Hi Guys...I'm kinda new here... and I'm here to share a little bit about what I'm currently doing, hoping to be able to get some support from the BZ Community.
I'm currently working for a Malaysian-based IT Company that has recently been involved in games development. So we're actually going to develop a game that is inspired by BZ. The IDEA have been approved, however, the project has yet to commence as the funding have not yet been disbursed and the team fully staffed. Therefore as a Game Designer for this team, my current task is to create prototypes and some pre-production stuff so that when the team comes in it will speed up things. I won't go into lengthy details here.
Basically, What I'm thinking now is, is there anybody here that wants to help us create prototypes for this game, just on hobby basis. Benefit is that, this prototype will be released to the community here to play when done. However do take note that this will be a commercial game, therefore the full game cannot and will not be released here as it will get me into trouble
We'll be probably building the prototype on a different engine that our actual game, so chances are, the prototype can be made into another smaller free version of the game ( which should probably differ heavily from the actualy game in terms of content )
So I want to know what do you guys think. So far here are some work done. Apart from it, we quite a large portion of our design document all written up, so it's pretty much implementing it.
(http://i103.imagethrust.com/t/798089/tempbases.jpg)
http://i103.imagethrust.com/images/3lCp/view-image/temp-bases.html (http://i103.imagethrust.com/images/3lCp/view-image/temp-bases.html)
(http://i119.imagethrust.com/t/798090/tempchars.jpg)
http://i119.imagethrust.com/images/3lCq/view-image/temp-chars.html (http://i119.imagethrust.com/images/3lCq/view-image/temp-chars.html)
(http://i111.imagethrust.com/t/798091/tempcrafts.jpg)
http://i111.imagethrust.com/images/3lCr/view-image/temp-crafts.html (http://i111.imagethrust.com/images/3lCr/view-image/temp-crafts.html)
(http://i103.imagethrust.com/t/798092/tempvehicles.jpg)
http://i103.imagethrust.com/images/3lCs/view-image/temp-vehicles.html (http://i103.imagethrust.com/images/3lCs/view-image/temp-vehicles.html)
(http://i109.imagethrust.com/t/798093/tempweapons.jpg)
http://i109.imagethrust.com/images/3lCt/view-image/temp-weapons.html (http://i109.imagethrust.com/images/3lCt/view-image/temp-weapons.html)
This game will be like BZ, just that it's more infantry focused, think BZ combine with BF2 ( or Quake Wars).
Most of the assets/models are not fully polished. They came straight from initial brainstorming session we had, which is what prototypes are all about.
I'm VERY excited about this project as it is inspired by BZ2. I'm actually a BIG fan of BZ2 since long time ago, sad thing is nobody plays BZ2 multiplayer over here, but the shocking truth that is that there are still ppl modding BZ2 until now ( which I've only came to find out only last year) .
So post here if any of you are interested to participate in the prototype creation of this game.
p/s On the other hand.. is anyone remaking BZ2 ( exact thing ) on any freeware/demo engine? Neo-Axis looks like a good engine to get this done.
No one is trying to remake BZ2 because as it is, its still undergoing some patching and is still alive and well........... WE jsut make mods.
I really want to see where this goes....... An infantry FPS/RTS, that will be something..... (BTW, BZ2 is basically a Hovertank FPS/RTS)
Also, i dont know why but those models have a sort of C&C feel to them....
Sounds interesting...
Your company have a website?
This is just IMHO, of course...
BZ/BZ2 is considered brilliant by those of us rabid fans still hanging in here, but neither was a commercial success really...
What the public seems to want is Quake-style simplicity for endless, repetative fragging and ownage...
I'm still waiting for a company to make a brilliant, educated, thinking game that I can switch my dependancy to...
-Av-
Those hover craft look like something I used to draw as a kid. So they are very interesting indeed. But UT2004 has a ship almost just like that. It is exciting to think there is another RTS/FPS Action game coming. Hope you get the help you need. I'm not technical enough to make ships, but I'm a big fan of BZ2, so keep progress reports coming.
Don't feel bad if some people feel a little skeptical of this new thing. We've all been told that something like this would be impossible. I think everyone who reads this would experience a little interest, but a little skepticism at the same time.
the project sounds interezante, as long as the essence of battlezone is not lost, that is what it really makes interezante and addictive. Much Luck in your project.!!!! :wink:
The models look nice and I like the idea of having it more infantry based. Makes the vehicles in the game seem more powerful.
I just suggest jets instead of fans... Then you can do cool flame effects.
I always thought a 2 pivot VTOL like those in CnC would work amazingly well.
Put in some little rocket boosters inlaid around the outside of the engines to allow for very quick dodging or jumping when it is flying hugging the ground.
There I go, on about a shiny flying thing.
Things to try to get into your game:
Improved Tap System
More than one person in a vehicle
Co-Op play
And, more than one turret on one craft.
That's it, a few small BZ2 things and a few small improvements. All are really very common in games now though, so I guess I'm not that original.
What is your planned storyline? Or maybe just an outline?
This can help in suggestions since a storyline has major effects on ship design and use.
Bloomin hek mate - if i knew the first thing about making games i would be in in a flash!!!
a bz inspired game is what i live for
Quote from: Avatar on March 20, 2008, 05:54:36 PM
This is just IMHO, of course...
BZ/BZ2 is considered brilliant by those of us rabid fans still hanging in here, but neither was a commercial success really...
What the public seems to want is Quake-style simplicity for endless, repetative fragging and ownage...
I'm still waiting for a company to make a brilliant, educated, thinking game that I can switch my dependancy to...
-Av-
Not all popular games these days are simple fps games that cater to twitch gamers. There are plenty of other popular genres and they all contain games that have reached high levels of success. An infantry based fps/rts could still easily enjoy moderate success as long as they put careful thought into core aspects of gameplay.
For instance, if it is more infantry focused, large bases would probably be a bad idea as they could prove trouble some moving between buildings. To compensate for the slower pace of soldiers (and the inability to quickly move around the map), you might want to add an easily accessible, use-anywhere satellite view for base building.
This looks promising.
Remember that the BZ keyword is scrap. :)
Although you could call it biometal or scrap, you might have to change the name.
Go for biometal and scrap if you can.
Or call it Tubbaware :)
Biometal is already used in real science, so I don't see that it's a term that would be considered legally bound to the game...
-Av-
Quote from: anomaly on March 22, 2008, 12:53:03 AM
Not all popular games these days are simple fps games that cater to twitch gamers. There are plenty of other popular genres and they all contain games that have reached high levels of success. An infantry based fps/rts could still easily enjoy moderate success as long as they put careful thought into core aspects of gameplay.
For instance, if it is more infantry focused, large bases would probably be a bad idea as they could prove trouble some moving between buildings. To compensate for the slower pace of soldiers (and the inability to quickly move around the map), you might want to add an easily accessible, use-anywhere satellite view for base building.
Seems like every game falls a tiny bit short of pulling it all together. They all push the balance too far one way or the other, or leave out the aspects I find compelling (base building, mostly, but some of the control methods like the reticule also). Very frustrating...
Loved HALO, loved HL and HL2, even loved Doom3, loved Homeworld/HW2, Tribes/T2, Planetside, etc.. but while they excelled at what they did they didn't match poor, simple little BZ for holding my attention. :)
-Av-
This is highly interesting. These assets are definitely a start, you might want to make some alternate races as well, but these can be used to work out the gameplay mechanics i'm sure.
I would suggest that you get a solid RTS engine going, then develop first person aspects on to it. One of the reasons that the hardcore players still play BZ2 is because its a highly tactical game, an endless seige and fight where every human player matters -- each player controls the outcome somehow, and the freedom to determine which way you control the outcome is also great. Do you command, and if you command what strategies would you use, fast tech? field emplacement? Do you as a wing hit the enemy's resources and deny him? Do you as a wing seek out other human players and cripple their effectiveness that way? Do you raid their base to distract them? Each choice you make is weighed against the enemy's choice, and the outcome matters.
The tactics of conquering areas of the field, using feints and probes, and the fluidity of the action are all very important. But they would not work without a solid RTS engine to back it up.
On the other hand, one of the failings of BZ2 is its heavy reliance on individual teammates, as its very easy to stack a team if only one player of the other team is deficient. Newbies are often not given the chance to be useful because they are dropped into a battle of soldiers with only a stick (metaphorically speaking), and the commander must pay to re-equip them every time they die. It is not uncommon for a commander with a poorly faring team to spend the entire game rebuilding ships, unable to advance because his wingmen die too quickly.
The other failing is the strong interplay between a commander's progress and a team's progress. If a commander does poorly, then the team cannot advance, if the team does poorly than the commander cannot advance. This heavy reliance creates tension, and many are reluctant to command because of the pressure.
I suggest that you retain the hover ship aspects of it. Hover physics are very important to developing a BZ style gameplay, and without appropriate hover physics, I guarantee you that half of the BZ2 players who are currently playing would not be playing at all.
Just a few things to watch for is all. :-D
Just make it a BZ style game with new and original gameplay features, an extremely compelling storyline with room for addition (like bz has) , fully functional RTS with high level FPS elements, and of course, easy modability and modding support (for me and my gazillion fellow modders)
even if it didnt succeed commercially (very unlikely that it wouldnt), but if it is up to par with the BZ series then, well, just look around here... these games are around 10 years old and still has a fanatical group of followers
That reminds me...
Please do include complete modding support with the game's release. Too many games are released that "post pone" full modding support. They may ship with a map editor but lack tools for modding anything else. I'm seeing more games lately that ship with incomplete modding tools but end up getting expansion packs. I believe the greater part of the the reason for not including full modding control is because developers make more profit by releasing mods of their own in the form of "expansion packs". Really, IMO, development costs are getting higher so they release an incomplete version of the game and add to it. It's a disguise for increased video game prices.
It could be a better idea to have the full range of modding tools available to the public, but allow staff members participate in major modding projects with the community modders and commercialize on such projects.
All that stuff costs money to make, I suspect that you will find that modding "support" follows the success of the game for good reason.
How the game is put together is more important, many games do not get modded simply because their content is protected from it by design.
you honestly think that bz2 would have survived this long if it wasnt possible to mod it?? it would have lasted a few months tops!!
That statement is true. :-)
A while ago i just typed a 4 - 5 page of reply while the i accidentally hit BACK on my keyboard and everything went blank. Lemme try to retype it.
I'll try to reply everything here. Anyway I'm not sure If I'm being misunderstood, but basically, I'm not looking for people to develop the game to end. My company will take care of those, I repeat, I'm just looking for some community hobbyist with some real programming experience to contribute to a prototype ( which we will NOT use in the actual game other than using it for reference ) that will a lot of similarity with BZ.
About the logical design, don't worry, professional work has been done on it. We have defined different workable layers and core layers that will ensure the game will meet both the deadline and core idea ( which is one of the biggest challenge of games development company ) .
Here are some reply ( although some of the reply will not be relevant to prototype, I"ll still talk about it)
Quote from: Nielk1 on March 20, 2008, 09:55:11 PM
Things to try to get into your game:
1)Improved Tap System
2)More than one person in a vehicle
3)Co-Op play
4)And, more than one turret on one craft.
5)That's it, a few small BZ2 things and a few small improvements. All are really very common in games now though, so I guess I'm not that original.
1) What do you mean by TAP? if you mean TAG, it is highly probable that will not allow units to be tagged as we don't expect much chase to be done in this game. We don't have a lot of hovering units. As infantry is a large part of it, stealth should be an important aspect.
2) This is defined in the final removable layers. Which means, technically this feature CAN be dropped if we're far behind deliverables. However, because it's on the final layer, everybody would work hard to accomplish it until we're at least a few months behind deliverable.
3) Definite yes, it's on the CORE LAYER. The layer that the game will not be released unless it's there.
4) same as number 2.
5) don't know how to answer that
Quote from: Nielk1 on March 20, 2008, 09:55:11 PM
What is your planned storyline? Or maybe just an outline?
This can help in suggestions since a storyline has major effects on ship design and use.
Super short summary. PM me if you REALLY want to know the longer version ( the gyst only ) .
Race 1: Humans ( one of the 3 surviving nation )
Race 2: Mutants ( Survivors of a biological warfare )
Race 3: Another faction of Humans ( a group of elite nation that was sent to space as a whole nation to experiment human life factor in space, separated with race 1 due to conflict )
NPC Race : Aliens
Quote from: anomaly on March 22, 2008, 12:53:03 AM
Not all popular games these days are simple fps games that cater to twitch gamers. There are plenty of other popular genres and they all contain games that have reached high levels of success. An infantry based fps/rts could still easily enjoy moderate success as long as they put careful thought into core aspects of gameplay.
Couldn't agree more. That is why we need the prototype. Never test a core idea after game is launched. Even beta is too late. Prototype is perfect
Quote from: anomaly on March 22, 2008, 12:53:03 AM
For instance, if it is more infantry focused, large bases would probably be a bad idea as they could prove trouble some moving between buildings. To compensate for the slower pace of soldiers (and the inability to quickly move around the map), you might want to add an easily accessible, use-anywhere satellite view for base building.
Bases will be medium size. Think DAWN OF WAR. Another main diff with BZ. Everybody can view sattellite anywhere. Non-commander can only commands unit assigned to them ( like BZ2). There will be FOG OF WAR.
Quote from: Zero Angel on March 22, 2008, 12:00:06 PM
I would suggest that you get a solid RTS engine going, then develop first person aspQuote from: Total Oblivion Omnis on March 22, 2008, 11:55:05 PM
That reminds me...
Please do include complete modding support with the game's release. Too many games are released that "post pone" full modding support. They may ship with a map editor but lack tools for modding anything else. I'm seeing more games lately that ship with incomplete modding tools but end up getting expansion packs. I believe the greater part of the the reason for not including full modding control is because developers make more profit by releasing mods of their own in the form of "expansion packs". Really, IMO, development costs are getting higher so they release an incomplete version of the game and add to it. It's a disguise for increased video game prices.
It could be a better idea to have the full range of modding tools available to the public, but allow staff members participate in major modding projects with the community modders and commercialize on such projects.
ects on to it. One of the reasons that the hardcore players still play BZ2 is because its a highly tactical game, an endless siege and fight where every human player matters -- each player controls the outcome somehow, and the freedom to determine which way you control the outcome is also great. Do you command, and if you command what strategies would you use, fast tech? field emplacement? Do you as a wing hit the enemy's resources and deny him? Do you as a wing seek out other human players and cripple their effectiveness that way? Do you raid their base to distract them? Each choice you make is weighed against the enemy's choice, and the outcome matters.
The tactics of conquering areas of the field, using feints and probes, and the fluidity of the action are all very important. But they would not work without a solid RTS engine to back it up.
Actually we're doing the opposite. We're getting a solid FPS ( the one with better outdoor culling ) and develop a tactical side of it. It's easier to make an RTS out of an FPS engine. Reason being, RTS engine are a lot focused on micromanaging, and getting units to THIS EXACT SPOT, which this game will not be focus on. I believe that is not what BZ exactly focuses on. We will highly likely not to have such things as FORCE move. Maybe FORCE attack or even FORCE RUN might exist. But basically u can't get a unit to suicide like a typical RTS such as WARCRAFT . e.g " Oh mr grunt, i need you to walk THROUGH that tower and head straight to the peons". I'll drop another hint here. Morale will be implemented on all infantry units, so you don't rush THROUGH towers. Units that got hit too terribly or loses too much morale will not respond to any command, you'll just lose control of them until they recover their Morale. Reason being, we are trying to keep things simple between Tactical AI and Survival Instinct, in plain English, we want a unit to survive himself instead of YOU teaching him how to. You tell him where to attack not how to live. It doesn't make sense that soldiers will keep running when their getting shot at. I'm not a logic freak, but I think it's no fun to see a dying AI unit running out of range will you're chasing him on foot ain't it coz enemy commander selected him and force him back to base. Ooww he escaped. To be fair Vehicles will not have morale. Still it will be a bad idea to run through towers.
Quote from: Zero Angel on March 22, 2008, 12:00:06 PM
On the other hand, one of the failings of BZ2 is its heavy reliance on individual teammates, as its very easy to stack a team if only one player of the other team is deficient. Newbies are often not given the chance to be useful because they are dropped into a battle of soldiers with only a stick (metaphorically speaking), and the commander must pay to re-equip them every time they die. It is not uncommon for a commander with a poorly faring team to spend the entire game rebuilding ships, unable to advance because his wingmen die too quickly.
The other failing is the strong interplay between a commander's progress and a team's progress. If a commander does poorly, then the team cannot advance, if the team does poorly than the commander cannot advance. This heavy reliance creates tension, and many are reluctant to command because of the pressure.
Ahh here is the GREAT see-saw where cracks my brain for the last 6 months brainstorming with my team. Question is commander-reliance or soldier-reliance. For our project,it will be Commander-reliance. BUT WHY???? I can't exactly tell you why without adding another 2000 words talking about "minion-killing" theory and theory of "how newbies quit". But i'll tell you what we do implement to counter problems faced by BZ2.
Firstly, although it's commander based, we'll be countering newbie-commander problem by allowing Good SOldiers to turtle UP beginning. If commander is poor, soldiers are good. they can go into defensive ( either by stepping INTO turrets or backing up turrets) and turn their base into fortresses. This only apply if the good soldiers stay in the base. That's point 1
Point 2 is, infantry will be much much more relatively cheap comparing to BZ and will be acting as meatshield in the beginning most of the time. Why? I'll tell you a secret. Newbies and pros have one similarity, they enjoy killing things, in fact ANYTHING would do. So how is this relevant? I'll tell you how. In case you see a team with LOUSY commander but good soldiers, 'punchbag' army offers a buffer time for both commander and player to think of a strat to counter the enemy. I can't tell you this is why MODS for warcraft III such as DOTA gets very good reception and a good fanbase. Basically, a good game need to give some buffer for good player vs bad player. They must not lose too fast.
Point 3, Good players can use a proper weapon to destroy ANY given army, if commander just averagely support them with enough meat-shield. * Special note: Acquiring good weapons do not depend on Commander. However, good utilization of weapons can only buy you time in hoping that your commander do something.
So assuming-
Team 1:
Good commander, 3 lousy soldiers
Team 2:
Lousy commander, 3 average soldiers.
Who will win? I'll tell you how, in the beginning , team 1 will rush. Team2's economy will suffer. The soldiers go on defense. When team 1's army strike. team 2 pick off team 1's hero (player ) . Hero die. They keep pushing their army and will somehow strike a balance warfare. THEN team 1's soldiers must learn and team2's commander must learn. It will then be Team1's TECHed up units VS Team2's Good utilization of their soldier's weapon. That will give the newbie commander and soldiers time to learn. If one of the team still don't learn then i suppose they deserve to lose.
Quote from: Zero Angel on March 22, 2008, 12:00:06 PM
I suggest that you retain the hover ship aspects of it. Hover physics are very important to developing a BZ style gameplay, and without appropriate hover physics, I guarantee you that half of the BZ2 players who are currently playing would not be playing at all.
Just a few things to watch for is all. :-D
We can't exactly say we'll put hover units or not. Most likely 1 or 2. But for sure it's not a core aspect. And I do not believe HOVERing is a core aspect why BZ2 players are still playing. I believe it's simply the combination of FPS with RTS with customizable weapons. Well before i get flamed for "Oh you don't understand BZ player", i urge ladies and gentlemen here study a bit about reception of FPS/RTS games. I can guarantee you , you will find tonnes of prove FPS/RTS games always gets extraordinary good reception. But why isn't major game developer's start putting these games on the conveyor belts, I believe it's game developer's blind spot. For a start, first.. checkout Savage's reception. Savage I , Savage II . Then goto www.moddb.com find out about their popular mods such as IronGrip ( FPS/RTS) and other more of those.
Quote from: mrtwosheds on March 23, 2008, 05:50:44 AM
All that stuff costs money to make, I suspect that you will find that modding "support" follows the success of the game for good reason.
How the game is put together is more important, many games do not get modded simply because their content is protected from it by design.
Also quoted by Total Oblivion Omnis
....Really, IMO, development costs are getting higher so they release an incomplete version of the game and add to it. It's a disguise for increased video game prices.
Yes you are right in saying it cost money to make. Actually money is not the main thing, it is time. Developers HARDLY have time to test out the games most of the time, therefore, they'll have LESSER time to test out tools. Releasing buggy tools will infuriate modding communities.
Also another sad fact is this, listen carefully... word - by - word. The cost of creating a powerful mod support tool does NOT justify the little gains it had. I'lll put it this way, creating GOOD modding tools is a GIFT from the developer to the community, it's NEVER a business strategy. There is one exception however. One big exception that i'm seeing a good trend in. You guys as a modding community MUST Understand this fact.
MOdding tools will ONLY benefit developers if they're planning to sell their engine licenses. Modders will create ENGINE DEMOS for developers for FREE ( and they called it MOD ) . This demos can be used by them ANTIME to show to potential engine buyers. Take a close look at the trend, crytek have a strong mod support ( they're working very hard to keep up to their promises of releasing sandbox patches). They sell engines. UNreal Engine has good modding tools, they sell engines. Half life 2 has good modding tools, they sell engine.
The single biggest factor in deciding MOST Game's profitability's today is if it has any MMO aspect in it. or at least online play.
Quote from: bigbadbogie on March 23, 2008, 09:12:38 AM
you honestly think that bz2 would have survived this long if it wasnt possible to mod it?? it would have lasted a few months tops!!
A very big note to BigBadBogie, developers of BZ2 do not profit much from the 10 years of modding. How many ppl do you know of that buys the game JUST to play the mods within this almost 10 years time frame. It just make the people happier, so if a company produces modding tool, be thankful, be very very thankful of them.
Anyway, this post is getting too long, I didn't expect it to be. Anyhow, still, I'm waiting for any volunteers to step up on this little prototyping we're doing. Thanks.
Quote from: frozenfire on March 23, 2008, 05:33:33 PM
About the logical design, don't worry, professional work has been done on it. We have defined different workable layers and core layers that will ensure the game will meet both the deadline and core idea ( which is one of the biggest challenge of games development company ) .
Very cool. Hope this actually works out, since you seem to be the one company that would be willing to actually do this (I don't count Nathan and Ken here because they are doing it in their spare time).
Quote
1) What do you mean by TAP? if you mean TAG, it is highly probable that will not allow units to be tagged as we don't expect much chase to be done in this game. We don't have a lot of hovering units. As infantry is a large part of it, stealth should be an important aspect.
Small misunderstanding. A TAP is an additional building attached to a building. If you've played BZ2, all of the Scion buildings, with the exception of the Matriarch, have taps. The powerlungs that are attached to all of the buildings are "tapped" onto the building, and appear as soon as the parent building is created. Any building can have a tap, but at the moment, taps will not work on units. You could technically even tap a building onto a building, as Avatar has done with his Ancient Hadean race.
Quote
Couldn't agree more. That is why we need the prototype. Never test a core idea after game is launched. Even beta is too late. Prototype is perfect
That is very true. If you're still having problems with the core, the game probably won't be popular, especially if you have to patch it every week or so to fix stuff.
QuoteBases will be medium size. Think DAWN OF WAR. Another main diff with BZ. Everybody can view sattellite anywhere. Non-commander can only commands unit assigned to them ( like BZ2). There will be FOG OF WAR.
I don't quite understand here. By FOW, do you mean on the minimap/radar only, or on the satellite, or when actually looking through the windshield/visor of your tank/helmet?
QuoteMorale will be implemented on all infantry units, so you don't rush THROUGH towers. Units that got hit too terribly or loses too much morale will not respond to any command, you'll just lose control of them until they recover their Morale. Reason being, we are trying to keep things simple between Tactical AI and Survival Instinct, in plain English, we want a unit to survive himself instead of YOU teaching him how to. You tell him where to attack not how to live. It doesn't make sense that soldiers will keep running when their getting shot at. I'm not a logic freak, but I think it's no fun to see a dying AI unit running out of range will you're chasing him on foot ain't it coz enemy commander selected him and force him back to base. Ooww he escaped. To be fair Vehicles will not have morale. Still it will be a bad idea to run through towers.
A smarter AI may be just what this kind of game needs. Sounds extremely interesting. But why wouldn't vehicles have morale? Unless they're autonomous, they would still have pilots, and those pilots would probably be scared hootless if you told them to go up against an army, all by themselves.
QuoteWe can't exactly say we'll put hover units or not. Most likely 1 or 2. But for sure it's not a core aspect. And I do not believe HOVERing is a core aspect why BZ2 players are still playing. I believe it's simply the combination of FPS with RTS with customizable weapons. Well before i get flamed for "Oh you don't understand BZ player", i urge ladies and gentlemen here study a bit about reception of FPS/RTS games. I can guarantee you , you will find tonnes of prove FPS/RTS games always gets extraordinary good reception. But why isn't major game developer's start putting these games on the conveyor belts, I believe it's game developer's blind spot. For a start, first.. checkout Savage's reception. Savage I , Savage II . Then goto www.moddb.com find out about their popular mods such as IronGrip ( FPS/RTS) and other more of those.
I agree with you here, because even if they're used to having only hover units, if the new game is enjoyable and still mentally stimulating, people should want to play it. The game shouldn't be about just whether or not there are hovering units or treaded units or whatever. The game should be about how simple the command interface is and how intuitive the controls are.
QuoteA very big note to BigBadBogie, developers of BZ2 do not profit much from the 10 years of modding. How many ppl do you know of that buys the game JUST to play the mods within this almost 10 years time frame. It just make the people happier, so if a company produces modding tool, be thankful, be very very thankful of them.
You've covered all of the bases and told off bbb. That's a day's work right there. And the developers of BZ2 don't profit at all from it anymore, I think. They don't release it anymore, so any copies you want have to be purchased second-hand.
QuoteAnyway, this post is getting too long, I didn't expect it to be. Anyhow, still, I'm waiting for any volunteers to step up on this little prototyping we're doing. Thanks.
It wasn't too long, it was just the right length to get all of the information out there. Thanks.
VSMIT.
Well a better description of taps and why they are useful is this. A tap is like a spawn for its parent. For example, a building can have a guntower object tapped to it, so that when the building is created, the guntower is also created with the building. If the tapped object (child) is destroyed, it can be rebuilt through the constructors 'add tap' command. BZ2 modders use taps to create multifunction buildings since each building in BZ2 is otherwise only limited to being one class (relaybunker, factory, guntower, motionsensor, servicebay, etc). When the main building goes down, so does everything that's tapped to it.
And I will have to agree now, with your idea about hover tanks. They provide usefulness in some capacity, but their main purpose is to provide action, if you could develop as solid FPS engine (which BZ2 does not have, hence the reliance on hover physics), then this can be done. However I must say, that flying a BZ2 ship and commencing hover and arc attacks grants a sense of freedom that is unmatched otherwise.
QuoteActually we're doing the opposite. We're getting a solid FPS ( the one with better outdoor culling ) and develop a tactical side of it. It's easier to make an RTS out of an FPS engine. Reason being, RTS engine are a lot focused on micromanaging, and getting units to THIS EXACT SPOT, which this game will not be focus on. I believe that is not what BZ exactly focuses on. We will highly likely not to have such things as FORCE move. Maybe FORCE attack or even FORCE RUN might exist. But basically u can't get a unit to suicide like a typical RTS such as WARCRAFT . e.g " Oh mr grunt, i need you to walk THROUGH that tower and head straight to the peons". I'll drop another hint here. Morale will be implemented on all infantry units, so you don't rush THROUGH towers. Units that got hit too terribly or loses too much morale will not respond to any command, you'll just lose control of them until they recover their Morale. Reason being, we are trying to keep things simple between Tactical AI and Survival Instinct, in plain English, we want a unit to survive himself instead of YOU teaching him how to. You tell him where to attack not how to live. It doesn't make sense that soldiers will keep running when their getting shot at. I'm not a logic freak, but I think it's no fun to see a dying AI unit running out of range will you're chasing him on foot ain't it coz enemy commander selected him and force him back to base. Ooww he escaped. To be fair Vehicles will not have morale. Still it will be a bad idea to run through towers.
It doesnt take a genius to figure out that you've really thought this through. BZ2 AI is dumb in a lot of ways, for one if given a go-to, it will defend itself only when the enemy fires a first shot on it (which means you can go right up to the unit and hit it with a quick blast/laser/mortar combination taking about 80% of its life away before it fights back), and it will run past defenses and get hit by them before sub-attacking (ie: defending itself). A smarter AI would practice tactical awareness, -- It would think to a unit that gets 100m within it "whoa, this guy is all up in my space, and he's a threat! I must defend myself! -- ie: staying outside of the range of fixed defenses when moving, taking initiative during a sub-attack, refusing to advance when there's too many enemies around (unless the AI class is a bold one). I think this can be done by creating several layers of awareness (ie: 250m front-facing awareness, 150m defensive/peripheral awareness, 60m full tactical awareness) at different distances. I'm sure any engines you are using will be basing themselves off of this.
Also, look at assault tanks, they have to stop to fire. In an RTS, the tanks should be able to fire while enroute. Their movement AI being separate of their attack AI. This has kind of bothered me about RTS games.
As far as modding support goes. I still think this is important. How much trouble is it to make most things configurable? Why would you want to tweak a constant like gravity than recompile, rather than create a configuration file for these constants? Do you want your mapmakers and mission designers to be limited by hardcoded things within the game's engine, sending requests for changes upstream to the programmers, or would it be better to make some of these things configurable on a per-map/per-mod basis? Half-life was successful enough at being modded that Counterstrike became a stand-along game. In BZ2, the game is incredibly configurable. Newbies can create new weapons and units without problems, because the engine is so easy to develop for. If you can, read an ODF file sometime (the BZ2 object definition format), it may be wise to incorporate a similar structure. The more modular and extensible the engine, the easier it would be to upgrade its capability through patches and expansion packs, and the less headaches your level and object designers have to deal with.
Seconded ZA
Quote from: VSMIT on March 23, 2008, 07:26:20 PM
You've covered all of the bases and told off bbb. That's a day's work right there. And the developers of BZ2 don't profit at all from it anymore, I think. They don't release it anymore, so any copies you want have to be purchased second-hand.
:-D
You dont think that the orignal developers would feel good about their hard work being appreciated for so long...?
That is how they profit from it.
Nearly 10 years after the game was released people are still spending years on making mods for it. If I was a developer i would feel proud of myself.
Quote from: VSMIT on March 23, 2008, 07:26:20 PM
I don't quite understand here. By FOW, do you mean on the minimap/radar only, or on the satellite, or when actually looking through the windshield/visor of your tank/helmet?
Minimap/radar only. RTS view only. FOW in FPS view would be funny though. We don't want to see big black cloud soaking with enemy 100 m ahead of you. So yes,incase you're wondering, you'll see further in FPS view than in RTS view.
Quote from: VSMIT on March 23, 2008, 07:26:20 PM
A smarter AI may be just what this kind of game needs. Sounds extremely interesting. But why wouldn't vehicles have morale? Unless they're autonomous, they would still have pilots, and those pilots would probably be scared hootless if you told them to go up against an army, all by themselves.
Many Reasons , trust me
1) We'd like players to have the satisfaction of killing specific AI who he's badly wounded. Frustration is bad for gamers. Here's how we do it, we want to make panicked ( 0 morale ) Infantry run towards allied unit cluster, firing at these bumbling targets from their back is very satisfying for gamers generally. However, To see a tank sprinting away is actually pretty funny, on the other hand ,a panicked gun-based-vehicles ( such as jeeps) speeding away while you're on foot is just frustrating. Zoom! bye bye.
2) a group of panicked just 3-4 tanks will get stuck. if you've done path finding on FPS engine before, this happens all the time, trust me. However, you can "sort-of" set higher buffer time for Pathfinding, making them more prudent will be even funnier, then, tank take turns to run. Doesn't look panic to me.
