Firstly, i'd like to thank and commend all who contributed to the making of PB4. It has come to much people's attention that there is much division among the people who prefere the the newer, bugfixed scout physics and those who's preference is the classic 1.2 physics.
I am not here to state an opinion of which is better. However this is an extremely important issue and should be resolved.
The issue is that the players are being divided between two patches. this means, that on each patch there are less people to play with, and would contribute to the downfall of bz2.
The solution i am proposing is that in the shell, the server should have the option of either using the classic scout physics or the modernized physics.
Ive heard that if this was to be, alot of the physics would have to be redone. I understand that all the pb4 developers have already put in a magnificent effort into pb4, however, this propisition would end the division of 1.2 and 1.3. With the option to allow the flying bug by the server, bz2 would be more populated and to an extent, slow the downfall.
Hey!
Welcome to BZU. :)
Please dont' take anything I say as an attack against you or anyone, but this whole subject has been brought up multiple times and their doesn't seem to be any compromise. I've been hear for five years and tried my hand at resolving the issue. I think everybody has tried at one point or another.
It really comes down to who likes the 1.2 physics and who like the 1.3 physics. There are even some who don't like the exploits in 1.2, but don't like the changes in 1.3 so they stick to 1.2.
It's really to the point now that their are two sub-communities here in BZland and since we can't make them like one patch or the other I've tried to make them both acceptable. :) I mean, I personally have both patches installed and play both when I get the time.
With the Battlezone magazine I make sure both get equal attention.
Now, after my rant, I should answer your question. I believe in 1.3 there is a recycler variant that mimics 1.2 physics. I believe (don't quote me) that some of the 1.2 physics have been re-enabled but need an ODF entry to make them available. They are not on by default. Two to one, someone more knowledgeable will give you a good answer. :)
Again, nice having you here!
Don't forget to check out:
www.bz2md.com
www.timedisruptor.com
www.bz2maps.com
www.overminddl1.com/forum
www.bzcomplex.com/
I think someone can make a recycler varient with 1.2 ish style scouts that do hover LONGER and HIGHER, but I am not sure if GSH will actually add a toddle to be able to use the entirety of 1.2 physics.
One can only hope though :)
Didn't he try to incorperate all of 1.2 physics before and end up breaking the entire build last time?
his most recent attempt seems to work good. just not flying...
The broken physics was the result of merging 1.2 and 1.3's physics into one. The current implementation makes them separate and independent.
I agree with you AC/DC. I would like to see the option, even if no asset was included in 1.3 forcing modders to add it in an unofficial mod.
Quote from: Commando on June 18, 2008, 02:41:37 PM
even if no asset was included in 1.3 forcing modders to add it in an unofficial mod.
Would probably be known as ZST Mega Map Pack 4
With a seperate recycler varient in it.
:) can be made totally compatible with stock.
I just ask that everyone remains calm in this thread and that no person attacks are made.
Yeah, even if it was an unofficial mod that had to be downloaded seperately, I would be willing to make the recycler variant.
Try this 1.2-like Drone out and let me know what you think:
http://files.filefront.com/1+2+Drones7z/;9677635;/fileinfo.html
10 posts and no fighting yet! :-D Lets keep it peaceful. Maybe someone will at least read it if this stays under control.
My personal view:
I would like to see this as an option, just to get people to try 1.3 and have a look at a few of the new features and bug fixes. I talked to some 1.2 vets and a few refused to even TRY it. They explained to me that without the ability to hover, the patch is simply not worth the effort. Stubborn? Yes, but one can understand this, as that is the way they have played for a long long LONG time.
For some people, change is good. Others want the option. This is why a setting (default to off) in the shell that brings back 1.2 physics would be nice. Everyone gets what they want to some extent.
Nope, it's a bona fide bug that gives players who use it an unfair advantage over those who don't.
Having said that, they're more than welcome to use it in their own 1.2 games.
