It is not possible to order any AIs that are in visual contact with the targets if there are jammers around. This even if you are sitting under the target itself you can't tell your units to take it out.
Is this intentional or a BUG??? It makes impossible the attack on scion bases.
Scion jammers mess up the tracking systems of all enemy units in the area. I assume that includes visual since you highlighting the enemy and trying to order a unit to attack is tranmitting a coordinate signal to your other units. The only good strategy I know is to just get enough units and try to rush them in. They distract the enemy units while I hunt down Jammers. :)
Long time ago, I complained about Jammers too, until I saw the light. ;) It's not a bug AFAIK. Without Jammers, I don't think the Scion stand a chance against the ISDF.
I can think of two ways to beat Scion AI - one, go with lucky_foot's strategy, then call in the bomber once the Jammers are toast. Two, gain control of the map, choke off its supply of scrap, then strip the Scion base slowly piece-by-piece. Once the AI is down to one scrap pool, you should be in complete control.
FYI, the AI player isn't affected by Jammers, so if you play Scion vs. ISDF AI, attack the Bombay Bay ASAP. 8-)
Quote from: wug on September 15, 2006, 03:14:04 PMWithout Jammers, I don't think the Scion stand a chance against the ISDF.
In MPI, Scions are infererior to the ISDF, as they rely very heavily on human controlled tricks and tactics that cannot be easily done through AIPs or DLLs.
In a strategy game however, once the Scions get the Stronghold all the ISDF can do is hold on and try to cut off the Scion's scrap supply. If they fail that, then they are in for a slow, agonizing, unstopable defeat.
Why? Because Scions have Blink. A ship with Blink is nearly impossible to defeat. The only way you can kill a Blinking ship is to have something with Shadower missile attacking it, or if the Scion ship doesn't have enough ammo to Blink away.
EDIT: Typo.
Just have a scout paint the gun spires, bomb them, then send a fleet in...
Of course if you don't watch what your doing and have no ammo left to blink out your toast...And AI can't use blink right can it? So yeah...
QuoteAnd AI can't use blink right can it?
Ai can use blink if the ships and blink device are suitably modified, The AI uses it without intelligence of course and can end up loitering at the edge of the map... But they are fun to fight :-D
It can be bloody annoying in waterworld :P
Big Scion bases with "indoor"scrap pools are impossible to crack. Fortress is an example where 4 pools are in base area.
I tried once sending in a huge mix of Attilas, Assaults and Sabres and the result was: all toasted. Attacked myself the jammer but scion builder replaces it immediately ( myself KIA :-o).
I think, there should have been granted a certain distance, inside enemy fire range, that you could order visually, otherwise maps like the one I mentioned are destined to a stall situation.
Wait, are you comnplaining that the AI is tactful?
Dude just get out of your relay and use some skill to infiltrate the base and get inside the forge of something, or mortar it from a distance in a sabre or mortarbike, it's pratically impossible to win with the only human player inside a bunker becasue AI cannot behave like a human. It can't think "oh hey, a jammers there, maybe we should just mortar it before going in." Personally I can't see what fun you could have with just sitting there telling units to do this... But thats you, and you will lose as long as you keep doing it, unless you have the AI on stupidly low levels.
No base is impossible to crack....it's just the amount of time it takes to get through. I fought an Instant Action on Wug's Insane Level and it took me a good 2 weeks before I finally could launch attacks against their base.
I consider myself adequate in base commanding, but the amount of Gun towers I had to keep up to keep the Titans and Maulers at bay was ridiculious.
Plus, I assisted Wug in creating a better defense for the Scions. ;) I suggested more jammers. :D
I didn't say it was impossible normally, I meant that its pretty impossible to do it if you just live in a relay bunker and rely on your AI to do the jobs that only a human player can do.
There are more options than all that. llulla mentioned that once the jammer was down, they built it right back. But if you knock out the jammers in their base and give a target to all of the other players, then demand for you to be given back that target from them. Even if the ai builds back the jammers, you will still have that target(if someone gives it back to you). Which is why most of you that join me notice I like to ask for the target I gave you, to be given back to me. Then bomb them only if they have no rocket towers. If they do have rocket towers, then the game must be a long one and involve you taking all pools and cutting them down as wug suggested.
Another way to take out their base is to be in a rocket tank with hornet.Hornet rockets don't need a target to be given to lock onto things. Have a bunch of other rocket tanks spread out around you with hornet, and a bunch of missle scouts just follow you. They will defend you successfully against the inevitable mauler rush as long as you take time to tell the missle scouts what to target. If you inch your rocket tanks forward, it is possible to make an attack on un-targeted items. But bare in mind the targets will be the closest to your advancing ships. This advance is similiar to wugs, but doesn't involve knocking all their pools out.
As pointed out, Scouts CAN paint units inside jammer fields. My only complaint is that Scouts should try and paint the jammer. Since the jammer is the source of the 'jamming field', scouts should be able to pick it out. But aside from that, simply letting the scout paint a spire and sending in an attack wave to distract while your bomber comes in for the kill.
