXACTLY (need ventrilo for that) what I want with the scav or I just dont care and 2 far to do it myself
and as spawn said, some people will just go to kill etc'
What does this have to do with not giving your AI controlled ships to humans??
My point is that with ZA's current .odfs, humans are still better dogfighters...not to mention extractor killers, base killers, team workers, etc. etc.
Maybe you need to think before you post.
Explain why you would not give one of ZAs ships to a human player?
Cuz that does not make much logical since to me.
then read what I posted again, since it has my reason of keeping the scav --> I dont need a human to plant scavs and I prefer keeping them, you said I should give them to a human
with those scouts, or any other AI - I can use to my advantge, since I know exactly how they will work and exactly what benfit I get from them and what their weak points are
you, as a [no offense ment here] less exprienced player - I cant control exactly, even if I do give you orders you can fail me and I have no idea what to expect from you. I can use the AI exactly to my liking, and since theres not much things you can do better then ZA's scout I'll keep it AI
on a side note: in 1.2, where I'm stuck with new players I'd rather be alone and build a turret instead of their ships, because the turrets are probably more useful
p.s scout automaticly paint targets
most humans dont
pf is saying that he would rather have the ai scout because it would do what its told and be a BETTER fighter than most humans. he doesnt need any help killing pools or dog fighting in the game, once he gets laser, your dead. he has mastered the game, and you will never be able to beat him. i have beaten him, but it was a 3v1 (me and 2 intermed) and i just maulered his recyc *lol*
the thing about some peopl is that they will not only ALWAYS fight and die, but that they will die in enemy territory, and give the enemy scrap. the ai scout wont do this normally.
only because you had a hidden pool somewhere :-( ;)
gj though :p
Quotehe has mastered the game, and you will never be able to beat him.
Hmm...maybe not in 1.2.
But never say never. :p
Anywho...
I just find it hard to believe that if you had a hardcore vet such as {bac}Opp or Spawn that you would literally let the AI keep their scout/tank etc.
I mean even if the AI were somewhat better than ZA's current, those two players could do some damage. (Unfortunately I found it out the hard way.)
Do you mean you would not give the AI ships to
most players or all players?
Toodles
: )
Thats funny how ppl say they will pick an AI scout over a human. Maybe AI will do a good job now of playing support to a human thug, but they are certainly not good enough to choose over a human. Theres a lot of little attack/defense techniques that make a world of difference, that simply cannot be configured into the AI via handling params and aiNames.
One example is fast running away (or any effective form of running away or pursuit), another is that the AI does not know when to disengage the enemy, and another is that the AI does not know when to run for pods. You have to hold his hand through every step.
Like DF says, most of the game is about economy, commanders worry a lot already about their thugs losing ships because it sets them back from building the next tech. AI would hardly be different, but maybe it would be worthwhile in a 1v1 or 2v2 strat or fun in an MPI.
Quote from: Zero AngelThats funny how ppl say they will pick an AI scout over a human. Maybe AI will do a good job now of playing support to a human thug, but they are certainly not good enough to choose over a human. Theres a lot of little attack/defense techniques that make a world of difference, that simply cannot be configured into the AI via handling params and aiNames.
Well put ZA. I agree.
Adam
most, not all
ZA, you should know me and know exactly what I'm talking about
sure, overall in the end of the day people
are better then your scouts, not defently not all of them
QuoteOne example is fast running away (or any effective form of running away or pursuit), another is that the AI does not know when to disengage the enemy, and another is that the AI does not know when to run for pods. You have to hold his hand through every step.
true, but consider its a scout it paints whatever comes near it, it not THAT bad by itself + you need to hold some humans hands as well, and some of them dont even listen
QuoteLike DF says, most of the game is about economy, commanders worry a lot already about their thugs losing ships because it sets them back from building the next tech. AI would hardly be different, but maybe it would be worthwhile in a 1v1 or 2v2 strat or fun in an MPI.
exactly! but when you build an AI you know it aint gonna last long and you build something that will be useful to you at the current time (e.g turrets, ass tanks, rckt tanks etc' etc')
with humans, you either build them a ship cause you preaty much "have to" (you cant let them sit there all day can you?)
or cause your praying they will somewhat be useful
Just a note PF - I did say 'possibilities', not 'best choices'. Plasma, for example, is only a good choice in FE, and even then it's normally better just to skip tanks until blast (having said that, blast/chain/mortar is far better to a good weapon cycler than blast/laser/mdm). The tag/laser scout is only worth thinking about in 1v1 (or 1v2, 1v3, whatever).
Why are we even talking about this to each other though? We know this man, we're the guys that had almost *exactly* the same kills on each other's playerships when I did the stats pages! I know you know, you know I know. :)
QuoteTrue, but consider its a scout it paints whatever comes near it, it not THAT bad by itself + you need to hold some humans hands as well, and some of them dont even listen
The scout loses that ability when its given a half-decent AI. (ie: auto-painting is a feature of the ScoutFriend/ScoutEnemy AI). Therefore, my scout will not auto paint things because it uses a different AI.
I spent a lot of time working with the scout AI to see if I could keep it, but the scout AI is *so* idiotic (spins in circles when its under a steady stream of fire) that I figured the benefits of having a decent AI was better then the benefits of having auto-painting.
this knowledge is pure gold! and I just love a good conversion about all the weapons, wether if both sides know it it and both agree, its just great!
and besides, I dont think it hurts other people to read & learn :)
Damn...
I don't learn
:(
In 1.3 almost all units hilight enemies now on radar. Its only scouts that auto paint.
Quote from: PhoeniX-FlamEonly because you had a hidden pool somewhere :-( ;)
gj though :p
heh, yeah. I only found 4 pools that game, but you didnt find one of them, so its all good. Fighting you is really annoying btw, you know how hard it is to build on one pool :lol:
it was a great game though, when i still remembered how to command well, now i have no idea at all :D
Quote from: WingflierDamn...
I don't learn
:(
Aha! I knew we were missing a peice of the puzzle... :-D
Quote...decent AI was better then the benefits of having auto-painting...
:s
I think the whole point of having ZA' Scout is that it's a better Scout than the old one for dogfighting.
We're not tied to just one type of Scout any more. We can have multiple ones in one section of the build tree. One specializing in dogfighting, the other for, well, scouting.
Well done, ZA. Ever think about adding it to the new patch for use by the AIP's or as wingmen for humans? Just because it's in the pak, doesn't mean it's automatically in the game, but would be readily available for modders and AIP creators.
I just love having things being painted for me, heh....really helps against those sneaky bombers 8D.
BTW, can a relay bunker still function as a relay bunker even if it paints things? I think there was once a mod for a rather tall tower that apparently could do both.
also, what happens if tracked units...hmm..lets say the hadean atlas...have the ai that lets them paint things.
that ai doesnt work with treaded uinits...