3) Morale calculation can get complex, we do it by putting into account unit's health, if nearby HUMAN PLAYER exist, some special abilities, factions cluster unit size ( how many units are there), and slowly decreases morale in combat based on that. Vehicles should have MUCH higher cluster value. Therefore, EVEN if we put morale in vehicle, it'll be funny when 1 tank vs 5 infantry, the infantry will lose morale before the tank does, causing them to run away from the tank that they're suppose to PWN.
About the tap buildings, we don't do tap implementation. But we do have a lot of add-ons in our prototype techtree
Well, killing wounded units does have its sort of fun. I think its more satisfying to kill a unit thats pinned down and fighting desperately. Like the art of war says:
QuoteThrow them where they cannot leave.
Facing death they will not be routed.
Officers and men facing death,
How could one not obtain their utmost strength?
When military officers are utterly sinking, they do not fear.
Where they cannot leave, they stand firm.
When they enter deep, they hold tightly.
Where they cannot leave, they fight.
....
Throw them were they cannot leave
It is then you will see their utmost bravery
I dont know why I posted that. :-D
I'd seriously help, really i would, but im more of a modeler than a programmer....... but I will more than likely help test & buy this game come that time....
I might help with modeling :)
i would be the spearhead of its community project - if it was as easy to mod as bz2
Can I get your company's website please?
I can do visual effects (not sound effects, just visual). Also I have limited knowledge in C++. Though, considering how many years it can take to get a game completed, I'll be a full-fledged beginner programmer (maybe intermediate if I really try :P), in about two to three years max.
Very interesting write-up frozenfire, I like your analysis of which companies provide good modding tools and why... right on the money.
But this:
Quote from: frozenfireAnd I do not believe HOVERing is a core aspect why BZ2 players are still playing. I believe it's simply the combination of FPS with RTS with customizable weapons.
This is not a flame, but as the old man around here let me tell you a little something about the psychology of BZ players, going back to Battlezone I and the launch of Battlezone II.
Battlezone I was primarily a DM game. The DM sessions outweighed the Strat sessions 10 to 1 (conservative estimate, I wasn't there 24 hours a day). DM's were always running, almost always full, and Strat games started up each evening between the few dozen players that played Strat. At the time there was nothing that gave you the freedom to fight like BZ did. Hovercraft were new and exciting, as were aliens, spacesuits, being on other planets, and while Quake was fun it didn't hold a candle for us compared with cruising around planets in hovercraft.
Strat was OK, but there was a lack of tools for communication, the network model made it impossible to kill players with high pings, and getting a public game going was frustrating even with the lobby. Because of this we generally played strat amongst ourselves, with people/pings we knew worked well together.
Battlezone II was launched with a different focus. Team Strat was the central game type, and the first six months all we heard were the DM Clans complaining, despite being urged to try Team Strat. In a short time they virtually all left, as they weren't happy with BZ2 physics, look, feel, gameplay, or the focus on Strat.
Many of the players that had been die-hard BZ1 DM players tried BZ2 Strat with us, but they didn't even know how to build a building, or gather scrap, or command wingmen, and they really didn't want to know. They just wanted to get in a ship and go kill things. This same attitude prevailed when BZ2 first started, as it seems to me all I had as a Commander was a bunch of guys standing in base going "need a ship" over and over. Without the automatic respawn of a DM ship for them they were lost, and hated having to ask for another ship when they lost theirs...
I've written volumes on the way that an FPS/RTS hybrid must cater to both player types, but the common element is that the vehicles must be FUN to fight in. After that you have to let DM style players have their fun, while allowing RTS style players to have theirs. It sounds like you and your company have some very good ideas, just don't discount the importance of providing both player types with what they need to become addicted to your game...
-Av-
Quote from: Total Oblivion Omnis on March 24, 2008, 03:32:43 AM
I can do visual effects (not sound effects, just visual). Also I have limited knowledge in C++. Though, considering how many years it can take to get a game completed, I'll be a full-fledged beginner programmer (maybe intermediate if I really try :P), in about two to three years max.
got your PM. I"ll mail you shortly to ask you a few questions to determine your level of involvement
Quote from: Feared_1 on March 24, 2008, 02:39:04 AM
Can I get your company's website please?
PMed you in your MSN.
People have mentioned wanting knowledge in C++ here, but you (frozenfire) I can not find an immediate reference to, did you need programmers or not. Or better yet, can you give a simple list of exactly the things you want done?
(http://www.overminddl1.com/image_scripts/image_sig.php?type=ODL1signitures&image/sig.gif)
Generated by OvermindDL1's Signature Auto-Add Script (http://overminddl1.com) via GreaseMonkey (http://greasemonkey.mozdev.org/)
Quote from: OvermindDL1 on March 24, 2008, 09:03:15 PM
People have mentioned wanting knowledge in C++ here, but you (frozenfire) I can not find an immediate reference to, did you need programmers or not. Or better yet, can you give a simple list of exactly the things you want done?
(http://www.overminddl1.com/image_scripts/image_sig.php?type=ODL1signitures&image/sig.gif)
Generated by OvermindDL1's Signature Auto-Add Script (http://overminddl1.com) via GreaseMonkey (http://greasemonkey.mozdev.org/)
Yes we do need programmer. 3d Artist ( someone who can model, animate and texture ) , and level designer and maybe sound engineers if exist. If not we'll just rip any good LEGAL tracks/SFX anywhere we can find, since this is not a commercial project.
The reason I am not specific is because, like I said, this is a prototype, any engine is acceptable as long as the core game mechanics is shown. Therefore, I do not specify either language is because I don't want any of you guys to feel that "Oh I don't know that one, so I'm out ".
That is why, I ask, any of you want to volunteer to be in this prototype in a general way . So I can get response that sound more like:
"Oh I can model, I'm interested in this, what can I do for you?"
"Oh I can programme in C++, let's use this or that engine"
"Oh I can't do nutz, but I can draw nice concepts, what can I do for this project?"
Ah... then we can work something out
But so far generally. I think C++ or C# would be good. But then again, if you're very good in another language, we can still discuss.
Recommended Engine would be
3D Game Studio
Neo-Axis ( http://www.neoaxisgroup.com/description.htm )
Visual3D ( http://www.visual3d.net nice engine but no documentation...but only if you can figure out how it works)
Leadwerks ( http://www.leadwerks.com/ quite light, has a nice world editor u can download from same page)
Actually. Our company is trying to limit the staffs that are doing this prototype so that most of them can be channeled to our other outsource project.
Well, I can model (kinda new) and I can make VERY basic textures...but i'm still kindof new at it. But practice makes perfect :)
I'm good with making simple sounds, maybe some silly voices too...
And, I'm really good at making things in BZ, odf files, the weapons, the shell interface, etc...Getting better with photoshop.
Programs at my disposal: 3ds Max 7, Photoshop 7.0, Notepad, 3d exploration, Gmax, Goldwave.
Animating models, I can do it in max, but i havnt been able to export them to xsi, so for xsi models I write the animations in notepad.
Not sure how usefull I can be, but I hope to help a little bit. (might get a foot in the door at a career even) :)
Quote from: General BlackDragon on March 25, 2008, 04:30:23 PM
Animating models, I can do it in max, but i havnt been able to export them to xsi, so for xsi models I write the animations in notepad.
WF made a good tutorial on how to export animated models from max into xsi:
http://www.bzuniverse.com/forum/index.php/topic,7315.msg115757.html#msg115757
The tutorial is kindof bogus for "puny" screens, I ahve an updated version if you want..........
ANYHOW, as i said, i can model and can follow concept art pretty well, so if you ever want anything from me, models will be it.
General BlackDragon and Warfreak.
please mail me at chiean2000@yahoo.com thank you.
I mean mail me some of your work. JPEG would do.
You could try the Source Engine. It's primarily a physics engine with FPS code, but that can be greatly modified. Also, you are making a human heavy game (FPS). Source Engine Mods (they call em mods but they are really entire games on the engine) can sometimes make real money. "Garry's Mod" used to be free and now, thought STEAM, he actually sells the 'mod'.
I can model, and would be glad to help, but I must warn you I normally throw out about 24 in every 25 models as 'not good enough'.
If you go with the SOURCE engine, I don't know how to get models in there. I know there are visual models, physics models, collision models, and all that stuff. I don't know about the 3Ds, but Overmind has a lot more experience with the SOURCE SDK then I do. That being said, I don't know how much experience he actually has.
Alrigth, let me find some of my stuff lying around, i have four or five good models, unskinned sadly.......
I email'ed what I sent. The pics are orderd in the same order that I made the ships, so you should see some nice progression :)
Sorry I'm not very good at textures, I just havn't spent much time on them.
i can do good sound work should you need it... a lot of my work is taken from other places and modified. but sound effects usually ARE about that
i can vouch for warfreak he made a few ships, map/s and a few weapons though not great give him the right directions and he can improve, also u might want to look in the forums or pm a guy called Raven he was working on a mod a while back but never got off the ground due to his comitments for school and the face he had a few harddrive problems, warfreak and i were beta testers for his mod and we have a few of his ships and weapons lying around in our battlezone 2 files somewere, so if u have a copy of BZ2 i can email u the 3 ships i have (i think u will have fun with the speeder XD) lol im in my HSC year at the moment but next year i will me at home for the majority of the day (no job as of yet) so if u get the game up and running and u need a tester dont hesetate to call me in, i have been playing battlezone 1 and 2 for as long as i can remember and if your making a game based on them i honistly say i cant wait to see how it turns out, keep us posted on the progress would u? im sure a speak for alota zoners in here when i say we want to know how its coming along.
PM me if u want to take a look at the ships Raven made or if u need a tester, i would be happy to help in anyway i can however i have no experience in modding what so ever :( never had the time to learn it.
Quote from: TheJamsh on May 05, 2008, 01:23:22 PM
i can do good sound work should you need it... a lot of my work is taken from other places and modified. but sound effects usually ARE about that
you can do sound effects? great. I'll be contacting you shortly.
However, I don't totally agree usually sound effects are taken from other place and modified. Professional Sounds Engineers from studio usually digitally generate them either from nothing or from a variety of templates using different processes.
Modified sound effects are accepted as long as it's not too clear where you took the sound from.
Also.... for those of you who are interested in the progress of this project. Our team is working very hard to set up the whole thing to kick start the development. So far , what we need are some kick@ss Concept Artist and sound engineers then we're off to the prototype development. We'll be setting up a site for this project very soon. Our core team has decided to let the prototype be a Community-based project(as far as content is concern). If you're not familiar about what is a community-based project.. check this out... http://topsecret.acclaim.com/ . It's a community driven development. It's a little bit different with open source project. The source and the core idea is actually closed, but the content creation is opened up to public. However, any work submitted is 100% voluntary and it belongs to the company. Exact details haven't been finalised yet. I will keep this thread updated on this project if you guys are interested to participate.