I always wondered ever since this game came out, is it possible, to use the game.cheat bz codes in multi?
If so could you please explain.
And is there a way you can chat in bz2 via mic, without getting ventrilo.
To chat in MP you must either type or use 3rd party software.
There is something called MP editing, that only works PRE 1.3, BUT, it is HIGHLY FROWNED APON and a tightly kept secret.
Cheating in multiplayer is a huge breach of gaming ethics, so, don't!
Now, I know how to MP edit, and when I do it (rarely) I mark the game all over as "EDITED". That is how I squeak by the whole "gaming thics" thing.
No, none of us will tell you.
Quote from: Nielk1 on February 03, 2008, 02:12:16 AM
To chat in MP you must either type or use 3rd party software.
There is something called MP editing, that only works PRE 1.3, BUT, it is HIGHLY FROWNED APON and a tightly kept secret.
Cheating in multiplayer is a huge breach of gaming ethics, so, don't!
Now, I know how to MP edit, and when I do it (rarely) I mark the game all over as "EDITED". That is how I squeak by the whole "gaming thics" thing.
No, none of us will tell you.
Thats pefectly fine I just always wondered if there was a way
If there is, its not commonplace. Sometimes people throw around accusations of aimbots and ODF editing, but they are usually facing an elite player who has earned those skills.
The two known cheats involve editing a map in multiplayer (does not work if everyone starts at the same time) as well as the commander putting any weapon on any ship that they make. These are usually both obvious and easy to spot, and will never (as far as 'reasonably never' goes) happen in a vet game. In version 1.3, none of the known cheats will work.
There is one I forgot. You can sneek onto the AI team in MPI, but at the cost of many resyncs.
What is this about commanders placing any weapon on any ship?
ODF editing was realy a BZ1 thing I think.
Quote from: Nielk1 on February 03, 2008, 06:27:56 AM
ODF editing was realy a BZ1 thing I think.
now you just get bad assets
I cheat in MP all the time.
thats it!!
(puts RDs name on 15th page of hitlist) :evil:
Oh and there's also the ability to crash a game. (Pre 1.3). Not a cheat, but still it's like an uber kamikaze kill everything thing that ruins the game in the process and causes an AV.
Well, cheat in a fun kind of way. I added some code to the FE MP DLL that rapidly teleports them all over the map like a pinball. Bing...Bing...BingBingBingBing...
Quote from: Red Devil on February 03, 2008, 06:06:53 PM
Well, cheat in a fun kind of way. I added some code to the FE MP DLL that rapidly teleports them all over the map like a pinball. Bing...Bing...BingBingBingBing...
You mean that happens if a player tries to cheat?
Yes, they... Nah, just kidding. :-) Very do-able though. But there are safeguards installed to prevent it.
Hey you forgot the double-triple or more bomber cheat (I dont know if its been fixed in 1.3)
Hovering is considered an 'abuse', or at least it was 4 years ago when I played.
ODF editing is really easy... you just have to know what you can edit. I once played a game with TS and he had a whole bunch of ODFs edited, and there were no resynchs or problems.
And in 1.2, you can equip ANY weapon on ANY ship with hardpoints. Trust me, when you see a scout with dual ARCs then you say "something is wrong here".
Dont get me started on hovering scouts with the 'bomber' weapon. That's just mean.
All known cheats have been fixed in 1.3.
I've never seen the thing with scouts equipping a bomber weapon. AFAIK you can put a weapon on a ship, but to dispense an object (bomb) you need to create a dispenser class weapon ODF to do that. I imagine you could do so locally then use the 'equip any weapon on any ship' cheat to have the dispenser equipped. Problem would be that the weapon would only work for the person using the cheat because only they would have the newly created ODF.
QuoteHovering is considered an 'abuse', or at least it was 4 years ago when I played.
Not so anymore, the ZST maps use level 3 AI turrets which are considerably more difficult to hover kill, and hovering has become rather accepted among the 1.2 ZST stratting community (instead of before where there was quite a division of pro/anti hover advocates). In stock 1.2 maps it was different since turrets were so clueless that as long as you were moving (even very slowly) in the air they couldnt hit you.
Hovering is an exploit in the game engine's code which was corrected by the developers. If you really lack the strategic skills to take out turrets and towers using your support units, than stick with DM.
Be carefull with creating 'new' ODFs when cheating. If you created mycheat.odf while no one else has it, you can easily cause the game to crash leaving a nice "Can't find mycheat.odf" in the logs of the other clients.
Just update to 1.3 to squash out these cheats, exploits and crashes. And if you do find someone who seems to be cheating, you can always tell 1.3 to block that person's IP/Network. (Got to love ACLs)
I would love to know how to do these. I think you guys know my reputation and will trust me. If you want to tell me how to do any of these, I will go put it in my information archive for eventual release on my wiki (which will only be put up when the community will allow it).
Okay, here goes- *is shot*
Well in order to put any weapon on a ship you have to first..
*gurk*
QuoteIf you really lack the strategic skills to take out turrets and towers using your support units, than stick with DM.
That isnt a viable option considering how different the mechanics of strat and DM are. If you played more, you would understand this.
*senses that you might be trolling*
*fails to be annoyed*
In 1.2 and before, hovering and ghosting are considered "skills" that take years to prepare and master. Because everyone can do it, the game isn't considered unfair. Most "vet" players are too impatient to build 30 walkers to charge the enemy base and kill a few gun towers. They like to end games quickly and in a more hands-on fashion.
If you try to build a massive force, vets will figure it out after they see maybe 3 tanks in your base (Walker would be painted immediately) and the enemy Factory would be gone in a matter of seconds.
Yes it's bad, but the speed and freedom makes you feel happy inside.
My butt. There is no satisfaction in the quick kill, there is no thinking involved, no strategy, just reflexes. Go play Unreal or Quake for that.
reflexes are not important in bz2 - pity ---- but they will be in my mod!!! :evil:
And yet so many treat it like reflexes are. Screw flying around, let's get some good ground-view epic rts battles going on, now those are satisfying.
QuoteMy butt. There is no satisfaction in the quick kill, there is no thinking involved, no strategy, just reflexes. Go play Unreal or Quake for that.
Its not just about reflexes, but reflexes and tactics. As the commander you of a vet strat you gotta prioritize strategy towards Resources, Defense, or Tech and your skill at managing these are still a factor as a commander, and as the commander you are still the most important part of a team -- twice as important in value as a single wingman (i've developed calculations for this, the commander is numerically twice as important as a wingman of equal skill under conditions where morale is equal). Commanders can resort to a multitude of tactics outside of the standard tech/defense balance including ratting the field and giving scouts lasers, ordering 'pools hard!' to deny enemy of all pools at expense of dogfighting, predicting dogfights and managing scavs there, attempts to UG/GT secondary pools and turret spam, planning a rush, etc.
A wingman must always use correct tactics. Contrary to what non-strat players believe BZ2 winging is about more than having a big DM around the setting of two bases -- it is about managing teams and having them work together and use the correct tactics -- because no matter what it is important to get the commander resources since this determines how fast the team is able to tech up. Teamwork is one of the most important parts of this, strong thugs must cover weaker thugs, and any wing may resort to various tactics including distraction, dogfighting, pools/scavs hit, or base hit.
This differs very much from a DM as there is no teamwork involved, no cohesion, no tactics. A team which does not hit pools and spends all day dogfighting for example will find that the enemy team gets tech first. When I command a strat, I always ensure to pick the teammates who will work the best as a team. Those who want to spend all day dogfighting instead of getting me pools and playing smart can be on the other team.
The game mechanics are a little simpler than the commander-centric version that the non-players are pushing (ie: this should be an RTS), but they arent as exaggerated as they make it seem.
Quote from: OvermindDL1 on February 05, 2008, 09:27:46 AM
And yet so many treat it like reflexes are. Screw flying around, let's get some good ground-view epic rts battles going on, now those are satisfying.
You ever play Kingdom Under Fire: Heroes for the X-Box? If first person RTS battles are what you want this will definitely tickle your fancy.
This is exactly one of those great conversations that gets started and either devolves into flame wars or is shut down by an eager Admin thinking it's about to devolve into flame wars.
As long as everyone stays rational and polite I love these conversations.
Now, as I've said many times EVERYONE sees this game in a different light. To me it's about story, and setting, and is an RPG. I finally, after many decades, get to join Armstrong on the moon, and then as a bonus engage in a sci-fi adventure that would make any good writer of the 50's or 60's proud. I can't tell you how cool that is.
