Am I the only one who thinks that the Scion Seekers are wimpy?
And how about those Assault Lasers? Ugh.
Proximity Mines? I feel like I went over a speed bump.
Any others?
lets see...
splinter...
all the weapons are wimpy
I have always felt the proximity mines were too ineffective. I think decreasing the suppressRadius would be a big help because as they are, they tend not to go off because they think you are too close. An increase in damage would be good, too, like bz1 kind of damage.
And yeah, seekers need a big bump in speed and damage. But, mainly speed. I think they should be effective at detering opponents from circle strafing in the same area.
@Seeker: Try my Digger, it goes under ground and hurts like hell.
@Ass. Lasers: Try my Assault Pulse lasers, much better.
@Prox. Mines: My High-Explosive-Detonation mines can kill a scout in 1 or 2 hits.
@Splinter: Ever tryed my lightning splinter?
</shameless mod plug>
Anyway, the weapon I always found a bit wimpy was the pb3 jax, they just dont seem to do any damage.
Seekers, are pretty usless in human vs human strat, more often than not you hit your own ones while reversing.
Prox mines are however not as wimpy as the seem, cleverly deployed in a dogfight, they can be very effective against scouts and tanks. Its stock explosion sucks due to its high particle count.
The assault laser is a great anti scout/tank defence when used in a turret, chains or pummel are much better in a walker.
I love walking into someone's base with plasma and pummel and just demolishing it.
Scion rockets, except the combat stinger, are pretty weak though.
Quoteall the weapons are wimpy
That's what makes BZ2 a good fight, don't forget that human players can use multiple weapons to devastating effects.
Powerful weapons should not be too easy to use and should use lots of ammo.
true - i always thought that weapons are too slow and their ranges are far too short
Oh yeah, Jax. :roll:
Splinter? Yep. More of an annoyance than anything. Dangerous to make more powerful though, because it might bring back the dreaded "Splinter fags".
Was thinking Prox could use a little kick.
You're right about the laser in turrets. Was thinking mostly of it in the Walkers, which is why I gave mine their own version. (Mauler: You call *that* a gun???" *Peals of uproarious laughter*)
Worked on the Multi-Lock lately, so it's better. Stock Xares and Lancer 1-on-1 are pretty even. Wasp is better.
Agreed about the multiple-use of weapons by humans.
Splinter fags??
When has using splinter ever been a problem? I see newbies all the time who rush into my base and fire all (2) of their splinters, taking out all of their ammo to do what? To simply alert me that an enemy might be starting to try to shoot rubber BBs into my well-defended Recycler's heavy Biometal-ish armor.
That's from the BZ1 days.
Run in and dump a couple of those things? The only reason they were annoying was because they fired miniguns instead of a custom weapon.
VSMIT.
Speaking of custom weapons from splinters, anyone ever try making an anchor round splinter?
- Prox mines, I think would benefit from a lowering of ammo cost by a factor of 20 to 40%
- Assault lasers would benefit from having their attack vs light armor increased but keeping their range low (walkers with laser effectively become good at killing light units like trucks @ <100m)
- Splinters should be overhauled by a lot. I suggest that the splinter object remain in the world for ~15 seconds and continue to fire rounds so that anything that wanders into its attack radius takes damage.
- Swarm missiles should also be overhauled to fire in a narrower pattern and a higher velocity, increase explosive kick.
- TAG, increase the velocity of the leader round by a lot, lower ammo consumption, give the tag rounds greater amount of waver.
- What are those seeking/killable missiles on DM:Pyramid called? (EDIT: they're called mini comet) Would be nice if they were faster and didnt consume so much ammo.
- Please lower stingers seeking / turn rate if possible, they are already cheap in 1.2 DMs and giving them greater image seeking ability does not make them any less cheap in 1.3 DM.
anchor round splinters yes i have...
'twas' a normal splinter building, which fire heat seeking invisible rockets which did the anchor jobby pretty good, had a sodding huge explosion so it looked like an emp.
trouble is anchor rockets jsut hold the craft exactly where it is, so it can still shoot you which is stupid as...
i got rid of it though :( may have another go later...