Absolutley no AI enemy can create a stall situation. If you're fighting the AI and you get a foothold, you're gonna win. It's quite impossible to make an AI managed impenetrable base. As for units to use against jammed bases, SP-Sabres and Hornet Hellcats are your friends. If you're scion, pretty much anything. Sonic, or Arc warriors, Sonic Titans, Maulers, Lancers, Archers...
Actually, there is only one way it can happen, that's with a bunker jockeyâ,,¢. It's very rare but, it does happen.
Well, a couple of friends and I just went through a 3 hour grudge match - ISDF vs. Scion AI on Dunes. We finally broke through after about ah... 15 or so tries?
We were just not well coordinated, but the base defense was pretty tough.
Time for bed... zzz....
LOL.. Bunker Jockey.. :-D
:-D
The bunker can be very useful, especially when your playing zst and your too lazy to fly around in a ship :D
With "stall"I meant a very very long time to crack the CPU base. Eventually the AI will be defeated but, there must be a balance between fun :lol: and the frustration :cry:. It also affects the health of keyboards, mice and other parts of your computer :wink:.
As for going yourself after jammers in well built bases, with more than one, 99.99% that will result in your glorious death :-D
Quote from: llulla on September 18, 2006, 02:13:07 PMAs for going yourself after jammers in well built bases, with more than one, 99.99% that will result in your glorious death :-D
Aye, but it's a glorious death, so it is well worth it. :-D
After reading this thread, I played an IA game yesterday w/ insane AIP on Firestorm(I think, the big green one with the extra service bay, may be called fortress). It was about a two and a half hour ISDF vs Scion match.
Constant maulers & titans until I blockaded their entrance, and then constant maulers, titans and archers. It may have been stalled for a while but it wasn't boring, by far.
Quotethere must be a balance between fun  and the frustrationÂ
It was somewhat frustrating, because while I was trying to cap the NE pool I had to keep making my way back to the middle to deal with archers. But that frustration comes with trying to make the AI realistic. Just like a human player, the AI was doing anything it could to thwart my advantage of having the entire rest of the map.
I am a patient type, so I just maintained my blockade while I built 40 SP tanks, 10 Hornet Tanks, & 10 Attillas to storm the base with.
Though, you could always go with the
MDMMortar, APC, Bomber path if you can't wait.
MDMMortar the jammer and send in a bomber and APC's.
Wug, I have an idea for your AIPs, I dont know how to mod them so only you can say if it's possible. Can you give a waypoint for archers so they go around the map, instead of through the middle?
The biggest thing I saw that the enemy was constanly doing wrong was they kept sending archers down the middle, strait over my rckt tanks, If theyd go over to the North corners and
then go and attack pools and the recy, they mightl have a better chance at making archers a little more effective.[edit]Minor technicality. :)[/edit]
MDM doesn't detonate on Jammers.
I found the Stock 1.3 AIP did too little for base defense. Even if the AI had control of most of the pools, it was possible to win by attacking the AI base directly.
So, I tried to make AI base defense a lot stronger (especially for Scion) within the limitations of the AIPs. I won't bother to get into it, but I tested many different plans over many games. A more active defense, and more of it. Yeah, it's still too predictable, but it's suppose to be "stock" AI.
They were never intended to be some super-duper AI strategy. Just competent enough to make stock IA and MPI fun again. I'm glad GSH fixed all those AIP bugs and added so much new functionality, which should make mods like G66 even better than before.
ScarleTomato, sorry, but I can't redirect the Archers. The AIPs don't use any special pathing points, so that they can be used on any map without changes. The Archers do get staged from different attack points, but I think the map you played is sort of limited that way. Still, it's amazing how fast you took 'em out. :-o
llulla, yeah, it can be frustrating, but I think the AI "keeps better" if there are fewer obvious, easy-to-exploit weaknesses. And if the AI was _that_ good, it wouldn't have to scrap cheat at all. :roll:
I started the topic more out of curiosity than other. I find the increased difficulty in1.3 a real booster for the game. I am playing all maps I have collected in time, and, although these do not take full advantage of 1.3, it is a pleasure to sweat again through them.
So, I am fully for the changes that make AI more efficient and difficult. I always hated (and never used) the bomber solution in 1.2. It was like stealing candy from a baby.
As I said in the beginning, I was for an exchange of opinions and experiences related to the new situation, since now, there are maps that really stretch you. What do you think of ToonTrails base?
Don't remember ToonTrails very well... didn't test a lot on those two maps. Most of it is a blur at this point. :wink:
I remember is was cool to see Maulers come out of the water to attack in Sea Battle. And seeing the AI Bomber work "right" for the first time was a sight to behold. Oh, I also saw a Mauler on two occasions climb up the hill on Dunes to come after me... should have taken a screenshot. :-D
Probably my favourite is still the one by GreenHeart... not Firestorm... ah... the one after it, where there are criss-crossing paths. So far I haven't played it long enough to beat it (can't save in MPI). :roll:
No offense to Aegeis but, I utterly despise those maps! Those damn 8 balls and other junk floating about the map blowing up helpless/clueless AI and setting off the damn "under attack" buzzer. :x
And then the Archers deploy on peaks so high that are outside any range and no unit can climb bombin the Recycler at pleasure. Anyway, What concerns this topic is the base of these maps surrounded with high walls and with narrow and short access ways, giving you visual of the base when it is too late :-D. Under these conditions the cover from jammers is really a pain in a bad place :|
Heh..heh..heh, Just wait till I release my map(http://smilies.vidahost.com/contrib/ruinkai/FIREdevil.gif).......
I've been hanging around too many sick and sadistic bast**ds here for far to long. :wink:
I thought one of the points of jammers WAS to nullify the effect of humans MDMing bases, forcing them to either charge the base to kill the jammer first, or bring seige units to outrange the jammers. In that case it's good, because its too easy to MDM-kill AI bases otherwise (doesn't count if the AI is using major scrap cheats, which IMO is a cheap hack)
No, humans can still MDM the AI base even with Jammers, but the improved AI should make it less effective. :roll:
Yeah, scrap cheat should be avoided, but AI resource cheats at higher difficulty levels are normal in strategy games. I can't think of one game I've played where that's not the case.
I was hoping some map makers would add a few maps to the final release of 1.3, but I guess it's probably too late. :|
Since the Gun Spire's collision box is so huge, it's almost impossible to miss one with an MDM, even if you were having a seizure at the time.
Jammers are intended to hide things, and hide things they do... Anyway, they are meant to make it harder to coordinate an attack on a Scion base, and almost impossible to order airstrikes on one.
Yes, Bomber is practically dead with the new jammer defense 8-). It is good because using it is for cowards :-P. You want the CPUs base go and get it yourself.
What gives me statics to my nerves :-( in the new situation, is facing bases that have 3+ Extractors and the Jammer(s) at the very far end of it.
In front of you, at MDM/Blast range is the first line (but not the last) of Gun Spires and a cocktail of Rocket Spires. You spend a lot of time and scrap to amass Assault, Attilas and Sabres at the edge of the base but can't order them anywhere. You start taking out personally the first line od GSs and, nasty little Builders :evil: systematically restore it back because, there is loads of scrap to the CPU. In the mean time your army drinks the best Mauler spit the CPU has to offer and gets massage jolts from welcoming Titans until is decimated :-D.
So, build and gather again troops, start destroying again GSs AND stay there forever, especially if the map maker had a really twisted humor designing it :?
I can't remember a map like that, but say there is, then it's definitely a map you need an extra player or two. One player can only do so much. :cry:
Firestorm is like that. Fortress also has 4 base pools for AI but has easy acces from sides.
Regardless of how many pools the enemy base has, if the AI scrap cheat is set too high they will always be pumping things out no matter how many pools they have, even if they are down to one.
If the AI is down to one pool, the AI should lose, regardless of scrap cheat. At 60 scrap, it is severely handicapped - base defense is crippled, and all the better units cost over 60 scrap.
My AIPs have a threshold that caps the number of units the AI has at one time, so it won't go crazy just because it has plenty of scrap. So, the AI is beatable even on Insane, albeit unlikely.
Oh, beating it on Insane is possible. I did it in IA and it took me a week. When there base fell I was ready to scream for joy after so much fighting I had done. I mean, the amount of scrap that both sides spent was ridiculious number. :D
Yeah, with the last three difficulty options is like lucky_foot says, you eat all your nails :-D and continue deeper.
I was saying that even with Standard 3.3 of wug, with certain bases is very difficult. Fortress became a problem when the side bridges fell because of the combats taking place near or into them. When the access is only from the front this base becomes a nightmare.
You can try this as a variant of the map by taking out the bridges yourself in the beginning and playing only through the middle.
I take the bridges out anyway to deny the AI the pools on each side. I also use the sides as dropoffs for APC's (just guard with RT's).
Looks like I'm gonna have to shake the rust off and give wug's AIP's a whoopin! :-D
Oh right, Fortress... I've never made it out of my base far enough before I get roasted. :-o
Maybe Firestorm is the map I'm thinking about. I just remember climbing the hill and lobbing MDM to take out the Jammer. On those kind of maps, it really helps to have at least two guys lobbing mortars... much easier than doing it solo.
I'm testing an improved Scion AI now, but it's probably too late to make it into 1.3 patch.
Release a patch of your own for everybody's addon folder. I don't think they'd mind getting the new improved IA that finally causes the player grief. :D
Just make sure that GSH get's a copy so if he ever decides to update the patch (who knows when...if at all) so he can include it.
Well, I'm kinda hesitant about doing that because of the potential for bad assets when playing online. I guess if v3.4 proves to be better, I'll post it up for anyone interested in trying it.
I'd try it, and as for assets you could just put a pre/postfix on all files like ivscoutwug.odf or something, just things like that, putting all cfgs in an independant .pak, god only knows why I am saying this, like you dont know ;)
Make it like a mod? Could even have its own .exe file.
If it's nothing major you could just cram it into a rec variant.
Ah, I just posted it to a new topic (this is getting OT). If the files cause problems, just delete 'em I figure. :evil: