If anyone is interested in trying it, please grab the file from the link below. Made a few minor changes, mainly to improve Scion AI vs. rocket tanks, made the AI slightly more random, and changed how the AI tries to win in late game (it's a surprise sort of).
Ah, I hope everyone knows where the files go.... :wink:
Link (http://www.bstcon.com/~betadudes/Wug/wug_aip_34.zip)
Il take a looksie
Heh... I made one more change. If you got it before 1:30 PM CST today, please grab it again. Sorry. :|
It's tiny, no biggie or need to apologize :)
Haven't even gotten around to testing it yet so I'm the sorry one :) been busy with my ground to air turret
Well, I've posted test #2. Same file name, same place.
May your rocket tanks die a quick death. :wink:
If Wug is at his usual terror with those AIPs, Raven, then you may have a big surprise waiting for you. :)
I went through his AIPs 3.1 to 3.3 and each one seemed to be harder. :D
It's too late to make wholesale changes, but I'm hoping v3.4 is less predictable and more challenging late in the game. It's more fun if the AI can surprise the player once in awhile. :lol:
wug says:
...changed how the AI tries to win in late game (it's a surprise sort of).
What do you mean by LATE ?? When AI has fully developed the base and you are loosing or when you have stripped CPU of the pools and AI is loosing. I played Chill and Iceberg and nothing happened????
Wug,
HAH! I beat it. On Insane, but trust me, I barely did it. :) I played against scions this time and so I built a mass of APCs and then suicide charged with plenty of my units in to the base. I took down to of their jammers in time to order a bomber attack against their factory and the launch of those APCs.
The 20 APCs hit the ground and released so many soldiers that by the time the rest of my fleet arrived, the computer was badly damaged. There was so much scrap laying on the ground, you could have re-built your base 3 times in a row. Even the scavengers were fighting each other. :)
llula, there's not a huge difference. I just put more emphasis on "air power" late in the game. Probably it's only noticable on extreme and insane.
lucky_foot, well, you forced me to change the defenses on the AIPs. Curse you. :wink: But I think you should be able to beat it with the same strategy.
Anyway, I've uploaded test #3. It should attack more aggressively. :-D
Will CPU use air powers if I have reduced its pools to only 2??? What's the number of pools that triggers changes in CPUs strategy?
At two pools, the AI focuses a lot more on ground attacks. It'll still use whatever air units it has, but it should be quite limited. Change of strategy is triggered by the number of pools, but also how much the player has built up, and whether he is attacking or defending (that's just how the AIP files work).
The strongest AI attacks shouldn't come until the player has built up his forces. IMHO, the point is not to make the AI win, but to make for a competitive game. I find it's the most satisfying when you are on the brink of losing and come back victorious (usually after a few losses, of course). :evil:
I noticed something along these lines playing last night Firestorm. Increased air attacks have left me stalled inside a very limited area of the map. In fact, I do not see any resolution of the stall because it is impossible to control any of the peaks that compose the map. That high, Archers are out of any weapons range, and there is no ISDF unit to climb there ( although i saw one of my Assaults doing it :?, but not able to repeat).
Loosing this battle is more than certain under the new AIPs :-(
I think there's probably a few ways to solve that. Maybe try jetpacking up there, then call in an APC to attack. :-)
and a chain/TAG ISDF scout can get on top of any hill in firestorm.
Anything that hovers can get up on any mountain on most maps, it's only a matter of knowing how and knowing where.
Use the force...
GreenHeart maps are more difficult & usually last 90-120 minutes with the stock aip set depending on how much help you have in game. I don't recommend using wug's aip set on the maps i've created since Wug's aip set is alot harder unless you want a game to last more than 2 hours. LoL
Yeah, I played Firestorm with the insane AIP that comes with the patch and it took me 7hrs 50mins to beat the AI...but it was the first time I had played BZ2 in like a year.
Ah come on guys, Insane was meant for 3 or 4 players vs. AI. You know, so MPI would be challenging for a group, unlike in the past. So don't blame the AIPs... I dunno why everyone has to play the toughest setting first. :roll:
If a player wants to beat one of the GreenHeart map quickly, try the Easy AIP set. There's no shame in wanting to play (and win) a quick game is there? Heck, I still usually play on Standard. 8-)
BTW, test #4 has been uploaded. I've changed Scions to switch between air power (Archers) and ground assault late in the game to hopefully make it less predictable. Enjoy. :-D
I played the insane AIP because I wanted the challenge! Even with the amount of rust I had on me and the fact that I started off slow and tentative, I found it to be a little weak. give me a few weekends of solid BZ2 time and I whip it in under 3½ hrs. :-D
btw, it was ISDF vs ISDF.
Woah, that's scary. :-o Well, you can try v3.4, but I don't think even with the ISDF changes, it's gonna be much of a challenge for you.
Guess the really good players will have to wait for G66.
Spawn and I have beaten.. Fortress, I think, in under three minutes.
My complaint with your AIPs is that they do not address the fact that Scion players (Like myself) will find it virtually impossible to defeat the ISDF AI. This is simply because Scions have NOTHING that can stop that many heavy tanks that fast. Gun Spires are useless against heavy armor, Gauss Guardians don't have enough health or range, Maulers are too hard to reach in time... It's simply not possible. Even the stock AIPs make it nearly impossible to play Scion vs ISDF.
Hmmm... let me think about Scion vs. ISDF AI a bit....
I find a line of titans to be the most effective, though rocket spires just kill everything. Baiting helps too.
Yea, a line of Titans works, if you can live long enough to build them. I hate Rocket Spires. :) And baiting is pretty hard to do because there are constantly Rocket Tanks running around targeting everything.
Maybe I should lower the number of attacking units, especially during early and mid-game. Is Scion vs. Scion a problem as well?
IMHO, this is the order for the player from strongest to weakest:
- ISDF vs. ISDF AI (AI is very vulnerable to base attacks / bombing)
- ISDF vs. Scion AI (AI has Jammer, but Gun Towers and Bomber are hard to beat)
- Scion vs. Scion AI (AI has Jammer advantage, and potentially more units)
- Scion vs. ISDF AI (AI has Bomber)
Am I correct to rebalance the AI based on that order?
The problem with playing as Scion against ISDF is that there is a constant stream of Assault and Rocket Tanks pouring into your base from about 5 minutes into the game. Scions just don't have any way to stop that.
The Stock 1.3 AIPs are very aggressive, building very little base defense. I'm not gonna tamper with those, but I'll modify my AIPs to be a little less aggressive off the bat.
So how about once the Scion player has the base established? Is it still harder to play as Scion? And is Scion vs. Scion AI or Scion vs. ISDF AI harder?
Well, Gun Spires don't have nearly as much firepower as Gun Towers, so Scions can't fight off hordes of ships very well.
If the Scion player can get access to Quill, Gauss or Absorbtion, then they will be able to fight off most units fairly well. Once the Scion player gets Sonic, Assault Tanks become nothing more than fodder. If the Scion player gets a Mauler and pilots it personally, he will be able to take on up to two Assault Tanks at a time, or one Rocket Tank and one Assault tank. Once the Scion player can get a few Titans out, they will function just as well as ISDF Gun Towers.
Now, Scions have NO effective air defense, other than Jammers. I recommend halting airstrikes on the player's base if a Jammer is up.
Here's a list of requirements for all the Scion stuff I just mentioned.
Quill - Dower and Antenna
Gauss Gun - Forge and Dower
Absorbtion - Stronghold
Mauler - Stronghold and Dower
Titan - Overseer Array and Stronghold
Jammer - Overseer Array
Give the player and AI build tree a Sonic Spire w/ the Rocket Spire model. :mrgreen:
..except I suppose you'd rather keep this an AIP update.
That and if that tower was added I would NEVER even look at the map it was on, I would delete it on sight. :-o
psh... that'd be a kickass Spire
Well, the AIPs don't understand what a Jammer does, but making the AI just stop all air strikes when there is a Jammer would mean a very easy game. Or if I don't use the bomber at all, the AI would have to compensate with aggressive ground attacks, and that wouldn't make things a whole lot better.
What I think I can do is limit the bomber and APC attacks, but it will be regardless of whether there is a Jammer or not. I'll try my best to approximate the effects of a "Jammer advantage".
Thoughts? :-)
What about the AI only bombs main base elements when there is no jammer.
I could do that, but the AIPs would need to be a lot more complicated to simulate it. It's something much better done by a DLL. It also doesn't address the use of Jammers to defend strategic points outside the main base.
It just gets very ugly, and would still not be "right", so I think it's simpler to limit air attacks and forget about the player needing a Jammer. I figure if I can approximate the "feel", then it's close enough.
DLL? Could the AIP be told not to attack jammed areas via DLL?
[Plan160]
planCondition = "Exists"
planConditionClass= "ivbomb"
planConditionCount = 1
planCondition2 = "NotHisExists"
planConditionClass2= "fbjamm"
planConditionCount2 = 1
planType = "Attacker"
planPriority = 1150
AttackAnything = true //default is true
targetType = "fbrecy"
attackType1 = "ivbomb"
Red Devil, I can't do that. The AI would likely build the bomber before the player has a chance to build a jammer on the higher difficulty levels. I never send the bomber against the recycler anyway because it's too aggressive, IMHO.
But even if I did that, the idle dispatcher would still use the bomber. So what I've done is decrease the number of targets and frequency for idle dispatch, which should keep the bomber away from the player's base for the most part.
Since the AIPs can't tell the jammer's location, I'm not gonna bother to try to simulate it too accurately. Anyway, the rebalanced AIPs are almost done. :-D
BLOCK the bomber completely wug. Bomber should be used in MP human against human. I have always said that using Bomber against CPU is like stealing candies from babies :x.
Something else wug, maybe an impression and I invite others to check. I see two different levels of AI response related with the specific pools I occupy at the very beginning of a map ( play Standard also all the time).
If I take the only the "obvious" pools close to my base, and let the AI the rest, the AI response is crushing, causing me to loose for sure in 90% of the cases.
If I get ONLY one more the AI response is bleak or pitifully. I saw that first at Chill when kept the central poll since the beginning. I had 3 pools AI had 4. That repeats in Canyons, Iceberg, High&Low in 3-3 pool domination.
There should be difference but not of this kind, from devastating to easy with one pool difference.
Quote from: APCs r evil on September 29, 2006, 07:41:40 PM
Anything that hovers can get up on any mountain on most maps, it's only a matter of knowing how and knowing where.
I would like to see if anyone can get an AI Scout on top of the narrow central peaks of Firestorm 8-). If so please share the secret.
Don't have the AI pilot it, do it yourself. 8-)
In the heat of the battle?? With Archers deployed at 2-3 different (and somehow distant locations)? With Maulers and Titans accompanying and defending Archers (courtesy of wug's)? Your life expectancy will be a negative figure :-D.
Can you spare a second of the time you are using to keep your base piece, to fly away( and high) and take out (maybe) a single archer????? Get real APC!
I'm talking real-life suggestions hoe to counter wug's "air powers" in maps where the heights are outside the weapons range AND you CAN NOT deploy any AI unit up there.
llula, IMHO, the ISDF AI should use the bomber, or it'd lose its air supremecy. It'd be like taking away the Jammer for Scion. Ah, it'll never be perfect... just hope MPI plays a bit better.
As for the pools thing, the AI response should be different when it has 1, 2 or 3 pools. At 3 or more, it should play pretty much the same. It might be because maulers tend to attack very fast and doesn't let the AI queue up properly. I'll check it.
ScarleTomato, I'm not sure if a DLL can be made to properly a Jammer, but I know AIPs fore sure can't. :wink:
You have to prioritize the threats on your base. An Archer is relatively low compared to a Mauler or Titan. Kill the Archer AFTER you kill the bigger fish.
BTW, my life expectancy is never a negative figure. 8-)
It's easy to take out archers, they are incrediblly weak, not to mention it takes a second to get up the hill and kill the archers, who almost always go to the same place to attack something. Some ai units can even climb hills, though they can only go up in certain places.
yes lulla, that is a feasible real-life solution to the archer problem, I have the exact same tactic when it comes to archers. Go out and hunt them down yourself. It is completley legit. Works like a charm, and if you know how to evade the big guys, you rarely walk back to base.
[IdleDispatcher]
BomberIdleSeconds = 14400 // # of seconds before a bomber is sent out.
llulla, I think your problem is that you seem to be a Bunker Jockeyâ,,¢ which can get you into a great deal of trouble game wise, that and an appearant lack of resource management.
Okay, I'll put in the plans to have the jammer block all bomber attacks. Personally, I think it's unfair for the AI - one uber-jammer that can cover the entire map is quite the bargain.
But at least the jammer is something the player has to build now. ;)
Okay, test #5 is now up. I didn't test it yet, so if anyone runs into an error, please tell me. 8-)
If playing Scion vs. ISDF AI, be warned that the bomber is now quite aggressive, so you will need to put up a Jammer ASAP.
Good luck!
[shakes fist and shouts in Charleton Heston voice]
DAMN YOUUUUU!
:lol:
Who has gone up the peaks of the type Firestorm, I did not manage I I want to see how someone did it accelerating :-o through the narrow tunnels full of Mauler+Titans.
I agree other maps allow to put RTs, which really live up to their name, on high spots, but not always. Try ToonTrails and you will witness the scraping of your recycler with you only as a spectator.
wug's AIP sends Archers in 2s and 3s every wave and, if you don't have time to take out all of them, by the next wave there can be concentrations of 3+. Even when in couples, the GTs go down very easily :? imagine 3+ (at the same time you Maulers are charging). It is not right to say Archers are at the bottom of priority, not with this effect on GTs. I,ve seen it happen!
I agree I am a bunker Jockey up to a certain point. How can you play the middle section of the game (resisting and building up forces) outside a bunker. On very small maps maybe but, let say Swamp or similar????Â
This way it becomes REAL resource management, because you control ALL the map and make the chess moves as a Commander you are . Engaging yourself in some some skirmish in one corner of the map and let a whole flank on the others side collapse because, you can't order a couple backup of units that can save the day, it is simply stupid. When it comes to take down bases I do it personally riding SPStab-ed Attilas that mow everything 8-) in their path, and I DO NOT NEED a Bomber for that.
BTW, I am also an FPS gamer and take my dose of action usually with UT the first, the one and only :-D.
llula, have you boosted up by holding the "w", and "d" and "e" keys at once while getting a running start? I find I can get up to most places doing that in a Sabre.
I did a quick check on the AIPs last night, and it looks to be working okay. Played much the same as before on Standard - ISDF vs. Scion AI, but most of changes affect playing Scion and the harder AIPs.
Well,
Being the Bunker jockey isn't bad if you don't spend the whole time there. On the LAN at home one of my friends is a Bunker Jockey and we always can find him in the Scion Antenna. :D
We used to rush his base in a scout, blow up, and then glide in to the Antenna where he invariably would be waiting for us to kill him. :)
It's like a stage
1. Don't want to build
2. Will build, but run around like mad trying to be everywhere at once.
3. Bunker Jockey never leaving.
4. Leaving more often
5. Using the Bunker only when necessary.
I usually use the Bunker when I want a Bird's eye veiw of what's going on and the enemy isn't trying any horrendious attacks. When he does then I jump out and try to get my scout (assuming that a pilot didn't wander off with it. :D )
Oh, I remember one time my friend hopped out of his Attila into the Relay Bunker, and a couple minutes later (you guessed it), the Attila is trashing our base. :lol:
ROFLOL.
I did that to my brother in a Base buildilng match.
We had four bases each enemies and one of my brother's decided to "secretly" trade him a Mauler since Nathan wasn't a good player yet. Well, I spotted the trade and Bailed out of my scout and glided right in to the empty mauler. :)
In the other room I heard:
NATHAN: I can't get in to the Mauler, It's changed color.
TIMOTHY: Oh, Shoot!
I had a hayday. :D
I bet you have auto leveling on...
And any good com never uses the bunker, unless they feel like taunting the other team :P
He! He! This is kids stuff! In many years of BZ I have "distilled" the Bunker Jockey trade and NEVER used auto-levelling.