Many people argued FOR weaker weapons during the BZ2 beta because they were still fresh from BZ1. Remember, BZ1 was mostly about dogfighting in DM's and a lot less about strat...
The least favorite and least strategic weapons are those that are one or two shot kills. Like the one shot bump-n-kill stealth dual maggers that were hated and reviled...
Weaker weapons make for fun dogfights, with skill being the key over just having the bigger gun. Maybe not all that realistic but the key is fun, not realism. Nobody likes a no-warning skyride because you just got whacked with a one-shot kill weapon, it makes you feel cheated. That's why mine stacking and dual-magging were banned, because doing so took the fun out of the game.
-Av-
Do you think my Destroyer weapon, a one shot-charge gun/laser will upset people? the combat version is only single and not as powerful as a mag but the assault version hits like a bomber when doubled up on a walker, its got range too, it takes 7 seconds to fire and uses loads of ammo, you need a few trucks. Without trucks you get two double shots in a walker.
Its practically useless with AI.
That might be good for a defensive weapon in a GT. SupportProcess uses chargeguns well. I have a modified assault MAG that is one shot at full charge.
I'm not arguing for one-shot weapons here. Just pointing out useless ones which could be more useful instead of being bench warmers. But, as has been said, due to humans rolling through the weapons quickly, the fire rate (and, hence, DPS) increases.
Maybe a better gauge of a weapon's usefulness is damage per ammo cost, or at least account for that in the calculations.
What I've noticed is the the reliance upon fewer and fewer weapons, which detracts from the beauty of the game, which is the ability to counter weapons with other weapons. If you rely on just a few, why bother having the rest?
Jax is supposed to be a getaway weapon, where you poop it out the back to slow down your pursuer, but all it does is make people laugh.
Splinter should do *some* increased damage. The best thing is does now is maybe cause some alarm to humans when you get multiple damage indicators and distracts AI units when they get hit.
The Stinger is a thermal missile and its seeking ability is determined by the heatSignature of the target, so not much can be done to the missile to make it not seek so well except to reduce the heat sig of the craft. They are a nice over-the-horizon weapon. Pretty weak against heavy and light armor compared to the TAG's swarmer missiles.
Agreed about the Prox mine ammo.
Agreed about TAG, except maybe for the leader round speed. They're stronger than Stingers against armor.
Might be Mini-Hornets on Pyramid.
need coffee...
QuoteThat might be good for a defensive weapon in a GT.
I wouldn't want it built anywhere near my base! It causes a very large explosion when it hits. It is best used to annihilate the enemy base buildings and constructors while still out of range of most defences, its at the end of the tech tree, you need an Emperor before you can build one. Its intended to break stalemate situations, the walker is of course vulnerable to attack while charging.
3 units can use it walker x2, battle tank x1, and mortar dalek x1. the first two cannot use shields, the mortar dalek can use shields and specials and well may be dangerous in human hands. If they can drive it (assault hover) :-D
thermalmissiles like the stinger have two values which adjust its effectiveness, one controls the radius at which the stinger picks the highest heat sig, the other one controls how fast the stinger turns while it is tracking a target. The turn speed definitely needs to be reduced, and i'm not kidding -- not by much, but by enough so that it isnt such a powerful noob weapon in DM. Stingers were bad in 1.2 DM, and are worse in 1.3 DM. This is not good.
Bz2 is mainly strategy and i find stingers good.
I find prox mines wimpy.
I also find Seekers are good although i don't use them much.
I use seekers when driving a sentry fighting scouts.
The seekers preoccupy the FAF Missle's
Besides I ussually use Lancers to try to fight sabres.
The scions don't have many units that give sabres a fight.
I've found in my tests that warriors always get thier asses kicked by sabres and are very weak. However the lancers do a much better job and last a little longer.
I see what you mean now. Looks like stinger was changed from this in 1.2:
[MissileClass]
omegaTurn = 1.0
[ThermalMissileClass]
coneAngle = 0.25
to this in 1.3:
[MissileClass]
omegaTurn = 1.5
omegaWaver = 0.5
rateWaver = 6.0
[ThermalMissileClass]
coneAngle = 0.3
Good point about Seekers:
unitName = "Seeker"
heatSignature = 10.0
imageSignature = 10.0
radarSignature = 10.0
Thermalmissiles are why Scions have Solar Flares, although Flares can be fun for a lot of odd uses...
