When I was able to convert X files to XSI using version 1.5.5 of 3DEX (don't waste your time with it after 30 days it stops working for converting files) I made a simple animated box looking thing. It animated just fine in the 3DEX player. Then after it stopped converting I fell back to using X2XSI which better preserves the XSI output format way better then BZ2ME ever did.
Anyways, the X2XSI utility was used to convert the same X file and it created an almost identical XSI conversion to that created by the 1.5.5 XSI converter it uses. It apparently translates animationset keys quite well compared to BZ2ME which does little more then add a template entry but no actual numerical data where its suppose to go in the file.
I noticed after doing a side by side compare of the 2 files in notepad that with the exception of a few numerical differences the layout looked almost the same. The major difference was that the 1.5.5 version actually animated but not the X2XSI version. Using the 1.5.5 version for reference I began to systematically make changes to the file in an effort to get it to animate, but to no avail. No matter how much I modified the X2XSI version I wasn't able to get it to conform to the animated 1.5.5 version to get it moving so to speak.
Does anybody know of a file comparison utility that I can use to analize the 2 files to log the differences between them? Something minor seems to be absent from the X2XSI version when compared to the 1.5.5 XSI version preventing it from actually showing the animation sequence as I see in the X2XSI version. What I do notice is the playback slider moves back and forth, but no actual animation is visable as with the 1.5.5 XSI file.
Like I said earlier, I made selective changes in notepad to get the 2 files to match as closely as possible and then saved the changes as I went along. Notepad, doesn't really format/wrap, but could the issue be that I need to use a pure text editor like Crimson? Tanks for any feedback guys...BNG.
Notepad
For comparing text files, nothing beats a standard diff application, for windows get something like WinMerge.
And X2XSI is, as avatar put it, little more than a find/replace text app.
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If I wanted to try this file out in the map editor what data pack ODF file could I modfiy to test out my X2XSI file to see if it will animate? I think it'll work, but I always seem to be 2 cans short of a 6 pack in understanding how such things work as far as animation is concerned. Tanks, BNG. PS: Tanks OM. I'll checkout WinMerge.
WinMerge is an intensely useful utility for not only comparing 2 different XSI files, but it also allows whole blocks of lines to be copied to either of the 2 files to make them identical if you wish. Kudos, OM and thank you very much for pointing me in the right direction. I plan to do quite a few file comparisons amongst the different X and XSI file formats. Now I can easily compare and modify known working XSI animated files to those created by X2XSI to maybe get them to animate properly. I think MTS would probably love this utility too as it's works quite well for text files in general.
I may be able to convert the current DOTXSI format back to the BZII version with some experimentation using the two Blender exporters; your version and the one that originally came with Blender. Still need read up on the capabilities of WinMerge, but it all looks promising overall...BNG.
It appears that this XSI section is not required, but added by X2XSI by default:
SI_Angle {
0;
}
SI_Camera Camera1 {
-6.311365; -0.886205; 0.415669;;
0.000000; 0.000000; 0.000000;;
0.000000;
39.561378;
0.100000;
32768.000000;
}
SI_Ambience {
0.000000; 0.000000; 0.000000;;
This section has extra spaces added in front of it unlike the animated XSI version produced by the 1.5.5 3DEX version:
1;
0;
1;
0;
2;
5;
}
Copying the 1.5.5 version in it's entirety across to the X2XSI version using WinMerge produces an animated model, but does not tell me anything useful about why the X2XSI behaves differently then the working version at this point. I'm selectively modifying different sections to see which will eventually lead to a reason why it won't animate. It's just got to be something relatively minor yet correctable as the files look almost identical in WinMerge with a few exceptions
This is interesting. As a test I only changed the following section in the X2XSI version and the cube actually started to animate:
AnimationSet {
Animation {
{CubeMesh-0}
SI_AnimationKey {
0;
2;
0; 4; 1.000000, 0.000000, 0.000000, 0.000000;;,
10; 4; 1.000000, 0.000000, 0.000000, 0.000000;;;
}
SI_AnimationKey {
1;
1;
0; 3; 1.000000, 1.000000, 1.000000;;;
}
SI_AnimationKey {
2;
2;
0; 3; 0.000000, 0.000000, 0.000000;;,
10; 3; -2.877881, 0.000000, 0.000000;;;
}
}
}
The problem seems to be in this section as all the other sections appear to be just fine without any modifications, so I'm guessing that X2XSI with modifications to the animationset section can make the model actually work.