For others it's the coolest RTS they've ever seen, with lots of toys and tech and the ability to be right down there in the trenches with the troops as they fight. For anyone who's ever wished they could be on the hangar deck of the Mothership in Homeworld, or become a DeathKnight in Warcraft (prior to WOW), BZ2 is a dream come true.
BZ1, as a DM centric game and while lacking in teamplay options was still a very cool DM that even those of us past our 'twitching' prime could play. The pace and settings of the game evened the field, and is more of a thinking DM than many FPS games. BZ2 introduces Teamplay, shifts the focus to Strat, but offers up a host of other options too. Race, CTF, Allied Strat, and Team DM are all possible along with a more SP type play in MPI.
Here's the only negative part of this little discourse you'll hear... for some reason the 'Vets' have decided that the only 'true' players are those playing Team Strat. I've said enough on this, and despite their negativity I'll fight to the death to keep THEIR version of the game playable and enjoyable FOR THEM, but nothing I've said has gotten any of them to admit that it's only one small part of the game. Yes, it's the one part of the game you can call up a list of people playing, but that's no reason to insult or disrespect everyone else who loves the game too...
But that's beating a dead horse, which is illegal around here... :)
So, everyone realize, THIS IS A DIFFERENT GAME FOR EVERY PLAYER WHO PLAYS IT, and be thankful that 1.2 is still supported (no forced upgrades like other games). Also be thankful that, especially in 1.3, the game can be all it can be for everyone no matter what part of it you enjoy. I mean how many patch makers out there take care to keep important bugs reproducible just to support an earlier version? GSH did it for 1.3 for several 1.2 bugs, despite all the bad press and personal insults heaped on him about the hovering issues.
It's all good, people, and I think how heated some people get when 'their' version of the game is disrespected or threatened is just a good way of showing how much we all love it. And that's a good thing...
-Av-
I've not played that xbox360 game. I will not get an xbox360 until it is more worth the money, and right now I cannot see it for anything but being a money sink (come on after all, paying for multiplayer? heck, steam offers just about all live does and a lot more in areas, yet it still and should always remain free). Cannot program for it well without paying extraordinary amounts of money. Can't set it up as a decent router when it is not being used. And I certainly do not play enough games to warrant its very high cost. Just the cost of the system, controllers, a decent quality tv, the ongoing monthly cost, etc... it ends up to be a heck of a lot more expensive then my computer, and my computer is more powerful then it in every way, and until that changes I do not see why the money should be wasted. But there are plenty of idiots out there who think otherwise (yes I know people who have it, and live gold, but never play it), and plenty of others who may play enough to warrant the cost, but there is still far more usefulness out of a computer and I am too cheap to waste money like that.
Either way, on a continuing lighter note. I like the strategy, heck if I could turn BZ2 into an fps version of Total Annihilation or Warzone2100 then that would be a near perfect game of that type. As is, BZ1/2 are far too much in the first-person style, player being an 'uber-unit' even with the weakest of units, etc... I would prefer to be a real commander, or a real soldier in it, not this 'god-creature' that can only be defeated by other 'god-creatures'. Being in a TA style, I'd love to be the commander zipping around the base actually building up the basics, then start delegating work to other building units, while the other human player go out and start capturing other metal deposits as I give them some builders and a small force with access to a settable percentage of the metal and energy income. Eventually they would be delegated to various purposes. Have one person focus on raiding and give him plenty of units to help with that, as by himself he would be too weak to be of any use, but by commanding a decent sized army it will be more effective then if it was just that army without him. Have another person focus on holding the defensive line. Have another focus on getting the main attack force built up. Etc... and so forth. That is what I would love, the strategy. Even with a unit being commanded by a player it would not be all-powerful, but rather having that human command his own little platoon would make, probably modest and usually weak platoon deadly in the command of a skilled human. This one-on-one battles are tiring and boring and I still say require no real skill. Yes they require skill, but only for dealing with yourself, and even if you are not that great even AI units are still no real match for you, other humans are the only real challenge and it just should not be that way in my opinion. If you want one-on-one matches, as stated, go play quake or unreal or bzflag or something, give me a real game.
Hence, that is why I like playing MPI against good computers, because they actually do attack with forces that I have to counter with forces, not with a single god-unit. It forces you to actually think (that is until you get too used to the pc, that is why I would like it if humans played that way).
Hmm, thought of a strategy mutator gametype for BZ2, perhaps have any unit that is commanded by a human have its max health and ammo be an eighth (or some other configurable amount) of what it normally is, forcing humans to actually build up forces. Doubt anyone would play it, too many fps'ers here who do not actually care about good gameplay.
EDIT: And sorry for the rant, a bit sick so far less inhibited then normal...
I agree with you Avatar that the game has several diffrent ways of being played. What I never liked was when I went to play a good Strategy game (aka, 1-2 hour game), I often was smacked with a 15 minute game due Rushing, Hovering over bases with Motor Bikes and other player based exploits that made the AI completly useless. I'm simply saying, if you only want to run around blowing anything and everything up using super cool player manuvers, go into a DM game, let those who want to challenge whits play in ST.
As for hovering, I simply want people to stop trying to justify it as a 'skill'. It was declared an exploit by the developers, end of conversation. If you can't live without that explit, by all means, stay in 1.2 and face all those annoying bugs and intential chat line crash exploits.
I like playing strats and building massive forces to attack from unusal vectors. If I make an APC, its moved to a staging point, and Archer, the same. I make attack groups, position them, and attack the enemy from all sides.
I call that strategy, and I find it fun when the other player notices and trys to thwart the attack. Battlezone is a game about team play and strategy. If in DM your just twitching and clicking, your doing something wrong. Plan, set traps, work togeather, these are what I view as the way to play.
I hate flyers BTW... I start a game, they come in, and destroy my base before I can lay my 3rd scav. (I normaly make 2 scavs, make a turret, make a scav, and then make more turrets for the pools. This works best with humans finding pools.)
Now back to the point of this, anyone wanna PM me this any weapon on any ship deal? I know how to Fly, MPedit, join AI, etc. Another question, what are these chat line crashes? Is there a way to prevent them without moving to 1.3? Then again, I already moved to 1.3
As has been stated above, pretty much all known multiplayer cheats/hacks/etc... have been fixed in 1.3.
Then there's Talons...
and Draths...Dreads...Monsters...Alien Artifacts...sniping bots...hungry animals...Krahanos...weapon countering...
Even strat players do not consider DM a 'real game'. The problem with DMs is that there is no system in place to ensure that it is played fair, no counters. In BZ2 DM, it is not uncommon for someone like sly and debug to camp the laser powerups with laser/stings (because the powerups take so long to spawn) or to fly around the map killing two low hp units who are having a duel in the sake of 'owning'. Only strat is a regulator of fairness because each team must stick together, and the defenses (in FE and in ZST) actually have some strategic value. Sure you still get campers and people who kill the first scavs but one of the reasons why 'vet strats' are so restricted to known players (and that the current team picking system is in place) is to prevent that from happening, or to prevent teams from being stacked. Strats have rules (ie: no camping, no human mortar bikes, no stuff in stuff) and built in systems to prevent unfairness from happening so that your skill has an effect rather than having your score determined by how dirty you play.
I agree with Avatar when he says that everyone sees the game in a different way. Some people will always favor MPI because it is more strategic than tactical and theres nothing wrong with that despite what some of the more elitist 'strat is the only real game' vets will say. The way I see it ST will always be more tactical and MPI (as well as 1v1 ST) will always be more strategic -- and this is a darn good design of the game because it satisfies most of the players who are really interested in BZ2.
Quote from: SonicAs for hovering, I simply want people to stop trying to justify it as a 'skill'. It was declared an exploit by the developers, end of conversation. If you can't live without that explit, by all means, stay in 1.2 and face all those annoying bugs and intential chat line crash exploits.
*Please* dont turn this into a flame war. I have a far different opinion on this matter than you do, and you asserting your opinion so brazenly *again* and for the millionth time, tempts me to want to tell you off. Obviously, i'd rather this be discussed among civil adults and not like a bunch of hard headed fools.
but he's right though...thats exactly what most vet "noobs" will do, stay in 1.2 so they can hover. Some people arnt good enough at strat to win a game without using the hover trick to kill enemy defences/power/recy. its kindof sad...
Thank you, ZA, nicely stated.
As to hovering, flying, infinite whatever you want to call it, the ultimate answer to the entire issue is that, under 1.3, you can recreate 1.2 physics well enough to please most everyone if you want to.
And of course you can still run 1.2 as well as 1.3, I've got eight installs going right now with no troubles in any of them.