Shadowers are my fav, as are Lancers. I like having four or five Lancers sitting around my base in case MortorBikes come cruising in. Tag in Rocket Tanks does the same thing for the ISDF.
I can't (won't) speak to balance for human games, as humans is cwazy wabbits and will do the darndest things with mundane weapons...
I always figured if you balanced things properly for the AI to use that'd be the best you could do... humans will always find a way to turn balance on it's ear.
-Av-
I would suggest not increasing prox mine damage value higher than what it is in 1.2. As it is, prox mines already do enough damage to be useful in 1.2 DMs, to the point where some people will set up a small trap and lure a ship there to fight it, booby trap pods, or simply run around laying mines hoping to catch unsuspecting ships that are low on health.
I havent checked whether they are nerfed in 1.3 DM, but if they aren't nerfed the only change that need be made is to have its ammo consumption tweaked down by a relatively small amount.
I think what would be a very good idea is to create DM and strat versions of some weapons that have had large changes made to them in order to create balance in strats. For instance, remember when they made the ammo cost of pummel super high? Sure it helped prevent people from taking down your rec with pummel scouts but, it also made pummel completely useless in DM.
And the proxymine really needs to be changed. Maybe, not in damage as Zero Angel suggested, but the suppress range makes it useless to deploy in a dog fight. I'd suggest increasing the trigger range to maybe 30 or 40, turn the suppress range down to 20 or 15(or get rid of it), and keep the damage the same.
Oh, and if anyone wanted to I think the visual explosion could use some reworking as it is it looks more like a gaseous burst than a real explosion.
I like that suggestion. FYI always beware of tweaking things too far, like avatar says humans have a way of cleverly finding use for certain things that they werent fully designed for. You tweak something by a lot and while it seems perfectly balanced in your few playtests, a human might find way to exploit its qualities too much. (ie: Imagine if splinters were turned into powerful base killers, then what would happen if three or four human tanks started firing splinters at the rec of a well defended base)
I've been doing that with the AI team's ships and the AI team's weapons in FE lately. That way, the AI gets some help, but it doesn't affect the human team ships. Some of the guys here have seen the fast test scouts I made that show what the AI is capable of when given a chance. The FE ones aren't like that though.
How about a very slight kick added to prox too?
Here's the Proxmine, which is untouched in 1.3:
Dispenser:
[WeaponClass]
classLabel = "dispenser"
wpnName = "Prox Mine"
fireSound = "mmine01.wav"
wpnReticle = "gproxmin"
wpnCategory = "SPEC"
[DispenserClass]
shotDelay = 4.0
objectClass = "proxmine"
Mine:
[GameObjectClass]
geometryName = "igprox00.xsi"
classLabel = "proximity"
scrapCost = 0
scrapValue = 0
maxHealth = 150
maxAmmo = 200
unitName = "Prox Mine"
[MineClass]
lifeSpan = 30
xplBlast = "xminxpl"
[ProximityMineClass]
triggerRadius = 20.0 <== make this 30..40
suppressRadius = 40.0 <== make this 15..20
Damage:
damageRadius = 50.0 <== Keep this?
damageValue(N) = 600
damageValue(L) = 400
damageValue(H) = 200
damageValue(S) = 400
damageValue(D) = 600
damageValue(A) = 200
The problem with xminxpl.odf is this
particleClass2 = "xminxpl.puff"
particleCount2 = 70
particleVeloc2 = "90.0 90.0 90.0"
70! particles lasting 1 second, anyone ever see 70 particles? no, the game culls most of them. 90 velocity is what makes it look gassy.
While I'm at it,
gsplasma_a fires at a rate of 50 per second.
plasstream renders this for every shot
[Core]
renderBase = "draw_twirl"
textureName = "plasma.tga" //flame2
textureBlend = "one one modulate"
startColor = "255 155 155 255"
finishColor = "255 200 0 155"
startRadius = 0.1
finishRadius = 1.0
animateTime = 1.0
[Puff]
renderBase = "draw_twirl"
textureName = "plasma.tga" //flame2
textureBlend = "one one modulate"
startColor = "50 50 0 160"
finishColor = "255 0 0 0"
startRadius = 0.01
finishRadius = 5.0
animateTime = 1.0
So thats 100 renders every second! 1 for every millisecond for as long as you hold the trigger down.
People don't like using this weapon in strat games because the overhead strain it places on your pc can get you killed.
Someone double the damage and halve the fire rate or more for pb4!
Playing with those now. With plasstream set to half shotDelay, it shoots out little plasma balls. Still monkeying with it.
I set proxmine tho this so far and it works and looks pretty good. Adding just a little kick to see how that goes.
particleCount2 = 7
particleVeloc2 = "30.0 30.0 30.0"
damageRadius = 15.0
[ProximityMineClass]
triggerRadius = 15.0
suppressRadius = 20.0
The kick adds a nice little touch. Just enough to bump you, depending on the target's mass. Scavs hardly get any movement, while ST's get push more.
Explosion looks better too.
Plasma Stream? After looking at the original, the modified ones looks just as good and maybe better.
I'll post links here in a bit so you can try them out.
Okay, try these.
Just unzip to your addon and it will put everything in its own folder, so you can just move the folder out of addon or delete the folder to disable it.
It includes a Sabre loaded with the weapons.
The Prox mine is set to fire quickly so you can experiment with it better.
Just enter an IA game as ISDF with your starting force set to large, hop out, and tell a Sabre to pick you up.
[link removed by RD, updated later in thread]
While we're talking about optimizations. Just out of curiosity, but have the max # of displayable effects on scion shielding been reduced? (and if not, is there an ODF entry that will allow this to be limited?) -- I ask this because in 1.2 attacking a shielded warrior with the Mauler's "Fang" weapon cause some HUGE framerate hits as 20+ shield effects are displayed at once.
I chatted with Ken once about that and he mentioned something about looking into limiting the saturation that can occur in such a situation. Shields are the biggest abusers but there are several other effects that cause that sort of framerate hit if you're too close to the target.
That sort of particle/effect cullling would be fantastic, especially for older systems.
-Av-
Perhaps if the Shield effects could be changed from being texture based to being billboards, that would probably help the framerate a great deal in those quick circumstances as some billboards could just be drawn from a buffer real quick, instead of needing to render a texture (probably multiple times with multiple hits) and sending it across the bus.
If this was DX7 or higher then I would recommend a little shader code that would pretty much fix that slowdown easily.
Anybody try the ones I posted?
On my tests (in the editor), the prox mine detonates right away, damaging the tank i'm using to plant it. Also I think it could do with a little more kick to give it more of an impactful effect. As-is it doesnt really slow down even asstanks.
Hmmm, maybe RD's been spending too much time messing with FE... he's trying to turn us all into those 'Xeraxis' things that cruise in and blow up...
-Av-
Heh. Might be some truth in that. :lol:
Here' try this. I had set the triggerRadius to less that the suppressRadius right before I zipped it, but didn't test it. That'll learn me. :roll:
Just found that this Plasma Stream won't work on the move due to the shotSpeed being too low (50/2 = 25). It fires, but you never see it leave the barrel of the gun, except in 3rd person.
[link removed by RD]
this is a bit late, but try changing the weapons the spinter shoots ammo cost to 1.....they become MUCH more useful
QuoteJust found that this Plasma Stream won't work on the move due to the shotSpeed being too low (50/2 = 25)
what did you slow it down for?
Just need to adjust the fire rate of the gun (shots per second), and the damage each shot caused, to equal what it was and draw less sprites.
I want an ass laser.....
it'll certainly provide much needed relief against them dang tailgaiters!
Remember, if you want to ride my ass, at least pull my hair!
....
oh...
You were referring to Assault lasers.... my bad. nvm
Argh, you're right. There was a lot of shot separation, so it looked less like a stream, but this is good enough.
Replaced old file:
Test Weapons (http://files.filefront.com/RD+test+weps7z/;9397069;/fileinfo.html)
Quote from: mrtwosheds on January 07, 2008, 05:25:02 PM
QuoteJust found that this Plasma Stream won't work on the move due to the shotSpeed being too low (50/2 = 25)
what did you slow it down for?
Just need to adjust the fire rate of the gun (shots per second), and the damage each shot caused, to equal what it was and draw less sprites.
Quote from: mrtwosheds on January 07, 2008, 05:25:02 PM
QuoteJust found that this Plasma Stream won't work on the move due to the shotSpeed being too low (50/2 = 25)
what did you slow it down for?
Just need to adjust the fire rate of the gun (shots per second), and the damage each shot caused, to equal what it was and draw less sprites.
Quote from: BZDraconian on January 07, 2008, 05:41:45 PM
I want an ass laser.....
it'll certainly provide much needed relief against them dang tailgaiters!
:lol:
I'll be interested if there is a difference in frame rates between the two plasma streams.
Concerning the prox mine I agree with ZERO ANGEL that the blast damage is good enough. And not to increase it.
I don't want to be dealing with gay mine stacking that BZ1 players constantly do.
However increasing the longevity of the prox mine would be nice because it blows up after a few seconds of being placed and if you ask me it should last way longer.
I reduced the blast distance to 15, so try it out.
Touching balance of already balanced weapons like blast is generally not a good idea. In 1.2, blast is at the top of the tech tree for a reason, one of the main points of the game (in strat) is to race to blast or arc/blink.
With blast, if you (eg) lower its attack distance, then you run the risk of unbalancing it. One of the dynamics of blast weapon is that it is powerful, but it drains ammo a lot and its weak against assault units and buildings -- lower its distance and you should tweak up something else, like making it consume less ammo. Thats risky though, if you want to tweak it in the first place, do so very carefully.
I kind of liked how in 1.1 it consumed less ammo and did more damage vs heavy units. But overall I think it is fine in 1.2 (even though it was balanced down) and hopefully wont be completely ruined in 1.3
Oh heck yes, it needs to last longer, that is the only reason I do not use mines, cannot create a minefield. Heck, the old mine fields they found were thousands of years old, certainly the ISDF/Scion's can last more then a few freakin seconds...
Sorry, ZA, I meant the blast damage distance of the prox mine, not Blast Cannon.
I agree on the lifeSpan of the mines. Way short, but that's probably so they aren't all used to form wall, okay, minefield, that creates an impasse. Not sure though.
Well the mines can still be killed with weapons fire easily enough, there are weapons that could clear a minefield quickly enough.
Quote from: OvermindDL1 on January 12, 2008, 06:47:41 PM
Well the mines can still be killed with weapons fire easily enough, there are weapons that could clear a minefield quickly enough.
*coughcough*My cluster bomber*cough*
Talking about stock here.
What do you guys think would be a good lifespan for mines?
Quote from: Red Devil on January 13, 2008, 12:53:42 AM
Talking about stock here.
What do you guys think would be a good lifespan for mines?
1e6, 30 seconds is way too short for setting a trap.
maybe 30 mins
naw........ 5 min tops, plenty of time for a nearby scav to fall victim :evil:
If Prox mines last for too long, then you could basically cover the ground in front of your base with a layer of Prox mines before an enemy team would be able to attack, and vice-versa. The game would never end! Players would simply lay as many as they could, run and get a few service pods, then lay some more and so on.
Right now, however, they are used mainly in quick battles in case a unit happens to get clumsy in a dogfight and run over it (which never happens, so they are never used).
I would say 10 minutes (600 seconds) would be good, just in case a team wanted to prepare for an incoming rush of hungry units.
True, but also take into account that when one mine goes off, it often destroys any others around it. So, large chunks of a mine field disappear at a time. And things usually move too quickly in team strat for someone to lay a whole carpet of mines. So a mine field is only an issue in ffa, where you do generally have the time get rid of a field or the units to simply plow through.
And I also think 10 min is good.
I must disagree, 1 min max for the stock prox mine, it is essentially a combat weapon, if you want to lay mine fields, get a mine layer with its own mines. In 10 min 2 strat teams could lay hundreds of mines, the build up of mines could lead to frame rate issues, many strat games don't even last 10 min!
If the prox mine lasts too long, teams will use them to rec rush, planting them around the enemys rec early in the game, denying their opponent new ships and pods at the most critical point in the game.
Mines need to be carefully balanced, Daleks have a weapon known as Arczor, a mortar arc mine, you can fire one every 10 sec they last 20 sec, so you can only have 2 active per unit firing them, if they lasted any longer they would be far too powerful.
Well, perhaps the expire/death explosion should be the same as the detonation.
That would be good, therefore if someone did lay a tight minefield then when the first counter expires then they would all detonate.
Minefields are easy to kill with mortars, because of their wide damage radius plus the chain reaction effect mentioned by anomaly, just have two sabres or archers take out a section of the minefield or your units to go through.
Also, I just had an idea for a very interesting bomber payload.
It would be a modded carpet bomber that drops spraybombs that turn into mines instead of splinters, instant mine fields! It would be interesting to see what would happen if you dropped it on an enemy base...
Anyway, back on topic, I say a minute and a half for combat mines and 1e6 for assault versions on minelayers or something.
QuoteWell, perhaps the expire/death explosion should be the same as the detonation.
hmm, mines are available right at the start of the game, Think "how would you like 20 of these on you recycler spawn point"....
thats a good point - maybe make you and the recycler invincible for the first 5 seconds after it has spawned
There's a Recycler Invulnerability slider in 1.3 strat Extra Options that has a range of 0..15 minutes.
The Prox mine I posted has a damage/triggerRadius of 15 meters, so if you spread the mines farther than 15 meters apart, they don't daisy chain.
I remember in BZ1, there were a few Bolt Mines at the end that didn't expire, but they were pre-placed.
10 minutes sounds reasonable to start with.
maybe make the minimum invunerability for recyclers 5 seconds - it would mean that if mines have been pre-placed at your spawn point they would detonate before the recycler can be damaged
Okay, how about this: Make the expire/destroyed explosion just powerful enough to kill other mines within its field. That way even if they do plant them all over your base, you don't need to worry about them hurting your buildings when you shoot them. And don't give then a lot of health; say, about as much as could be taken out with two at-stab shots.
You could also give them a bit of a longer shot delay so you can't make a large mine field quickly. But, then again, I don't see team members sitting around spending 5 min making a mine field as being more productive than securing and guarding pools.
Damage to the rec is not the problem, At the start of every mp strat game what happens is a dogfight, invariably 1 team will loose all 4 scouts and have to build some more after the commander has a few scavs out, if the other team then mine their rec, with mines that last 10 min and keep doing it (they will) all the empty scouts, pods etc that the dogfight loosing team makes will be damaged or destroyed, and they WILL loose the game. 30 sec is short enough for the mine to expire before the campers can return to lay some more mines, the harmless expire explosion enables a pilot to shoot it without causing to much damage.
Weapons available at the start of the game need to be wimpy.
I agree with 2 sheds, mines were not powerful as in version 1.2, but they were powerful enough to be useful as a somewhat rarely used scout weapon in DMs (where the enemy is not affected much by VIR, ie: doesnt use shadowers and targets/watches radar). A longer life would be useful but maybe only if it lasted 50% longer as opposed to twice as long or more than twice. Sure it would prevent laying long-lasting minefields and lower 'realism', but that at least lowers the chance that the weapon will be exploitable.
I was also going to propose an alternate version of the assault AT and SP stab weapons (with grenade physics -- the AT stab better vs light units whereas the SP would be stronger vs buildings) but I found a bug in the way assault tanks use the weapons. If you tell an asstank to attack an enemy and that enemy is obstructed by terrain then the tank will refuse to fire (instead, trying to point upwards to no avail).
You can see this bug for yourself by downloading this test version of the SP-Stab (A) (http://www.bzuniverse.com/~zeroangel/misc_files/SP-Stab.zip)
Pretty sure that's been fixed in 1.3.
How about mine upgrades? That way you have the wimpy mines at the beginning, but can get better ones as the tech increases.