I still need to take a closer at this section to determine what's going on that makes it not work when an X file with animation is converted using X2XSI. I'm going to spent the next few days basically just tinkering with the issue and I'll post again as I try to figure it all out. Kudos to Avatar for making this little gem in the rough...rough...LOL.
PS: It also appears the extra SI_Angle section (that X2XSI creates) can be left in the file along with the extra spaces in the header section as I mentioned the problem lies in the animationset section. A nice feature in WinMerge is that it also supports an UNDO feature, so if you screw up just hit the undo button to restore any changes you make to the X2XSI XSI file that you want to modify...BNG
AnimationSet {
Animation {
{CubeMesh-0}
SI_AnimationKey {
0;
2;
0; 4; 1.000000, 0.000000, 0.000000, 0.000000;;,
10; 4; 1.000000, 0.000000, 0.000000, 0.000000;;;
}
This is a rotation animation,first value after SI_AnimationKey { = 0; it does not move, as there are no values changing.
SI_AnimationKey {
1;
1;
0; 3; 1.000000, 1.000000, 1.000000;;;
}
This is a Scale Animation, first value after SI_AnimationKey { = 1; It will not work in BZ2.
SI_AnimationKey {
2;
2;
0; 3; 0.000000, 0.000000, 0.000000;;,
10; 3; -2.877881, 0.000000, 0.000000;;;
}
This is a Translation Animation, first value after SI_AnimationKey { = 2; It should move -2.877881 in some direction.
}
}
All of these are being applied to CubeMesh-0, only the ones that work are really actually required.
The main issues I can see are,
It has no name.(really useful if you want it script controlled)
eg
AnimationSet {
Animation anim-spider {
It does not use frm- to identifiy the frame
eg
{frm-spider}
AnimationSet {
Animation anim-spider {
{frm-spider}
SI_AnimationKey {
2;
8;
1; 3; 0, 3, 0;;,
3; 3; 0, 3, 0;;,
6; 3; 0, 3, 0;;,
9; 3; 0, 3, 0;;,
12; 3; 0, 3, 0;;,
15; 3; 0, 3, 0;;,
18; 3; 0, 3, 0;;,
21; 3; 0, 3, 0;;;
}
SI_AnimationKey {
0;
8;
1; 4; 1, 0, 0.0, 0;;,
3; 4; 1, 0, 0.0, 0;;,
6; 4; 1, 0, 0.0, 0;;,
9; 4; 1, 0, 0.0, 0;;,
12; 4; 1, 0, 0.0, 0;;,
15; 4; 1, 0, 0.0, 0;;,
18; 4; 1, 0, 0.0, 0;;,
21; 4; 1, 0, 0, 0;;;
So I would make your example animation like this.
AnimationSet {
Animation anim-bng {
{frm-CubeMesh-0}
SI_AnimationKey {
2;
2;
0; 3; 0.000000, 0.000000, 0.000000;;,
10; 3; -2.877881, 0.000000, 0.000000;;;
}
}
}
SI_AnimationKey {
1;
1;
0; 3; 1.000000, 1.000000, 1.000000;;;
}
This is a Scale Animation, first value after SI_AnimationKey { = 1; It will not work in BZ2.
It doesnt work? :'(
I experimented, scale animations that work in 3dex have no effect at all in bz2, presumably scale animation was not implemented in bz2 as vertex animation could achieve the same result...
Exactly, vertex animation can emulate any other form of animation. Although that does not really fully explain why rotation and such is and scale is not, just an old ancient design decision, probably a holdover from one of the older engines BZ2 engine came from.
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Sure glad rotation animation is possible as I have not found a way to vertex animate with max.
As I also mentioned earlier, I'd like to try a simple animation test in the map editor using a simple modified ODF file to check things out for myself. Could someone please suggest a single animation file to use for this purpose? Something like say the ISDF power generator or other simple one animation ODF file. Nothing personal, but I don't initially accept the can not do in the game thingy statement, and would like to see for my self whether or not it can be done.
I also have a lot to learn about animation and still don't quite understand what I'm doing at present, and considering the very few animation options currently available to the average modeler; would like to see where this leads. I'm sure there are other modelers that feel the same way as well. Most of us are just looking for another alternative way to make animated models for the game.
I see Directx as a more viable option then working with the current Dotxsi format which sadly isn't back wards compatible with the version supported by BZII. My searching for alternatives always seems to lead full circle back to the X format converted somehow to several versions of XSI variants. Each with some desirable qualities, but all missing the mark of actually working in the game. Truly frustrating overall, yet intriguingly worthy of more experimentation. It's almost like the search for the Holy Grail...I must possess it, or crash-n-burn in the attempt to obtain it...BNG
In my experimentations, the most common reasons for an animation not working are usually just simple things like the animation frame name not being exactly as it is in the model, you might call a frame and animation {CubeMesh} but the modeling program decides it should be {CubeMesh-0}. Not getting the odf entrys right is another frequent mistake I make, just forgetting to change the animCount is one of my usual errors.
It is also important to make sure that the right number of {} are present, loosing one will stop it working.
The odf you use would depend on what you want the anim to do, the pwrgen is good for a static building loop type anim.
A GT would be good for a deploy type anim. There are limitations on what animations each class will do, buildings do not do forward, back strafe...
QuoteNothing personal, but I don't initially accept the can not do in the game thingy statement, and would like to see for my self whether or not it can be done.
It is good to be inquisitive, I hope you find a way to do it, as I would really like to use them. There are no scale Animations in any of the stock models, or others that I have seen. I do not think that their presence will cause a problem however.
And remember, if an animation is not working correctly try including position key frames into more of the model.
what does a vertex animation look like in notepad?
can i just voice something that zero angel said to me. DONT use notepad when editing XSI's or MSH files. i now use a program he recommended called arachnophilia. its VERY good, and unlike notepad, CAN edit MSH files without breaking the binary data as ZA put it
http://www.webmasterfree.com/Arachnophilia_d7554.html
Tanks guys, I was looking at a massive XSI file for a walker type in the data pack and copied the AnimationSet and SI_AnimationKey sections minus the ton of XYZ numbers that were to the left and below them to make viewing the entries easier onscreen; I got tired of scrolling up and down forever to compare stuff due to the size of the file.
Now comes the scare part of looking at the structure of a model file, and the associated ODF file. I'll take your suggestions into account and begin experimenting with making file changes in some systematic way to see if anything produces an actual animation.
I'm also going to look in the data pack for some of the simpler animated files. I remember one or two like a waving flag, and a rotating platform. Question: does SI_Envelope refer to a vertex type animation? Tanks BNG.
PS: Dl'ing it now JAM.
Quotedoes SI_Envelope refer to a vertex type animation? Tanks BNG.
It is used in models that are vertex animated.
so is SI_FrameBasePoseMatrix {
Basically a selection of the models vertex's are grouped with a bone (just another numerical point) this is then animated with a normal animation causing just one part of a mesh to move.
The only thing stopping me constructing vertex animation in notepad is being unable to identify individual vertex. A program that does vertex animation would make this visible.
How can arachnophilia open files that are not listed in the open file dialog; I don't see a listing for either msh or xsi. Help me to understand again how it's of any use for BZII? Tanks BNG.
Tanks MTS, stranglely enough I'm currently searching for 3d program with vertex animation features, but the search goes on. It'd be nice to find one as the Scion units mainly appear to be constructed in this way. At this point, I'd just be happy to figure out how to do regular animations, but we can always hope right? BNG.
In the sample section below I notice spaces after the commas...is this important to include in the XSI file structure? I'm asking for clarification as X2XSI does not write out these spaces in it's version, neither does the 3DEX 1.5.5 version; the section below was copied out of an XSI from the data pack files.
(RTMS: BNG modify cube version to see if it makes any difference and make notation.)
1; 4; 1.000000, 0.000000, 0.000000, 0.000000;;,
8; 4; 0.758758, 0.000000, -0.651373, 0.000000;;,
9; 4; 0.688967, -0.000000, -0.724793, -0.000000;;,
24; 4; -0.688967, -0.000000, -0.724793, -0.000000;;,
25; 4; 0.758758, 0.000000, 0.651373, 0.000000;;,
31; 4; 0.994869, 0.000000, 0.101169, 0.000000;;;
B3D supports vertex animations just fine, and as usual, the more testing that people do with the animations, the faster I can get the exporter to export it, cannot really do anything without reports coming in. :)
And no, the spaces are not relevent, almost none of the whitespace is needed, heck you could put the xsi all on to a single line if you wanted.