I usually get tired of a game in a matter of weeks. Often I go back to a game I haven't played in a while and replay it on my next system, just to see if on better hardware (HOMEWORLD). Sometimes I go back to a game every now and then (HALO) because I truly enjoy playing it. Many games I've played through but am also keeping on the back burner until I get a more powerful system (DOOM3).
Only ONE game has gone to each and every system I have, and is currently on three here. Only ONE game is worth the HD space to have multiple of installs for. Only ONE game has driven me to learn as much as I have about so many modding topics. Has driven me to write stories. Has caused me to buy stand up arcade machines I have no real room for. Hey, it's even paid for itself over the years.
Amazing, this addiction.
:)
-Av-
As much crap as the vets get, at least they actually play the game. I don't see many of those opposed to flying actually playing this game.
True. I am always messing with the back end.
Wait, that sounded wrong... :roll:
Quote from: Zero Angel on February 06, 2008, 01:28:38 AM
*Please* dont turn this into a flame war. I have a far different opinion on this matter than you do, and you asserting your opinion so brazenly *again* and for the millionth time, tempts me to want to tell you off. Obviously, i'd rather this be discussed among civil adults and not like a bunch of hard headed fools.
Once again, I'm pointing out that it IS an EXPLOIT as declared by the developers. Calling it a skill would be saying grabbing nice script kiddie software and exploiting weaknesses in an old version apache as skill. You can go on all you want with your opinion to why it should not have been called an exploit, but in the end, the decision is not yours, it is the developers.
If you want to continue using 1.2 and use the exploit, thats fine, its your proagitive. I'm simply asking you not to try and color it by calling it a 'skill'. I much rather see "It's a bug that over the years people have found uses for." than to see "It's a skill that anyone can use and counter". It prevents alot of confusion with new commers who can easily get confused when they find they can't perform this 'skill' in an up-to-date and more stable version of Battlezone II.
Quote from: Avatar on February 06, 2008, 02:41:58 AM
As to hovering, flying, infinite whatever you want to call it, the ultimate answer to the entire issue is that, under 1.3, you can recreate 1.2 physics well enough to please most everyone if you want to.
Flying isn't hard to do in 1.3 mods. A friend of mine enjoys bizare MPI games, so I mod in scouts than can infact fly for a brief time. You can't do the infinite flying deal but you can soar clear across the map if you hit the right hills. The down side would be you tend to land in front of one of the AI's super towers. Before you have a chance to know it, you already are soaring via your ejection seat.
Quote from: Commando on February 06, 2008, 02:59:41 AM
As much crap as the vets get, at least they actually play the game. I don't see many of those opposed to flying actually playing this game.
There are these games called 'private' you know. Just because you don't see me in any public games doesn't mean I'm not playing with other people in private games. It's rare, but I do get the occasional chance to have a nice long game with a few of my friends that we actually enjoy.
I agree with Commando, vets do get a lot of crap even though they play more often and are the most skilled players in the game. It would be nice to have them in 1.3, but vets are too impatient to run around the map without ghosting as it takes about three times as long.
Vet players are also simply too impatient to lock down every single scrap pool with 4 gun towers, 3 rocket tanks, and 5 chain turrets to defend them from 10 tanks that the other team might work up.
If you have played a ZST strat, it is quite a rush. Everything happens so fast and follows a particular pattern/system. Taking away 3 things vets love the most (exploits) throw them out of that pattern and into this slow-moving, 30 tanks, attack, fail, leave type of game (or "we need to build two tanks to take out that turret").
I'm not personally taking a side, I'm just trying to allow people to see a bigger picture. I enjoy reading conversations like this.
Sonic, you just seem a bit angry.
Yes, Flying is an EXPLOIT, but it is a skill.
Being a Conartist is to exploit others but it is a skill.
Now, that bit about script-kiddies is an invalid comparison.
Just throwing that out there.
So, what are some other exploits (don't say how to do it in the public forum of course).
What is this ghosting?
I like 1.3 because it forces a STRAT to be played as a strategy game, not a "fly around and kill everything as a super unit" game. 1.3's new options for DM draw me to it aswell.
When I play 1.2, I like "no flying in base" games (except for some mods that make flying an integral part with specialized defence and attack units/buildings).
If you have ever played 1.2 or before, you will notice that your ship is "allowed" to sink slightly into the terrain before it pops back out. You are unable to go through it, so you pop up to the top.
I'm not going to elaborate on how to do it, but ghosting is basically throwing your ship nose first into the ground repeatedly to pop you out of the ground quickly, cycling through the process to speed you up to over 3-4 times faster than your ship should go (or more). There are other ways, but they are much more complicated.
Once you get going even a little over the speed that the ship is suppose to go, the image of your ship will start to lag behind your actual position. This is your "ghost". Your ghost can not hit or be hit by anything including objects, terrain, or weaponry. It literally slides through everything if you manage to speed around objects fast enough.
The ghost has a few purposes in a ZST:
1. Sneaky attacks (Slide around things before your ghost catches up)
2. Easier getaway (Target the ghost or the player position?)
3. Base rushing (sort of scary watching your Recycler die from ships that are still making their way to your base)
4. Simply a side effect of moving fast
Once you get going fast, it gives you quite a good feeling inside that not too many things are able to hit you (except the AI and players who have you targeted) and the speed gives you a feeling of accomplishment.
1.3 took out the ability to sink into the ground (good thing, don't get me wrong) which removes the ability to ghost.
THAT's GHOSTING?
I called that "spring boarding" because I did not know about the multiworld effects.
Nah feared but your close. 1.3 took out the ability to go past your allowed topspeed by using additional sources of thrust (which causes the ghosting bug in 1.2 and earlier) I've noticed ghosting among some people when they are already in the air. Plus, I have never been able to move through scavs, extractors, buildings and even directly through other ships -- though my image might on laggy games.
It used to be called fast running because a person who did this could outrun an opponent who was firing directly at him, because he was using more sources of thrust (by nosing down and using his side thrusters).
Everyone who knows how to utilize his ship's acceleration and handling to its full potential will tend to ghost simply by the way he moves (you can't really know when you're ghosting). Most of the common ghosting is harmless though, the ghosting caused by purposefully invoking lag is the more dangerous type -- though I can count on only one hand the vets who I believe do this.
Experienced 1.2 players rely on their radar and target keys because only these will give an accurate reading of where the enemy actually is.
but without being able to use additional sources of thrust, the game loses some realism elements.
It is good that the ghosting bug is fixed, it was one thing that really ruined the realism of the game, anyone who has a problem with this should just go and find a single player game with an invincibility cheat and play that instead.
Every game has those players who enjoy the adrenaline rush of just GOGOGO, full blast, the whole time.
I used to love those, and in my day it was Quake, and rockets providing the rush.
Not to bring those players down, but you'll find soon enough that your reflexes slow, your eyes dim, and that rush brings on headaches more than adrenaline. You'll also end up with the kids crying, the dogs barking, and the phone ringing. I'm not as good as I once was, but I'm as good once as I ever was... :)
You'll also, hopefully, after a decade of just runrunrunkillkillkill look for something a little slower paced, a little more strategic, a little less dependant on you being superman and everywhere at once. It'll happen, slowly but surely, faster for some and then there are the odd people here and there that never grow out of it.
That's why I love that BZ2 can provide a rush for those players while at the same time swing all the way back over and be almost an RTS for others. Show me how Tribes2 can support that without major modding, or UT, or the other way around where Starcraft could give a twitch player a rush... IOW there are next to no games that can do that. Period.
That's why, as Feared said, the Vets are so addicted to their style of game. I sympathize with that and really don't want to see them shut off from their fix, but they need to understand that the whole point of a beta test is to TEST things, and that it's not a crushing thing to see the game change. In the end 1.3 can give them all they want, if they want to set it up that way.
And that's a bad thing, that most of the 'Vets' are NOT modders and so feel helpless to restore those parts of gameplay that they love. Many people complain that 1.3 is a modders patch, but they're not seeing the whole picture. Every game in development is basically clay in the hands of people that are trying to mold it into something. It's not over until it's over, and it's up to the modders to help the 'Vets' by getting the game set up as much like 1.2 as needed.
'Course, they'll need the help of the Vets to do that... and the Vets are not only NOT patient type people but have spread a lot of bad blood around in the past... :(
-Av-
Quote from: Nielk1 on February 07, 2008, 03:59:04 AM
Yes, Flying is an EXPLOIT, but it is a skill.
If we want to take that logic, we might as well call Multiplayer Editor a skill, or perhaps bypassing the asset checker as well. Those must be skill because you have to figure out what keystrokes, procedures and what not are needed to achieve the results. OOOH, how about someone writting a small program that goes out to gamespy, looks for all 1.2 games, join them long enough to send the chat crash to them and repeate the process. And to really drive the players insane, we can program it to run off of proxies. That's a skill right?
Quote from: Sonic on February 07, 2008, 06:41:20 PMOOOH, how about someone writting a small program that goes out to gamespy, looks for all 1.2 games, join them long enough to send the chat crash to them and repeate the process. And to really drive the players insane, we can program it to run off of proxies. That's a skill right?
Bah, that would take me all of like... 5 minutes to make, not at all joking. Why, has someone made it?
1.2's too slow and too tame for me now.
Something about zooming 50..150m over hill and dale at 70..90 kph with 5 unshakeable killer bots on your tail just..."makes me want to SHOUT!, OHHHH YEAAAAAH!, OHHHH YEAAAAAH!...." :lol:
Hmmmm.... *wonders if he can make them the prey and run away...*
Quote from: Sonic on February 07, 2008, 06:41:20 PM
Quote from: Nielk1 on February 07, 2008, 03:59:04 AM
Yes, Flying is an EXPLOIT, but it is a skill.
If we want to take that logic, we might as well call Multiplayer Editor a skill, or perhaps bypassing the asset checker as well. Those must be skill because you have to figure out what keystrokes, procedures and what not are needed to achieve the results. OOOH, how about someone writting a small program that goes out to gamespy, looks for all 1.2 games, join them long enough to send the chat crash to them and repeate the process. And to really drive the players insane, we can program it to run off of proxies. That's a skill right?
Anyone can multiplayer edit by following a set of steps. These rote -easily memorized 'skills' are not skills in the sense that competence or street fighting is a skill. Anyone with working arms can throw a punch, but not everyone can beat Royce Gracie in the octagon. The way that vets fight requires one to continuously practice and fine tune their skills.
Flying for example, could be learned with a couple of hours of practice in stock 1.2 and anyone could crush a base that doesnt have GTs. In ZST, only about half of the vets will do a half-decent job of attacking bases, everyone else -- even mid to low vets -- gets blown out of the sky because they have not put the DEDICATION forward to fine-tune their skills. Those with ego who are too lazy to do this will stomp their feet and demand that the world change for them.
You must understand, that people who put dedication into learning something do not take too kindly to the fact that that element is removed. THIS is why this argument always becomes so heated. And why it is always so pointless to bring up this argument again, like you have Sonic.
Also, I recall one time arguing the finer points of computing with someone who doesnt know how to use a computer well. This amused me that this person had such strong viewpoints when they really knew nothing of it but bullhoot. I had thought, 'what an ignorant noob'. You see a noob and an ignorant noob are different people -- like the thug who never commands lecturing his commander because their team lost. :wink:
Quote from: Zero Angel on February 07, 2008, 05:26:37 AM
I've noticed ghosting among some people when they are already in the air. Plus, I have never been able to move through scavs, extractors, buildings and even directly through other ships
The GHOST can pass through things. The player wont be able to pass through a thick object no matter what :-)
If you go around that object fast enough, your ghost wont follow you around that object if it is too far away. It will simply go through it.
I didn't know about the thruster thing :-o I thought it was just the ground pushing you back.
Haha, learnt somthin' new.
Quote from: Zero Angel on February 07, 2008, 07:22:21 PM
Those with ego who are too lazy to do this will stomp their feet and demand that the world change for them.
You must understand, that people who put dedication into learning something do not take too kindly to the fact that that element is removed. THIS is why this argument always becomes so heated. And why it is always so pointless to bring up this argument again, like you have Sonic.
Funny, I recall those who demanded that Flying stay stomping their feet and demand that the world be changed.
And I still don't get your logic, you spend time and effort to learn how to EXPLOIT something that is ILLEGAL in the concept of the game to begin with and than get so mad when the developers actually patch this exploit?
As I said, there are many exploits and bugs in BZ2 v1.2 that will make ruin your fun; like OM said, it would only take 5 minutes to crash every 1.2 game up in gamespy. If you still wish to use 1.2, please, feel free to.
I dont call it ghosting. I did that since back in BZ1, I point my nose down, hold the forward and jump key, and go faster then normal.
In bz2 that causes the ghosting bug unfortunately.
Quote from: Sonic on February 07, 2008, 11:49:39 PM
Quote from: Zero Angel on February 07, 2008, 07:22:21 PM
Those with ego who are too lazy to do this will stomp their feet and demand that the world change for them.
You must understand, that people who put dedication into learning something do not take too kindly to the fact that that element is removed. THIS is why this argument always becomes so heated. And why it is always so pointless to bring up this argument again, like you have Sonic.
Funny, I recall those who demanded that Flying stay stomping their feet and demand that the world be changed.
As I said, there are many exploits and bugs in BZ2 v1.2 that will make ruin your fun; like OM said, it would only take 5 minutes to crash every 1.2 game up in gamespy. If you still wish to use 1.2, please, feel free to.
Good then we have to be thankful that choice still exists.
Supposedly those of us who enjoy this exploit will have the ability to mod it back into 1.3. This is great news, since even in 1.3 choice will still exist -- and it will be the HOST who has final say in whether or not these exploits be enabled through rec variants, DLLs and other modifications. This is as it should be.
Obviously the GSH and Ken cannot please everyone, but if the ability to modify back in oldschool physics can still exist then choice will be preserved and I would love nothing more than to convert all 1.2 players to 1.3 so that there is no longer a rift in the community. There is no need for conflict -- and on this matter, further discussion.
QuoteSupposedly those of us who enjoy this exploit will have the ability to mod it back into 1.3.
You would want to put back in a bug that allowed scouts, but not mortar bikes or other units, to fly up and stay up so that they can attack without fear of other players engaging them? I have played allot of 1.2 vet strat, I know all these tricks, I am glad this bug is gone in 1.3 and that the scout is no longer the "uber" cowards unit. Dog fights are better now that running/flying away does not work quite so well, and now real skill and teamwork are required to engage base defenses in a scout, not just pressing 3 buttons and firing from out of range.
Yes it would have been nice if "the ceiling" was not quite so well defined and was more determined just by physics, but that would probably require whole new game.
They did try to get some of the old physics code back in at some point, but from what I have found on the subject it caused INSANE side effects. Ya know, things randomly blowing up, teleporting around the map, the fabric of reality decomposing.
1.3 will have plenty of options for flying.
If you want any chance of the flying being restored as an option of any kind, Ken is the person to bring it up to. He is the one who fixed the exploit and he is the one in charge of physics. GSH tried, but as Nielk said, caused major glitches. Basically the engine would throw you at insane speeds. If thrown into an object, such as an extractor, the force would kill your scout.
I would love to see an odf option added to [CraftClass] to address this very issue.
[CraftClass]
use12Reverse = false // True enabling 1.2's reverse code
use12Strafe = false // True enabling 1.2's strafe code
Both enabling flying like in 1.2.
Blas-phe-mah! :-o
awww.. dont ruin the bout cmdo..... ZA vs Sonic - at least 15 rounds plz :-D
Quote from: Commando on February 08, 2008, 05:29:41 AM
If you want any chance of the flying being restored as an option of any kind, Ken is the person to bring it up to. He is the one who fixed the exploit and he is the one in charge of physics. GSH tried, but as Nielk said, caused major glitches. Basically the engine would throw you at insane speeds. If thrown into an object, such as an extractor, the force would kill your scout.
I would love to see an odf option added to [CraftClass] to address this very issue.
[CraftClass]
use12Reverse = false // True enabling 1.2's reverse code
use12Strafe = false // True enabling 1.2's strafe code
Both enabling flying like in 1.2.
I get the strange feeling in the web of code that we call BZ2, that would cause far more hell than its worth...
It seems that upward and downward thrust is cut when you reach a certain height above the terrain. It also appears that this limit is for the final vector of total force rather than the individual forward and backward thrust.
I think that if possable, we should be able to get the thrust down back. As it is now, in a 0 gravity map, if you go a tiny bit too high, it is VERY hard to get your ship to come back down. Though a week gravity does seem to account for this.
The way I suspect it is coded is to take the velocity vector and cut off the z axis.
Seems reasonable. I noticed that during testing too.
I once watched Mowerman fly around the Titan DM map in a mortarbike for hours. He'd swoop down and pick up ammo when needed and was pretty much unhittable. OTOH he couldn't really hit anything either, other than mortar the occasional pilot on foot. We were all trying to snipe him and he'd swoop down to point-blank mortar someone if he could see them... that was a blast, sortof the BZ2 version of Stomp...