One thing first, I rarely play against humans, so it is always against CPU (reasons would make an interesing topic). I thank wug for pushing the difficulty to the levels of today and making the play against computer hair-tearing.
Here are some of the rules that, over a long time seem to me safe and sound:
1 - Never build your bunker at the base but at some invisible corner. Use if possible hills or places high-up (BTW why 1.3 constructors are unable do cross a ditch??).
2- Eject from the vehicle, blowing it up the moment you get in the bunker. The JetPack is more than enough to get you to the base or a rescue unit.
3 - Hide AI scouts in unthinkable places so you can catch every bugger trying to sneak through unconventional routes and surprise you. If a scout goes down, jetpack and get a craft to be safe.
4 - If your AIs get into a messy situation in one of the fronts, jump out and order a reserve Sabre(always keep a lot of Sabres on standby) to pick you up and go to solve the problem first hand.
5- When your units are annihilated through one of the attacking paths, get out and get a ride because you don't "see" anymore what passes through there.
6- The most painful one :-D; when you hear the sound of an Archer nearby, it is TOO late :-(, so watch VERY carefully the Archerrs that follow attack lines somehow close to your bunker.
These and other lesser rules, guarantee a good direction of the game until I reach the necessary build-up of forces that allow me to go myself at the front.
The actual play with strong jammers wug, it is not far from my philosophy: no bomber; see and destroy first the defense line of the base with Plasma modded Attila; order your loyal followers :-D to shoot everything that moves (unfortunately this now doesn't work with strong jammers).
Yep, Bunker Jockeyâ,,¢
Bunker Jockeys are pretty easy to spot, all you have to do is watch their constructors going off to "safe spots."
Bunker Newbies on the other hand are a bit harder to spot, the only way you can tell if someone is a Bunker Newbie is if you don't see their ship zooming around.
The only good reason to get in a bunker is to get a quick look at several far-off points on the map for whatever reason, even then it's risky.
And how do you watch the Constructor at the beginning when you are not yet out of your base APC?? It does not show even from your Bunker... :-D. OR you abandon the build of your base and go after others constructor :wink:??.
For me a the "safe place" is not the "hidden place" it is "get me if you can" place. If someone fights the way through several defenses and lives to reach the Command bunker... :lol:, it is for a meager price- empty bunker (jetpacks do a good job, I assure you). So the attacker becomes the fall guy. :-D
I think everyone's entitled to play the game the way they like. If you can get an RTS friend to play BZ2 by using the Relay Bunker, for example, that sounds fine to me. llula can't get away with playing that style in Strat, but it's reasonable enough in MPI.
Personally, I only use the Relay Bunker when I've been shot out of my ride, and can't wait for a vehicle to go back and command troops. Sometimes getting in a Gun Tower is fun too. :lol:
With 1.3, maybe the Comm vehicle will come in more play.
Quote from: llulla on October 03, 2006, 04:58:42 PM
And how do you watch the Constructor at the beginning when you are not yet out of your base APC?? It does not show even from your Bunker... :-D. OR you abandon the build of your base and go after others constructor :wink:??.
For me a the "safe place" is not the "hidden place" it is "get me if you can" place. If someone fights the way through several defenses and lives to reach the Command bunker... :lol:, it is for a meager price- empty bunker (jetpacks do a good job, I assure you). So the attacker becomes the fall guy. :-D
A constructor is 40 scrap, an empty is worth 20, killing a con early game ESPECIALLY if it goes off to some far corner all alone is easy and very effective, or if you want to defend your con the other player could easily make some turrets and take all the pools while you are prancing after the con, as it will be killed any other way.
Bunker Jockey is becoming a topic in itself while this topic deals with the effects of the new AIPs from wug. Let's get back on track and talk how to adapt to the new situation.
I was interested on countermeasures to Archers deployed in difficult/unreachable points. To date NONE OF YOU proved that can fly a vehicle on top of Fortresses peaks and a practical way to destroy Archers deployed high there. If yes, no one SHARED anything in this topic.
IF this is a real forum then, do it yourself first, and then share your knowledge with those asking for it. No one gains anything from grandfather type advices.