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does 3dsmax support vertex animation??
@ BNG, get it to open All Files.
or use Open With... then find the arachnopilia.exe on youre system (itll be where ever you installed it too of course)
Tanks TJ. In regards to the AnimationSet section that I noted earlier I noticed that the x2xsi xsi version does not write out the SI_ prefix where it needs to be when it translates the x file to xsi. In WinMerge, which I used for comparison.
After I manually changed, AnimationKey { to SI_AnimationKey { the animation began to play in 3DEX. There are also several other animation entries which need to be changed as well under the animation section. Apparently, the SI_ thingy does make a difference and if not present should be manually entered into the file.
Maybe the BZII engine needs to see this information to further process the file; I don't know for sure, but it seems to make a world of difference guys.
MeshVertexColors, is written out by x2xsi from the x file (which does have it) but I don't notice it in any of the xsi files from the data pack. Can I safely delete this section from the resulting xsi file produced by x2xsi?
Update: I tried deleting this section and lost the animation controls in 3DEX; undoing the deletion brought them back again.
This is totally strange, but x2xsi handles the animation section quite nicely with the addition of the SI_ entries in the animationset section, but does poorly with handling the texture information; nothing shows up.
Bz2me, on the other hand does great with the texture section, but fails miserably in the animation section.
Now I'm wondering if a possible compromise solution might result by using WinMerge with both versions loaded side by side to exchange data sections between each other to produce a textured, and animated file. I'm going to try it out by using both apps to make an xsi file with bz2me, and one with x2xsi and load them both in winmerge and try some simple left to right data section swapping/merging to see what results from the data swaps. BNG, scratches his head and hopes to hell he don't get totally confused in the process....
QuoteMeshVertexColors, is written out by x2xsi from the x file (which does have it) but I don't notice it in any of the xsi files from the data pack. Can I safely delete this section from the resulting xsi file produced by x2xsi?
My process results in an xsi without the MeshVertexColors, entry, if I wish part of the model to use vertex colouring I have to add MeshVertexColors manually.
If you lost the animation after deleting it, it is probably due to having an incorrect number/placement of {}.
{
{I think of {} as open and close.}
{so you must get them right, to create hierarchy
{Or the information is curtailed}
}
}
Cool, I got the bz2me version to animate by copying the animation section from the x2xsi version. Now I guess I'll try copying the bz2me texture section to the x2xsi version to see if I can get the texture I applied to appear as it currently displays as a plain grey cube.
Editing the files in winmerge is proving to be quite a useful exercise as I never imagined much of anything would ever happen except for things to just crash 3dex. Maybe there's hope yet in just trying something to see what happens either way right?
Still got a lot of work to do least of which is actually understanding what the heck I'm doing....
Update, the texture section looks a bit more complicated as the bz2me version does not have the MeshVertexColors section like the x2xsi version does. Geeze! I hope I don't get totally lost switching stuff back and forth.
Do I need to copy more then this section from the bz2me file to the x2xsi version?
SI_Texture2D {
"C:\gameSpaceLight\Textures\desertcamo.bmp";
3;
256;256;
0;255;0;255;
0;
1;1;
0;0;
1;1;
0;0;
0.944739,0.327825,0,0,
-0.327825,0.944739,0,0,
0,0,1,0,
0,1,0,6.30941e+36;;
3;
1;
0.75;
1;
0;
0;
0;
0;
}
}
}
Also, if I change the font size in notepad/winmerge from 12 to 8 would that mess up the xsi files? I can see more of the files on one page by reducing the font size.
no, the size data is not stored into the file, but rather into the viewer.
QuoteDo I need to copy more then this section from the bz2me file to the x2xsi version?
Um, I don't know.
I always define my textures in my .3ds before converting to .x (3dex) and then to .xsi (x2xsi)
The texture part makes it though ok but MeshVertexColors is missing because it seems .3ds does not use it.
I just copy the SI_MeshTextureCoords data, paste it underneath and modify it to become SI_MeshVertexColors.
SI_MeshTextureCoords {
8;
0.303399;0.043848;,
0.303399;0.406524;,
0.517014;0.007463;,
0.517014;0.406524;,
0.303399;0.043848;,
0.303399;0.406524;,
0.517014;0.007463;,
0.517014;0.406524;;
4;
0;3;0,1,2;,
1;3;1,3,2;,
2;3;4,5,6;,
3;3;5,7,6;;
}
SI_MeshVertexColors {
8;
0;0;1;1;,
0;0;1;1;,
0;0;1;1;,
0;0;1;1;,
0;0;1;1;,
0;0;1;1;,
0;0;1;1;,
0;0;1;1;;
4;
0;3;0,1,2;,
1;3;1,3,2;,
2;3;4,5,6;,
3;3;5,7,6;;
Cool tanks N1, the smaller font size is better to see more of each file in the viewer. Also, I texture in GSL prior to saving/exporting as x. Bz2me seems to correctly write out the texture section, but x2xsi writes it out differently, and as a result doesn't display it properly. Both versions of the xsi produced need to be merged somehow like in winmerge or notepad; that's how I got the threed version to animate after adding the prefix SI_ entry to the x2xsi version in the animationset section. X2xsi doesn't write out this info in the conversion, but it can be added, copied and pasted to the end of the threed file to get things moving.
I believe that the xsi files that both threed and x2xsi by themselves are why no animations are possible; they simply don't comply to what the bzii engine needs to see when one looks at a properly written xsi file from the data pack files.
What I'm doing currently is trying to find a workaround where elements of both files can be selectively swapped to (hopefully) come up with a working bzii xsi animated file. If I can figure it out then I can post a how to do tutorial so that any other modelers can start making animated stuff for the game.
PS: I tried using the isdf power gen. odf, but it didn't work as I think my animated cube didn't conform to the informatin required by the game engine, i.e., my model file contained only one object verses the multiple objects that make up the generator parts. One of the error messages in the resulting av was like unknown icontrol, etc. I've received this kind of error before with other models, but on a brighter note a msh file was produced which in the mesh viewer showed my cube object.
I'm going to try and locate a more appropriate odf to use and make repeat attempts to see what happens in the way of animation...BNG
I have some encouraging news about the project I'm working on for making animated xsi files for the game. I got the cube loaded into the map editor using a modified ODF derived from mcwing01.odf in the data pack; it's a bird looking critter, and it loaded just fine and started circling around on map. I uploaded a zip file to filefront if anybody would like to help me test things out with the hybrid xsi file created from threed, x2xsi, and winmerge. Here's the web link to the file> http://files.filefront.com/mcwingbngzip/;10320623;/fileinfo.html
PS: Could someone please check out the zip file in the map editor and give me some feedback and assistance in figuring out what I should try next as I don't really understand too much about animimation related stuff...BNG
Here's a pic from the game showing the cubes flying around the map. These 2 are team 1 and 2 units. I made a team 0 unit to but it just flew around in a circle, but the other 2 took off on their own paths; don't know why though.
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QuoteX2xsi doesn't write out this info in the conversion, but it can be copied and pasted to the end of the threed file to get things moving.
I don't see this problem when converting .3ds to .x (with 3dex) and then .x to xsi (with x2xsi) Maybe it comes from the version of .x gsl makes.
The .x format has many variations, it is not a well-set nor well-made format, so yes, different apps are able to export it in different, incompatible formats.
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Not only is directx flakey, but so is gsl as well. I did figure out though why the meshvertexcolor entry was added to the x file by the animation settings (had em all selected) in the keyframe editor utility; I un-xed all except move, rotate, and kinematics.
I may monkey around with the vertex option eventually as doesn't bzii use this feature for the scion morph animation thingy. I don't really know what the hell I'm doing, but having quite a lot of fun playing around with the animation controls in gsl. I know that I'm on something good, but have a long while bfore much of it makes any sense....
I started experimenting with mcwing00.odf and it seems well suited for using to try out animations as it only has 2 cubes and a main object, and only 1 anim entry. I replaced the cube xsi with another model that resembles a scorpion looking thing, and it looks a lot better visually.
If i'm not mistaken the boidprocess is made up from a circular loop animation that moves up and down as my scorpion model contains no real animation at all. It looks pretty neat though in the map editor.