IOW given how much ammo each ship holds I'm still amazed that hovering a base in a Scout could be effective... even in God mode I can't destroy a whole base with a Scout without endlessly running back for ammo. Weird...
Anyway, there's no need to change anything or bring Ken into it. The only restriction on flying/hovering is that you can't do it literally forever. I have scouts that can stay up almost forever, can arc like crazy, and while yes I'm not a 'Vet' I'm more than willing to work with anyone who'll have me to make the physics as close to 1.2 as possible. After that it's up to the Vets to accept the change.
OTOH as we've said, they're a tight community that already has what they like and a set of rules to avoid the other exploits and crashes, so there shouldn't be a problem with them hanging with 1.2 forever. It's not like anyone's going to disable 1.2 despite some of the inappropriate comments above about 'bot crashing 1.2 games.
I'd really really really like to see that sort of thing REMOVED from this thread, it's not funny and has no real place here... not if we're trying to have a civil conversation AND solve issues rather than just start flame wars and keep the B$ flowing.
Like I've said, the only real problem I've had in the past with the "Established MP Human Strat Playing Community" is the attitude they've displayed. That aside I take their needs and wants seriously and fully support their right to fight for what they love in this game, as I do any fellow BZ addict.
-Av-
From my experience, I think a lot of people like to stay 'in the box'. They don't like to experiment or see change of any kind.
If it makes them venture outside their established routine, techniques, strategies, tactics, whatever, their safety zone feels threatened and it's immediately attacked (kind of like how one of my dogs reacts if he sees something the least bit different).
I'm not sure if it's due to a lack of imagination or just an innate fear of change.
QuoteIOW given how much ammo each ship holds I'm still amazed that hovering a base in a Scout could be effective... even in God mode I can't destroy a whole base with a Scout without endlessly running back for ammo. Weird...
They don't destroy a whole base, they prevent it from ever being constructed, then get tanks and finish it. Maybe 1 in 30 games someone uses an assault tank to take down a base. And yes the commander builds countless pods, even when the bay is built.
A failure by both teams to prevent enemy base construction is known as "a good game" they are fairly rare.
How sad...
In 1.3 I send in AI scouts from at least 2 enterances at a time to stir the enemy up. I also am sure to destroy every scav I find right away.
Doing so makes the game challenging but also ensures that it won't end with only a rec in one base.
Quote
I get the strange feeling in the web of code that we call BZ2, that would cause far more hell than its worth...
We might have three players in 1.3 on a given day. That is on a good day. The 1.2 community is much more active and it adding such a setting would get them to migrate to 1.3, I would welcome it. In the past I was completely against flying, but now that I see most of the anti-flying group has abandoned this game, I'm starting to side with the flyer crowd since they are still around. The side's credibility pretty much left with the group, imo.
I don't feel my bot comments are inappropriate, they simply state the true risks of running 1.2 and what someone could do if they were really bored or really determined. There were already bots that targeted THIS server in the past with individuals who didn't like CmptrWz and other individuals who just joined 1.2 games to crash 'em, so it's not unrealistic that one day someone might pull of this kind of stunt.
This is no diffrent than posting up security advisories that say "Hey, SMF 1.1.3 has has a SQL Injection Vulnerability which allows an attacker to do <blah>".
They're inappropriate in this setting because we're trying hard not to devolve into flames. I'm sure someone will post that sort of remark out of context on a clan board, stating something like "See, they're planning on forcing everyone to go to 1.3 by making 1.2 unplayable" or some such crazy thing. Don't give them that sort of ammunition.
They'd be very appropriate comments in a thread about defending 1.2, as they'd be informative of strategies someone could use to take down 1.2. Here, though, they just throw gasoline on a fire that'll never stop smoldering.
I see them as very similar to Nathan stating "blah blah blah that crashes 1.2 has been fixed" in the changelog. He caught holy hell for that, along the lines of 'what were you thinking writing that???'. Not a good idea...
Anyway, the whole flying thing is a moot point as given their adamant removal of it I can't see Ken (who's MIA again) or Nathan adding it back in as a switch. I think the idea of making a 'Vet Recycler Variant' is a much better solution, as massive tweaking can be done to virtually everything that way as needed to satisfy the intended audience.
-Av-
Not only do I think Scout hovering is dumb, but it also *looks* dumb.
People can call it a 'skill' if they like, but, if that's a skill, then so is wall glitching, G15 macros for BF2, and 'ghosting', which are just ways of exploiting weaknesses in the code to avoid being hit.
People who call it a skill are just fooling themselves, not me.
What's so bad about G15 macros? I agree flying is a bug but from what I read rocket jumping in Quake was a bug too. It was removed in Quake 2 and restored in Quake 3. Removing a bug can be detrimental if the community at large uses it. I'm not saying add the bug back into stock units. I'm just saying a switch to enable or disable said bug would be useful in bringing in the vets.
Quote from: Avatar on February 09, 2008, 12:13:48 AM
I think the idea of making a 'Vet Recycler Variant' is a much better solution, as massive tweaking can be done to virtually everything that way as needed to satisfy the intended audience.
Agreed, after seeing that odf switch I thought about making a subvariant in the SRV mod I was going to throw together a "Vet-mode" variant or something of the like.
I just want them to make it cut positive Z-axis velocity (instead of both) so I can still fly down.
That odf switch was a sugestion, not a real command.
Having a computer issue keyboard commands faster than you are humanly able to isn't playing.
What type of macro do people setup using the G15? I have a G15, but I never really played with the macros.
Quote from: Nielk1 on February 09, 2008, 12:30:59 AM
That odf switch was a sugestion, not a real command.
Really? I remember seeing it in the changlelog also...
I'm pretty shure.
Nope. There is a use12physics for tracked vehicles, but it causes some major bugs which is a prime example of why Ken would be the person to ask.
I think one of the few 1.2 toggles to work right is the targetting.
In my initial comments, I was showing the flaws in ZA's "It's a Skill" argument by pointing out that anyone with programming 'skills' could easily hunt down and cause trouble for BZ2. This isn't just limited to BZ2 though, alot of hackers that hit corporation have skills to do so, but it no longer becomes a 'skill' when they perform illegal operation of breaking in.
As for Nathan, he should post what vulerabilities he has patched in general detail. I've not pointed out how to make a specially crafted string/network packets that crash the game, nor have I giving any code examples on how to make a program to grab Gamespy info, mask itself to look like a BZ2 client and perform network packet exchanges with a BZ2 server.
If 1.2 users try to come out of this and saying we are 'forcing' them to upgrade, they are only kidden them selves. I mean seriously, have you ever looked at a vulerability database? Its like blaiming those who found, posted and fixed an buffer overflow in Apache. People like ZA have been informed of the potential exploits, they assume the risks if they continue to use it. Just as a System Administrator would assume the risk by not updating Apache.
Its probably the avatar, but it just seems like your an angry person... :roll:
Programming is a skill, yes.
So is flying (if you can do it well).
So it playing a nice long and good strat game.
So is walking, though we take that for granted realy.
Eating, eh, even babbies to that :-P
Quote
grrrrrrrrr
- quoting sonic :evil:
im sure that sonic is the most evil person in the whole world - he is hitler's long lost grandson - and he is directly descended from count dracula
PULL YORSELVES TOGETHER DUMMIES!!!!!!!!!!!!
he is just trying to explain the obvious!!!!!!!
it is entirely possible for some lifeless hacker to destroy any 1.2 game!!!!!
GSH has fixed these problems in the 1.3 patches
Q) Why would you continue to use an outdated patch just to be able to jump a ship a bit higher???
A) Because you are a sad critter who cant cope with the notion that you cannot jump high anymore in a game made nearly 10 years ago
GET...........OVER...........IT!!!!!!!!!
(injects 3 tranquliser shots) ZZZZZZZZZZZZzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz ZZZZZZZZZZZZZZzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz
That was not helpful.
Every single time i spam anything... steeveeo is there straight away!!!!
but seriously -- the only part of that which was spam was the last line
the rest is true
Quote from: bigbadbogie on February 09, 2008, 08:00:29 AM
Every single time i spam anything... steeveeo is there straight away!!!!
Its not that Im there whenever you spam, its that you always spam the threads I look at/post in.
sure... :-P
As a part of the evolved bz2 player's strategy (infinite) flying has a detrimental affect on the overall game, but it has evolved, and it is fun!
If Sonic starts to scare you just remember the magic words...
Sit Boy!
:lol:
Just look at Skiing in Tribes. It was a bug in Tribes, so Tribes 2 eliminated it in the beta and the whole group attacked the Devs... so they implemented a reasonable approach to it (light/energy can ski like crazy, heavy can only do it a little) and after release caught so much hell from the screaming minority that they slowly patched it back in. By the time I left, disgusted, Heavies could ski right into your base at Mach 4 just like they could before.
And I still love that game, just am sad that they bowed to the screamers and didn't listen to the more strategy-oriented players.
Still the point is that this is why I feel it's best to provide the options, let the players choose how they want to play the game. That's definitely the best of all possible worlds.
So, if 1.2 physics had been coded in from the beginning as a switch it would have been the best setup, player-wise. As it is now I don't think that's possible, but also don't think it's needed as I think we can mod up something very very very close. Hopefully close enough to make them happy.
We owe it to them to try, at least, but it would require involvement from the target audience... :)
-Av-
Let me get this straight:
1. People don't play in vet games because the vets use Scout hovering.
2. People complain that the few Strat games up are run by vets.
3. Because there are only a few Strat games up, people want to encourage more Strat games.
4. When an alternative to eliminate hovering is introduced, so that more Strat games are up, they want to add hovering to it...
5. People don't play in vet games because the vets use Scout hovering.
6. People complain that the few Strat games up are run by vets.
7. Because there are only a few Strat games up, people want to encourage more Strat games.
.
.
ODD
That only works when your Kagome. :P
As I've commented, my private mod that I made exclusivly for a friend does infact allow you to fly over the map. You can't stay up forever, but you can go great distances. My counter to that though was one-hit wonder towers...not to mention the occasional "Player Killer", aka, a Fury with Helion that exclusivly hunts players. I got my friend conditially reflexed to scream over Teamspeak when he hears a "Cricket" sound. :D
No RD, it's more like we're a small community. I mean meson small... I'm talking looking at quarks and going "WOW, lookit how big those are!".
On top of that extreme smallness we have a game that no two people see as the same game.
Add in a dash of old school players who've developed an almost ritualistic method of playing and you have a very static gaming experience.
So the Vets play the Vets and the rest of us play with ourselves... :evil:
-Av-
that last line gave me an aneurysm :evil:
My point is that trying to please one part of the population winds up defeating the purpose of trying to enlarge the population. Tunnel vision prevents you from seeing the big picture.
*looks askance at Av*
The population isn't getting larger, that is the problem. It is getting smaller. The only way to really enlarge the population, 1.3's anyways, is to compromise with the vets.
They are the ones that are active in the online community. A majority of the anti-flyers aren't even active in the community.
The reason it's getting smaller is because of the use of exploits.
Example:
A new player joins a vet game and they use hovering, ghosting, etc., to make themselves *unhittable* by the new players. The new player, says, "Why bother?", and *leaves*.
It's the same reason that players in BF2 get their stats wiped or banned (wall glitching, etc.), which makes them *unhittable* to a new player.
If you try to introduce that into 1.3, then the status quo is maintained and BZ2 continues to have the small community that it has.
Imagine a BZ2 where no exploits exist, where *everybody* is on a level playing field, therefore encouraging new players to join. Do you think the community will grow?
If not, let's continue doing the same things that we're doing, thinking that things will turn out differently. <== a definition of insanity
hes right
I try to get others in, but they are all glued to their frigen XBOXs...
Hmm. An XBox port of BZ2... Wonder how well that would turn out?
VSMIT.
Quote from: VSMIT on February 10, 2008, 07:09:18 AM
Hmm. An XBox port of BZ2... Wonder how well that would turn out?
VSMIT.
Probably not well, its amazing how it actually runs on the PC through all the coding, it might cause the XBox to turn into a fury and zap you in the foot.
Try opening the in-game editor and the console explodes :-P.
VSMIT.
Quote from: Red Devil on February 10, 2008, 06:36:12 AM
The reason it's getting smaller is because of the use of exploits.
that's one of the reasons I stopped playing online way back when people started dropping turrets in pools etc. that and the bad attitude of the majority of online players ( I think the hoot storm that blew up over the hovering issue is symptomatic of this, any well balanced individuals would have just accepted it and got on with things instead of crying like a bunch of spoilt bitches and ripping the online community to shreds over the issue) , it's all about winning to them whatever the cost and that's just no fun at all, I found it far more fun to make mods in the end.
yeah - i havent played MP forever either
i spend heaps of time on modding now
Quote from: Red Devil on February 10, 2008, 06:36:12 AM
The reason it's getting smaller is because of the use of exploits.
The strat playing community in 1.2 is *not* getting smaller -- in fact the size has been small for the past 3 years and has not really changed. There have been some small changes to the lineups with some players achieving vet status, and others just moving on, but all of us are composed of a community of die-hard players who really enjoy games of BZ2.
Quote from: Red Devil on February 10, 2008, 06:36:12 AM
A new player joins a vet game and they use hovering, ghosting, etc., to make themselves *unhittable* by the new players. The new player, says, "Why bother?", and *leaves*.
It's the same reason that players in BF2 get their stats wiped or banned (wall glitching, etc.), which makes them *unhittable* to a new player.
If you try to introduce that into 1.3, then the status quo is maintained and BZ2 continues to have the small community that it has.
Imagine a BZ2 where no exploits exist, where *everybody* is on a level playing field, therefore encouraging new players to join. Do you think the community will grow?
Ghosting is countered by using something called the
target reticule -- also known as the 'T' key. But you're right, the ghosting glitch adds nothing to the game and should be removed -- it is a side effect of fast running.
Now, lets get to the
real issues here.
-- VETS SNUBBING, WHY IT HAPPENS, AND HOW IT HARMS THE GAME --The newbies that come in are often discouraged by the attitude of many of the vets' "win at all cost" attitude. Teams must be balanced when picking and non-vets simply cannot compete with the vets who have been playing for years -- and they unbalance the teams because a lot of players who have been playing a long time take the outcome of the game really seriously.
In 1.2, this unbalance is the biggest issue. A poor thug on a team is like not even having a player (because he often costs the team more resources then he makes for the team) -- Therefore they have to work hard to become vets before they become welcome into vet strat. This difficulty prevents many new player from sticking around.
-- THE GREAT SKILL DIVIDE --From the new players perspective, "everyone can do all of these maneuvers and why cant I do them?", they either become hard on themselves (i suck at this game) or just deflect it outwards (they just cheat)
The big issue here, why BZ2 isnt growing is NOT about flying.
Its about unbalance among teams and how this unbalance discourages new players from becoming vets. Flying is just a skill that some people don't *want* to learn because they have to work hard to learn how to do it skillfully. This learning takes a huge investment of time -- close to a hundred or more hours of playing time.
Just like Enemy Territory, Counterstrike, Starcraft, or any other game you cant just pick up the game and expect to start owning. It takes lots of dedication.
-- SMART AI, SMART PLAYERS, AND ZST AS THE GREAT EQUALIZER --Speaking of Starcraft -- In its early days it was known as a game where the player could get a quick win off by learning the Zergling Rush (http://www.encyclopediadramatica.com/index.php/Zerg_Rush) and the emphasis of strategy shifted off of the myriad of strategies that one could pull off and instead onto mastering the Zergling Rush. Nowadays most learned players can easily counter the zergling rush.
Look at the difference between ZST and 1.2 for example. In 1.2, pick any 2 vets who have been playing strat for 3 or so months -- they can hover any base into oblivion. In ZST, only a third of the players (who have been playing for a year or longer) can do hover attacks and pull them off well, the other third does a decent job, and the other third are piss poor at it and usually get blown out of the sky. But this is a HUGE difference in contrast to stock 1.2. I think that turret defenses should have a little greater of a vertical turn rate to become even more accurate for countering slow-arcing and turret humping -- but otherwise they do an OK job at countering hover attacks (instead of a non-existent job).
For those who think that this still doesnt require great amounts of skill. I'll even set up a demo for you -- add me to msn ( david_bobb -at- hotmail.com ) and we'll set up a private ZST game where we can practice hovering turrets. If you can kill turrets as anywhere nearly as effectively as I can through a hover attack (and i'm mediocre at hovering ZST turrets) then i'll concede defeat publicly.
That kind of reminds me of a game where you're losing -- for whatever reason. Its easier to blame the other person and cry "my teammates are useless! they dont even stick together!" when you're not the one sticking to your teammates -- like i've done quite a few times. I also recall fighting this guy in DM -- his laser accuracy was unreal and I was so mad that I was losing because I was fighting so hard. I accused him of cheating, using an aim-bot to have such flawless accuracy.
Well there is no aim-bots in BZ2. And immediately after I calmed down, I realized that I was being exactly like one of those whiners that I usually get into arguments with. Well this player was a good guy, and I normally know of him not to use cheats. Apparently he got a new videocard and was capable of achieving more than 30 FPS in a DM as well as playing BZ2 HARD for the month that I was away. :)
Thats kind of how the flying debate is. People always want to blame someone else for their actions because that's the easy path to take rather than looking at how you can get better ("fool me once").
I've gotten rather good at flying, but I also disect the game's physics engine when I am board.
Every game experiences this. Jump into Tribes as a new player right now and you'd be a mouse among supermen. N00bs are openly discouraged from joining games with experienced players, they're told to set up their own games and work their way up to a level where the Vets of that game will even play with them.
It's one of the hardest things to do with an MP game, make it such that a new player isn't smoked so fast they toss the game in disgust, while still allowing experienced players to take advantage of that experience.
In the case of BZ2 I think the small community does work to discourage any new MP players... then again it's not like the game is still on the shelves anywhere. Sure, you can find it if you dig but most 'new' players are people finding iso's or getting copies from friends, etc..
And again, the MP players are the visible players... they're just the ones you can grab a list of online. I hate it when they're pointed at and shown as a measure of the community. OUR community is rarely online and yet I have more time in the game than pretty much any Vet... the same way a mechanic has much more time in/on/under a car than the driver has.
Yet those pretty boy drivers get all the attention... :)
Anyway, bottom line is there's room to both advance the state of the game (1.3) and still keep the old players (1.2). Of course, I"m saying this and I'm also working to make BZ1 available in BZ2... so it's sortof my basic philosophy of keeping the old AND enjoying the new. (I like my cake, and I eat it too).
-Av-
Like ZA mentions, I think it all boils down to the competitive spirit. Some people like to - nay, need to - win at any cost.
To be clear, I don't think the vets who use these exploits are stupid. Just the opposite. That spirit forces them to use their heads to find any weakness and exploit it to their advantage in order to get a win. That is the nature of war.
If they worked for a game company as beta testers, those people would tear a beta to shreds is - which is a good thing.
As for skill, I *want* to be beaten by skill, but not by an exploit. Remember that commercial where these online gamers were being wiped out left and right, then it shows a bunch of SEALS playing them saying, "Like shooting fish in a bucket."?
Well, I remember playing BF2 with some guys once who were heads and shoulders above anyone I had played against before. So I joined them to see how they worked. They were balanced, communicated, organized, and effective and just rolled through everything - with skill and teamwork.
Then we ran into a wall glitcher who killed everything that came near him while holding the flag. Then everybody left...
So that is why using exploits is not good for the game - any game - or the community.
As for what the physics are capable of in 1.3, just ask Av or Commando how the fast Scouts I made (for demo purposes) handled.
I think that BZ1/BZ2 is the very best game ever made. I just want to increase the awareness and participation of it. You can't push people into something. It's a lot easier to attract them and I think that 1.3 will do that.
Imagine seeing pages of games up instead of one.
Wall glitching... is he inside the wall? My rig won't play BF anything... :)
Tribes had the same sort of thing, you could place a turret such that it deployed inside the wall and was invulnerable to anything but splash damage.
Things like that ruin a game quickly, and the Devs have to jump fast to patch it out before losing players.
-Av-
Wall hacks are another issue. Basically using modified drivers that make the walls transparent. Basically allowing you to see through the wall. This was a big issue in Counter Strike and any half-life based game. I don't know if BF had wall hacks or not.
Yes, they did/do.
If you want a *really* good BF2 experience, I participated in testing this SP mod: http://www.aixtended.com/
F117A, all the MIG's, Mirages, A10, all the rifles/weapons and choppers (German Tiger, too) you'd ever want, ATV's, etc. Oh yeah, mortars, incendiary grenades, lots more.
You can also play Co-Op (BF2 MPI).
Oh, I see. There were hacked Invidia drivers that did that, basically skipping the texture fill and giving you a cheating wireframe view you could toggle.
Honestly, some people will do anything to cheat even a little bit... but they're just cheating themselves.
-Av-
I believe AsusTek is the company who released a set of cheat drivers.
Quote from: Zero Angel on February 10, 2008, 09:09:16 AM
The big issue here, why BZ2 isnt growing is NOT about flying. Its about unbalance among teams and how this unbalance discourages new players from becoming vets. Flying is just a skill that some people don't *want* to learn because they have to work hard to learn how to do it skillfully. This learning takes a huge investment of time -- close to a hundred or more hours of playing time.
This is the problem right here, people keep insisting flying is a skill, but its not. It doesn't matter if it takes 100 years to learn how to do it successfully, the fact is it is an EXPLOIT. And lets get this clear, its not an exploit because I say so, it is an exploit because the DEVELOPERS, the people who MAKE THE RULES deemed it an exploit. It wouldn't make sense for NBA Players to suddenly say double dribble is legal when the NBA says no. If the NBA Players don't like the rules, they are free to go off and make their own organization with their own rules.
And just for clarification, I'm talking about stock. When you play a mod, the rules themselves are modified, hence the name "MOD". You want flying, go make a mod and reffer to it as a feature of the mod. Don't go off and try to force change the rules of the un-modded version of the game.
Um, flying is a skill, and an EXPLOIT.
My rational:
Fraud can be a skill and it is an exploit.
I remind you, I hate flying...
Quote from: Sonic on February 11, 2008, 03:45:12 AMWhen you play a mod, the rules themselves are modified, hence the name "MOD". You want flying, go make a mod and reffer to it as a feature of the mod.
Which brings us back to the 1.2 Recycler variant which could be the solution...
Quote from: Nielk1 on February 11, 2008, 04:23:42 AM
Um, flying is a skill, and an EXPLOIT.
My rational:
Fraud can be a skill and it is an exploit.
I remind you, I hate flying...
Yes and No I guess. You could call it a skill being able to do the exploit, but the the exploit itself isn't a skill. Skills are usually seen the ability to contribute positively. Breaking the rules isn't seen as contributing positively.
I keep hearing this Recycler Variant thing, but non of those who are pro-flying appear to actually be making one, nor do they appear to be asking nicely to those who do know how to mod to make one for them. And even with variant, you won't get the infinite hover stuff back, nor do I see GSH/Ken spending time adding an exploit back into the game to satisfy those who can't play by the rules.
If they want to keep using the exploit, they can stick with 1.2 and all those bugs that come with it. They know the risks and limitations, they just don't need to be confusing potential new players by proclaiming an exploit is a valid skill.
Quote
It is an exploit because the DEVELOPERS, the people who MAKE THE RULES deemed it an exploit. It wouldn't make sense for NBA Players to suddenly say double dribble is legal when the NBA says no. If the NBA Players don't like the rules, they are free to go off and make their own organization with their own rules.
Logical fallacy.
The NBA players make money for the NBA, who then pays them -- the NBA player is an employee of the NBA management, enforced by the ability of the manager to fire bad players and recruit ones who are willing to play by the rules.
Battlezone 2 players play for themselves and for each other -- they do not owe the developers any thing. They already paid the developers what they owed when they bought the game.
Anything which the developers add afterwards is completely up to them. If they are doing it out of altruism and the goodness of their hearts, and the players like it then they deserve thanks at the least and whatever good feelings they get from helping their 'baby' to survive (because I imagine if they did stick around to help, its because they are proud at least to some extent).
If the developers want to remove flying, fine, but its not a course of action that I would recommend because it will mean less players playing the creation which they invested so much blood, sweat and tears into.
QuoteIf they want to keep using the exploit, they can stick with 1.2 and all those bugs that come with it.
Sounds good to me, not ideal, but acceptable. -- Ideally, 1.2 vets will move to 1.3 anyways because its improvements (removal of alt-tab, AV and ghosting bugs) outweigh its drawbacks. I'm just saying that flying, air-maneuvering, fast-run enabled, and responsive ships are important to many of the die-hard 1.2 players -- enough that that their loss could *possibly* be a deal breaker. We cannot know for certain what the final outcome would be, but the worst case scenario involves the BZ2 community dying a slow death as 1.2 vets gradually leave alltogether and the amount of games in 1.3 stays the same (virtually nil). The best case scenario is everyone moving to 1.3 and being able to determine the parameters of the game they host.
Well, the hovering definitely isn't coming back, but it's easy as heck to make a a Scout that comes and goes like the wind. The one I use to test in FE can jump/fly half way across Mega Mountain (3500 meter map) while doing acrobatics in the air .
I've even posted them here about a year or two ago. :roll:
You could always put forward firing jetpacks in. Or upward firing ones.
That will induce flying... Reverse thrust jet pack special.
The whole skill/exploit issue is another one faced by developers, as no beta team regardless of how good they are can find all of the holes, or exploits, or loopholes that WILL be discovered by thousands of bored kids pecking away at the final game.