The only true counter to Archers that the ISDF has is an APC or two.
Thanks APC!
That's a helpful hint. What about the ammo? The soldiers get very fast out of ammo and my not be able to kill the archers of the following wave. Wug's scenarios sometimes don't leave time to get rid of the first archers and the others show into the scene (very good thing too).
Wug! Is it possible a plan that places, in a first wave, the heavy pieces of the CPU (Maulres/Titans) at the access paths of the human base in defense mode (block everything going out)?
Immediately after, a wave made only of archers (as much as scrap allows for CPU), deploys behind the strong pieces and opens simultaneous fire on the base:evil:.
Some kind of "hell rains from the sky"AIP :-D.
Quote from: llulla on October 04, 2006, 11:09:10 AMIF this is a real forum then, do it yourself first, and then share your knowledge with those asking for it.
Eh? Indeed I have done this. Use WA & E and tilt your nose up as you go up the hill. A video won't tell you anything more than this, but if you really need one, give me a solution to post one. Fraps can make a thirty second video but it's rather large and takes too long to upload.
Quote from: llulla on October 04, 2006, 11:09:10 AMWhat about the ammo? The soldiers get very fast out of ammo
Soldiers replenish ammo like any other pilot.
llula, the AIPs don't have that granular level of control. I've set it up so the waves are generally ordered Mauler -> Titan -> Archer, but later in the game, it's pseudo-random. Given the limited control, I generally prefer more random attacks, so the player can't entirely anticipate the next attack.
A request like that should be made to Natty for G66. 8-)
Actually you point your nose down, pointing it up slows you down.
Not for climbing cliffs, but you can usually get good air too if you "flick" your nose down hard as you burst off the peak and press S not W as you do so.
Some peaks like Fortress are very high, 90 degree sleek walls with no slope at all and almost no space on top where a hoverig craft can stop. I have always had fun in climbing even using multiple jump technique, from e peak to another further to the final one. Still there are maps with altitudes you can never get without cheats.
There is the practical side also. Difficult peaks require a more elaborate jump that needs more time to execute from acceleration to the actual jump and stabilization. 50% you fail the first attempt so the intervention time increases. Most of the time THERE IS NO TIME time to loose :-D jumping around, I hope you agree.
The suggested alternative from APCs, is a standard response to a standard threat, limiting the improvisation to really nasty situations :-o. A good commander should act like that :-D.
I just took my scout to the high peaks in fortress. If you get a running start and while holding doun the w e & a key point your nose down a little, and just keep going till you reach the top. It also helps to pick the right spot.
It's a little known fact that if you know what you are doing, pretty much any cliff is scaleable in bz2, unless it's stupidly huge. It's just a thing with the codeing. Well thats my explanation but the climbing bit is true.
Just tried Firestorm... got up the hill no problem. Full throttle, kept the scout level and boosted up with the "e" key. :-D
Uh! Uh! :x BIG ERROR!!! All the time I was saying Fortress meant FIRESTORM. Those peaks are not normal while Fortress has no peaks to mention for.
So wug, you got up at Firestorm! Was it at the heights bordering N-NW of ISDF base? This is a difficult spot for me, and there is where archrers go :lol:.
UNFORTUNATELY my 6600GT blew last night , bloody PNY. I will need a week or so before I can test again :-(.
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=8743980936126958832&hl=en
one of the tallest peaks in firestorm. This climb also shows (i think)the coding glitch that raven was talking about.
The resolution isn't all that great(google video compressed it me thinks), but you can see that about halfway up, I stopped going up. If you dig into the ground it'll let you climb the air a couple meters away from the land. Also I botched my launch, It is definitley possible to climb that same hill much faster, but it took me all day to get that video live, so forgive me if I don't sacrifice more free time towards proving that I'm not lying. :wink:
Nice climb and video. :)
What did you do to stay in that one point so you can continue to climb? Usually if I don't make a good launch, I have to drop down and try again.
Way to go Scarlet! Thanks! That is even more than needed :-D.
As I posted previously, my video card screw last night and I have to wait to attempt your deeds :lol: