Hi guys! There are now 5 levels of difficulty (ranging from "easy" to "insane") + stock 1.3 AIPs. Thanks to GSH for fixing many, many AIP-related bugs.
Watch as the AI uses the bomber like it's going out of style, or play "count the Maulers" as they ravage your base.
Yes, the AI does scrap cheat on the harder difficulty levels, but it should be "smarter" than before. Oh well, that's what you get without DLL magic. :roll:
Cheers! Yeehaw!
in EXTRA OPTIONS i see HUMAN RECYCLER with IA: Stock repair units and IA: EMPTIES + AUTOMATIC REPAIR and AI: EMPTIES + STOCK REPAIR UNIT. what is this?
You can change what recycler you use in IA like you can in mpi.
is there a way to play against CPU AI in multiplayer maps? what i mean is Me against CPU AI in multiplayer map. i recall Route66 mod allowed you to do such a thing. it was the most hectic gameplay ive experienced. there are many multiplyaer maps and few IAction maps.
You could copy the maps from addon/missions/multiplayer to addon/missions/instant though it might give you a duplicate assets error after.
Yes, it's called MPI, use these maps to play against ai. And G66 isn't a mod, it's a mappack.
It is a mod, just like ZST is, only it is completely compatiable with standard gameplay.
It might be that im just a bit soft or something, but I suspect the ai scrap cheat may need turning down just a little bit on the first mpi aip.
Playing alone on the default aip option, the player is very quickly faced with a "Unending convoy" of assault tanks, rocket tanks or whatever, that take down GT's faster than they can be built.
Eh? The stock 1.3 AIPs doesn't use scrap cheat, if that's what you mean. It's the same as was in 1.3 PB2. The bug fixes probably makes it work better, but nothing has really changed.
Only the hardest 3 AIP sets use scrap cheat, and were intended for multiple players vs. the AI.
Better get in more practice, methinks. :wink:
Do these levels of difficulty affect the AIPs skill and aggressivity i.e. a Sabre in Default level is less skilled or aggressive than in Extreme setting?
AIPs don't affect ai intellenge on the unit level. AIPs only determine what the ai builds. I don't believe you can specify the ai skill level in AI, only MPI do you have control over those settings.
What about the, sometimes huge, skill difference between my AI units and Computer AI units ( always talking of Instant Action)? Now, with 1.3 my units act like "sleeping beauties" and react only when is too late. Set a tank to guard an Extractor and you will notice it immediately.
Even when I order direct attack my units are easily ripped to pieces from equivalent Computer AI in one-to-one combat :-(.
Quote from: llulla on August 30, 2006, 03:59:02 PM
Set a tank to guard an Extractor and you will notice it immediately.
I noticed that the other day, it's very good, I like that :)
What exactly did you like Raven? I was saying that your Scav maybe half blown away while the guarding unit awakes to to take some action... . That is somehow weird behavior.
Really? I told some scouts to defend an extractor (literally selected them and pointed to the ext and pressed space) and they attacked anything in sight/radar range/engage range thingy without fail. How wierd is that? Though it was g66... The friendly AI skill level was set on max, thats probably what did it.
If that is the case then maybe someone should check that out...Use some of that AI code in 1.3?
I don't *do* AI so I can't say I know what I'm talking about :)
Turrets are generally smarter, or you can try telling your units to "hold", they will attack the nearest target on radar.
I haven't tried scouts, but Sabre-Warriors are pitiful when told to guard. They engage only after being hit, mostly. I am sure of this because, I always loose extractors to Maulers even with 3-4 Sabres around. Anyway, I will try to do some accurate eval of the distance of engagement under the circumstances.
3-4 sabres don't stand a chance against a squad of 2-3 maulers anyway, unless they are human that is
Yeah, you'll need at least 2 Sabres per Mauler, AI vs. AI. It's not the Sabre's inability to react quickly, it's just that Mauler usually come up to its target at full speed. So the Sabre probably gets off one or two hits before the Mauler is on top of it.
But man, Maulers are so much fun to dogfight. :wink:
Hell yeah, alot harder now they have 360o turrets, lil sods :P
They can damage a rocket tank with one fang substantially, yet alone a docile sabre.
Well, it depends if tank is upgraded and how you use it. Upgraded Sabres with SP--STAB eat Maulers for breakfast at the ratio 3 tanks - 2 maulers IF you have ordered them to attack ( the "no mercy" line is really killing :-D).
The same is not true when on guard duty. The question is, why there is no reaction as soon as an enemy unit crosses the radar boundary? Is there any params that can be fiddled with in order to alter that?
I always get mixed up with what the "engageRange =" line actually does, it sounds like something along these lines.
Is there any chance to change the behaviour of 1.3 AIs back to 1.2 default by copying 1.2 ODFs? Is it possible or it is trouble?
Why would you want the ai to act like something you've beaten a thousand times? Also guarding a extractor with sabres isn't the way to go, with so many maulers/assault tanks coming rocket tanks with hornet are better. Just don't move them there one at a time. heehee
Maybe try changing some of the server options and setting the AIP to "Easy".
Hey, it can't be that hard... it's just the stock MPI, not G66. :-o
Quote from: llulla on September 06, 2006, 03:59:29 PM
Is there any chance to change the behaviour of 1.3 AIs back to 1.2 default by copying 1.2 ODFs? Is it possible or it is trouble?
Trouble.
Like this we shift to tactical talks instead of what is important, the technical talk of how to make " sleeping beauty" more aggressive. It used to be difficult to hold tanks not to react to everything that crossed their radar. This had its tactical drawbacks also, but I prefer that and I am asking if we could get it back.
Mind you, I DO NOT mean that ALL AI be back at 1.2 behavior, only the tank class if possible.
If we go talking TACTICS, you don't want to use heavy but slow units to defend Extractors far away across the map, especially where the enemy is closer. There is no time to substitute the lost units and the scrap cost is very high since you will loose continuously some. Tanks are fast and furious, and, if upgraded, powerful enough to erase EVERYTHING, providing the right number (6+). For me Sabre is the best of the best if we don't include the MODs into comparison.
That's what chain rats are for. Mix them with hornet RT's and the maulers die quite nicely. ;)
I liked the way the turrets moved in BZ1, the leaning and their speed, so I made mine like that.
Hornet upgraded RTs work well in maps with some big flat space. Locking onto target needs some time, minimal though, that lessens a lot the effectivness if maulers rush from a short distance. Personally, I find 1.3 Salvo devastating and the best solution at short range.
Have anyone noticed the disappearance of the Arches from radar when land in vertical or so surfaces? My AIs, standing only 2m close, react only when directly engaged but will let the Archer otherwise bomb freely. I noticed that I don't see them from the Relay Bunker but when I go to inspect visually they are normally visible???????
You can't detect or visually see units or buildings (hostile) that are outside of your radar range in a relay (I think thats it) And you still in that relay bunker all the time? :P
As for the disapearance off radar, you sure its not so high that it's outside your range? Otherwise it's either a bug or something that I dont "do" :lol:
In 1.2 you couldn't get a visual on any units outside the bunker's detect range unless it was near another building of yours, vehicles only made units a red box so you could see that something was there, just not what and couldn't tell things to attack. In 1.3 units give the same "view" as buildings, but archers and turrets go invisible on radar when they land/deploy, so your units need line of sight to go after them or an attack command.
And in dogfights sabres are destroyed by warriors given a smart scion commander, but is a good general unit, but given it's upgraded cost being the same as a stock rocket tank, those would be MUCH better for defending, especially against scions.
That is not what I meant, about the visibility. It is obvious that from Command Bunker you can't see everything-yes I prefer to play from Bunker. It is like playing chess with the computer but, of course, I mix myself in action especially when I attack the bases mostly on an modified Attila.
I was saying that I can send AI units, including RTs, to a nav from where Archers are bombing me. The units go there, almost in contact with the Archers, and don't SEE them. The archers keep bombing in the presence of my AIs and, get destroyed ONLY when they engage the unit itself. If they keep bombing some other target instead of the AI units I send very, very close, no harm will come to the Archer??????? I keep standby units only for rapid intervention in areas of the map where my situation gets critical but, they are useless for getting rid of already deployed Archers :x.
To continue on RT+Hornet score, I tried it when playing the IA map FORTRESS included with 1.3 (a difficult one). I set RTs to guard two rather long lanes that lead to the Scion base inside the Fortres. Some were stock with Salwo and some modified with Hornet. To my surprise they reacted at exactly the same distance to attacking Maulers. At this point of the map the Maulers are in staright line of sight from a long distance, but RTs+Hornet did not take advantage of their range. They reacted at approximately the same distance as Salvo RTs?????
Hornet needs time to lock onto a mauler, which could be the problem there. Did you try sendign a full scout after the archers? If a scout is near an enemy it will paint whatever is nearest, and if that is the archer then it would become highlighted on the radar and your screen for you to send units to attack. Did you try telling the unit to hold when they are near the archer? That could help, but they would still need line of sight, though the easiest way is probablly yourself in a scout and fill one with chain :P
Archers have a very high heat signature, but a very low image signature and no radar signature, so the Hornet should lock on pretty quick, but not a Shadower or Popper and shouldn't show up on radar at all.
How close do you get the RT's to the Archers? Maybe they can't angle down to them very well. The Archer's com point is kinda low, so maybe when they deploy, their Com points sink down a bit so the terrain hide's it.
unitName = "Archer"
aiName = "AttachOffensive"
aiName2 = "AttachOffensive"
heatSignature = 10.0
imageSignature = 0.1
radarSignature = 0.0
isAssault = 1
I don't think poper locks on so it wouldn't be affected by radar, but a missile like comet cruise would be.
Popper doesn't really lock on like a missile does.. As long as you have something (T)argeted, the first stage of the Popper will fire a projectile directly at where the target will be if it continues moving at the same speed in the same direction. Basically, it aims directly at the (T)arget (L)ead (I)ndicator and does not turn toward it's target at all.
What is the difference between the levels <Default 1.3 Set> and <Standard 1.3 v3.3 set>, probably I didn't write it exactly. I have been playing with the "Standard..." thing and at moment looks like it is cheating but, on other occasions is perfectly honest!!!!
Returning to the Archer anomaly.
The last two days (nights more precisely :-D) I have been playing High&Low map and because, of the anomaly they have given me a headache. My AI units were attacking any flying archer but not the deployed ones. In this map the archers prefer the vertical wall that connets high and low planes. Once deployed start bombing my units on the high plane near the Extractor closest to ISDF base. I decided to see it myself and hopped on my Scout ordering two Sabres to follow. I went at the base of the middle wall and ordered Sabres to a position so close to the Archers that their cannons were almost touching them. Of course, Archers were perfectly visible and I, or my AIs, could burn them any time but I was experimenting the behavior. Archers went on to scrap every unit I had on the higher plane and the Sabres were hypnotized. Only when the Archer cleaned all units other and decided to target on us died almost instantly.
I tried the same with RTs and Assault tanks and the latter behaves a little better but, generally, the problem persists. Unless you specifically order your AI unit to kill the Archer it will not do it like it does with any other Scion units. :x
Can someone see this thing more deep?? :cry:
Default 1.3 is the original AIP set written way back when (by GSH? GreenHeart? Red Devil?). It's the original and probably most compatible, but it's a bit glitchy and not very fine-tuned, IMHO. Standard and the others are written by me. The AI does not cheat in Standard in any way; it should be a bit more efficient and a tougher opponent than Default 1.3.
As for the Archers, maybe the problem is that after a certain elevation, the AI considers them to be "flying", and so won't target them unless the AI has code to deal with it (like the rocket tank)?
Except for making one small fix to one of them I didn't do any of the stock AIP's.
I still think Natty's G66 AI and bases are the best/hardest ones I've seen. Greenheart's AI and bases are really good ones too (especially Firestorm).
Here's a shot of what I did when messing about on my own with a stock one (HighLow):
(http://www.uploadfile.info/uploads/9f10df3046.jpg)
It should be as wug says. I only noticed (maybe it is my wrong impression) a slight disbalance in CPUs unit production.
While playing Chill in Hard mode and Std. set I set up minimal base that gave me only Sabres and attacked immediately all extractors or biometal wells in the middle or close to Scion base. Doing so I managed to keep off the scion domination 5 out of 7 biometal pools, sometimes simply destroying the scavs that wanted to deploy. This from the start of the game and not as a return and recapture of the pools. Like this CPU had only 2 pools more or less under continuous control.
YET, I got hit with a continuous stream of Maulers, too many!!!!. This made me think of cheat but probably is simply a faster rate of production or I have all my calculations wrong. Two upgraded Extractors 20s and 30x2 = 60s Recycler time it is at best 80s per Mauler. If you count the continuous build of Scavs that I destroy regularly, it should be like 1 Mauler in 2 minutes.
That continues unless I take the 6th pool at the SW corner of the map and CPU switches to Archers and Warriors.
Ah yes, the AI's recycler does regain scrap faster than the player's does. This would account for the difference. But this has always been the case for as far back as I can remember, and not something controlled by AIPs.
The AI also gets other slight advantages, like certain weapon upgrades for free and base defenses at the start, but these advantages don't really amount to much versus a human player.
Besides, a human player almost always ends up collecting more scrap, since the AI will "deposit" scrap right next to the player's gun towers. :lol:
Not hard to guess what my favourite unit is. :-D Tactically, the Mauler has the best set of attributes - it is one of the fastest units (takes about half as long to mount an attack vs. other assault units), it has a massively powerful weapon (if it can get close enough), it is the most fun to dogfight (IMHO), and it's not snipeable.
If the AI advantages really bother you, try "Easy", where the AI is intentionally crippled.
You're kidding wug? I am trying to play the chating levels beacuse that is real fun. Unfortunately it makes you tear your hair off (if having left any :lol:) but sometimes I manage to survive with the Difficult set ... only for a while:-D. Thanks for explaining because was only curious, but HARD is the name of the game.
I played almost all stock 1.3 maps and I played a lot of maps from 1.2 that do not use all the new things introduced by 1.3 Now my first impression is almost a certainty: the AI units of 1.3 are MUCH LESS RESPONSIVE than before.
This is not about Sabres and Maulres. Sentries and Warriors will pass RT lines and these wake up ONLY after they have gone through. Turrets fare a little better but still will engage a Scout only when it is under the nose. Repair Trucks stay with the back to the crumbling GTs only a few feet away and so on. I will try to Capture the funny situations where a Sabre sleeps on duty ( or is having a drink) while some metres away a RT is taking the spit from a Mauler :-D.
It doesen't hurt much to have lazy units because it give some more advantages to CPU controlled AIs, making the play more rough. It makes me a little confused if for example I do some F.E. play(Hadean fan) and than jump to 1.3 maps to round up the evening :-o.
Hmmm... interesting. Wonder what is causing the delay in response? Need one of the gurus to answer that question. :|
Do you tell the RT's to "Hold" after they get in position or do you just tell them to go to a position?
The scenarios I mentioned are generally not in HOLD state. Holding improves the situation but still the engaging distance is too short. for example, RTs + Hornet result in very little or no advantage :x. Hold has no meaning with Sabres because their advantage is in the mobility. Holding them = loosing them.
I played Chill1.2 vs Chill1.3 and watched the defense from Archers that land on high ground ( like two towers) in front of the base. I a couple of Hornet RTs at the very edge of ISDF base, at the vertical wall.
In 1.2, most of the time (when there is no disturbance from closer units), RTs engage Archers as soon as they start descending inside the Hornet range 8-). In 1.3 it is sad to see the RTs being bombed from the Archers in front of them and then decide to fire. Sometimes I have to even order them :-(!!!!!
The behaviour is inherent to the whole system so, as wug says, I think it is programmers ground.