Again, I'll use Tribes as an example but this time it's the OOB issue. Tribes terrain repeats over and over, flipped and mirrored, endlessly stretching off to the horizon. This puts the play area inside an infinte world.
Going Out Of Bounds returned the flag to it's team, but without the flag it just gave you a warning buzz, so some players added it to their arsenal of tricks. Sniping from OOB, sneaking up on bases that way, setting up mini-camps to resupply attack waves, etc..
SO, some players felt that the warning buzz meant the Devs didn't want you going OOB, and added a slow death pulse to being OOB on their servers. The argument about that went on forever...
In Tribes 2 the Devs added a giant grid that appeared when you approached the OOB area, AND the flag still went back to the pedestal. A little more nudging but still didn't finish off the issue.
See? There are always going to be controversial issues that the Dev's don't want to get heavy handed about. As long as the resolution of an issue, or enforcement of controversial points, is in the hands of the players most Dev teams are willing to leave them be. It takes a very strong issue, or something that was considered a failure at release, to get most Devs to step in and change something along these lines.
-Av-
I must comment that the removal of the ability to fly does seem a bit tacky. I've made a series of super units that use weapons that would AV 1.2. When I first started using these units in 1.2, they were highly maneuverable in the air. In 1.3, their engines pretty much shut off when trying to fly in the air, which, to me, is weird behavior.
just allow flying in SP but not MP!!!!!!!
Quote from: Zero Angel on February 11, 2008, 12:59:37 PM
Logical fallacy.
The NBA players make money for the NBA, who then pays them -- the NBA player is an employee of the NBA management, enforced by the ability of the manager to fire bad players and recruit ones who are willing to play by the rules.
Wrong. It doesn't matter if the NBA pays the players or not, the whole point is the NBA games have rules, just like Battlezone 2. The developers make the rules, not the community, and like any software based games, the rules have to be updated to include exploits that players have found over the years that go against the concept of the game. Inf Flying goes against the concept of the game, it has been marked as an exploit, it is not a skill. DEAL WITH IT.
Wow. You guys are still arguing about this... and yet you know its not going to change. I'm not going to say whether I'm against hovering or not but, really, what's the point of all this arguing about what should have been done?
And for all you people who miss hovering in 1.3, if any of those ideas suggested above work, why not make a mini-mod incorporating it and maybe elements from ZST. If it works well enough at replicating hovering, you might even convince some of those 1.2 zst vet players to come over to 1.3.
That's pretty much been the idea for a long time, to make a 'Vets Recycler' that duplicates 1.2 physics as much as possible. In fact, some of the 1.3 fixes for 1.2 bugs are reversible by design, to help this effort.
Thing is it's going to take effort on both sides, the modders and the Vets, to get it the way it should be. It's not enough to just put some of the numbers back in place, things have changed to where it'll take some tweaking to get things right.
-Av-
fan-bloody-tastic
probably because of this stupid argument CmptrWz is scrapping half the
boards on the forum including the bz1 section!!!!!!!!!!
he said it was the attitude of all of us here that he is getting sick of!!!!!
This thread? Nope. Not a problem.
The arguments that stem from some of the topics touched on in this thread, that have been around for years now?
Perhaps.
Or perhaps it is because most of the "community" appears to have wanted the game THEY found fun, period, no exceptions, "why was anything else even put IN the code!?" to the point where I, personally, no longer found playing fun.
Think about it.
I've known this was comming for a while now. Count yourself lucky though, I thought it was going to be alot worse than this.
People should start playing online more. All games will get old after a while. Everyone grows out of playing them. I see maybe 30 people on BZ2 at one time (maybe around 150-200 ACTIVE players throughout the ENTIRE game). On this site I see some of those players and more who don't even play.
Of course you're going to have issues with snotty players with a bad sport. The easy solution is to leave and find another game. That's what I've done for years.
You can't call a game "not fun" if you don't even play it.
As for the site clean-up:
I'm glad this site and BZScrap is staying. Maybe some guys can come up with a BZ1 site to replace the BZUniverse forum. I DO count myself lucky.
There are more people playing Tribes2 on a single server each night than in all of the BZ2 games. I think of this when I want to regain my perspective...
It's to the point where I just think it's funny. Think about this:
Basically anyone currently playing 'Vet' 1.2 BZ2 has totally blown off working on 1.3. Yes, they complain about it when it comes up and they all have various reasons but in the end the 'Players' have blown off the patch.
Anyone currently worknig on 1.3 is generally considered a 'modder', not a 'real' player. Sorry if I insulted anyone right now, this is all IMHO and not how I personally view anyone here. I bow to many when it comes to MP knowledge, I am but an egg...
So basically you have the die-hard 1.2 players who are pretty much trapped with 1.2 until either Gamespy drops support, someone targets them with a massive attack using known vulnerabilities, or they get tired/old and wander off.
The only hope for a future the game has is 1.3. 1.2 is not growing, certainly not in any way that anyone can see, and since 1.3 allows pretty much any type of gameplay you're willing to put the work into making, it's the only thing that'll be capable of supporting whatever anyone wants to play it as...
OK, that's a bit of a circular argument, "they'll play it because it'll be what they play" but it's still valid. 1.3 can adapt, 1.2 can't.
So take all the controversy with a grain of salt and keep on doing whatever part of this game you do because you love it. Ignore the doomsayers and depressing, closed minded, scared, defensive, old-school attitudes and just be yourself.
Works in most of life's situations, btw...
-Av, waxing philisophical before coffee-
besides, in pb4 flying is possible, at host's discression.
Most people like to find a comfort zone and, once they find one, like to stay there because, well, they feel comfortable.
The vets that play 1.2 have found their comfort zone and I, for one, don't have the right to tell them how or what to play any more than I have the right for them to tell me to play 1.2. Personal freedom and all that. I may not agree with them using exploits or whatever, but I also have the choice not to participate.
Wz has the personal freedom to host or not host this site. Especially if he is paying for it out of his own pocket. We all owe Wz a debt of endless gratitude for hosting BZ2 for these many years.
One of the main purposes of 1.3 is to fix the hovering exploit, so to add it back in there defeats the porpoise. You'd just have hovering and ghosting, etc, exploits back in 1.3 and that would discourage growth in the BZ2 community.
The fast Scouts I made were mainly a stress test for warping and a proof that 1.3 physics weren't stuck in the released PB3 state, but are completely adjustable. They don't - can't - hover.
Av, do you always have to be so negative?
"-Av, waxing philosophical before coffee-"
First of all, you should know by now that the porpoise hates to be defeated. He's going to find you, it's what he does...
:lol:
Agree completely about the wiz, he's a freaking saint that boyo is...
:)
What negative? Those are my stripes... they just look like minus signs... someday I'll get a promotion and then it'll be:
=Av=
:lol:
:lol:
Here's your real rank:
**** Av ****
This is only what, 2 weeks old? :P
Decided to come back now that I have a bit more free time. Just finished reading this thread too. Everything I could have to say has already been said before, with one exception.
@Sonic (and everyone): You say, more or less, if you don't like the physics stay in 1.2. The problem is, everyone did just that. Most 1.2ers don't even care about 1.3 anymore, they would have quit this game long ago if they were so put off with all the problems. The few who care are here and we want the best of both worlds. When we try to help we are only shouted down. You can call flying whatever you want, but every time someone comes into 1.3's built in IRC and asks how to play online with my only answer being make a second install. That's the few times where I am actually there, mostly I'm just reading the backlog after I get home. If I could play 1.3, if there were people available to play a strat, I would. I have, but it's stupid. They have no idea to play and I get bored.
That's it really, if I have something wrong please point it out.
Oh, one other thing, if there are so many "private" 1.3 games, would anyone care to invite me? I can be quite civil and do enjoy walker fleets. Please?
I will kindly ask you not to resurrect this argument -- for the sake of all of our sanity.
You're right about the private 1.3 games. Most of the servers I see in 1.3pb3 are locked down or password protected (i'm not talking about the private beta games here -- which are marked version 1.3a). Generally vets who are at least open-minded to 1.3 can be trusted not to bring attitude into the game. Its the noobs who are problematic (and i mean this in all sincerity -- from experience not ignorance), since many of them quit and rejoin for ships, keep MSN open and then get tabbed out -- flatlining all the rest of the clients before lagging out, charge into defended bases then spam about needing ships, never listen/use scavs/attack pools, and many of the other things that they don't yet understand interrupts the flow of the game.
With a good enough commander you can still win with two of the thugs killing each other with gun towers. That was a fun game :D