Me, I choose 1.3.
I don't see an issue with it being added as an option as long as the recycler variant isn't included in pb whatever.
As of right now, there are 6 1.2 games and 2 1.3 games. You do the match. For every 3 1.2 games, there is only 1 1.3 game. That isn't even counting all of the players on 1.2. That is only taking into consideration the number of servers.
Right now...
Yeah and right now isnt exactly the best indicator, players can stick to 1.3 or they'll go back to 1.2 over the course of time. Personally, i'm starting to enjoy 1.3 enough to play it more often, though 1.2 is still the patch of choice simply because everyone else is using this (oh, and flying is always fun). Some of the more stubborn vets can be convinced over the course of time to try out PB4, if there is enough servers up and 1.2 just happens to be going through a slow phase. Many will just stick to 1.2 if they can help it. At any rate, PB4 looks to be much more popular with even 1.2 vets than PB3 was. With toggleable 1.2 physics, the entire community i'm sure, will gradually transition over to 1.3. If 1.3 physics are deemed superior, then they will also be transitioned to over the course of time.
Quote from: lucky_foot on June 18, 2008, 01:06:49 PMNow, after my rant, I should answer your question. I believe in 1.3 there is a recycler variant that mimics 1.2 physics. I believe (don't quote me) that some of the 1.2 physics have been re-enabled but need an ODF entry to make them available. They are not on by default. Two to one, someone more knowledgeable will give you a good answer. :)
"Commando's 1.2 Recycler Variant" is supposed to be able to make units which have the same 'feel' as their 1.2 equivalents. I tried it, and it works really good, units are really responsive on the ground. Of course the air physics still feel different since the 1.3 physic causes thrusters to shut off when the unit is in the air.
Quote from: Zero Angel on June 19, 2008, 02:41:15 AM
At any rate, PB4 looks to be much more popular with even 1.2 vets than PB3 was.
This is very true. It has some cool new features that they like, but they just want to see that one more...
Quote from: Zero Angel on June 19, 2008, 02:41:15 AM
With toggleable 1.2 physics, the entire community i'm sure, will gradually transition over to 1.3.
Definetely.
I think that was the whole point it was added, try to blend the two communities together again. :)
Quote from: Ac/dc on June 19, 2008, 06:02:52 AM
Definetely.
Not by your self as 1.3 community.
If you rlly whant to bend thog. You need to work with 1.2 palyers communitys give them what they/we whant. thats a extra patch, or 1.2 integrated iside 1.3.
Since 1.3 players are so certan on one thing,
but bz2 1.0 1.1 1.2 are based on hovering, flying, its cool to have all this(and you know it) and ppl are use to play on 1.2 !
I see a truble, but my super quess is that bz2maps got 1.3 some files allrdy uploaded and mine site too.
And i dont see anyother 1.3 communitys sites supporting, ZST, 1.2, (private sites as TV or mine, yes).
So im not so shure abaut that what you just sayd,
but shure bz2maps will chandge mind abaut supporting 1.3 wery soon to negative anwser for 1.3 players.
Mine site will stay on 1.3 1.2 1.1 1.0 !
Asking the devs to put hovering back in would be like asking EA to add wall glitching back in as an option in Battlefield 2.
"Hey, I'm inside a building shooting at people and they can't hit me! This is fun!"
While you are flying, you can't really defend yourself because you have to aim towards the ground. Once you aim at an atacker, your ability to fly is reduced or eliminated so flying puts you in a very vulnerable position. Unless you hav VIR, you can and will be shot down by someone who knows what he/she is doing.
Even when someone can't be shot down, he/she is less effective then someone not flying since the person's full attention goes to staying airborn. Instead of flying, the same person could be managing his/her base, getting attack squads ready. Instead the person is flying around just being a pest.
You can't do much damage flying either due to the limit in which you can aim.
With a wall hack, you become god-like being able to see someone that has no way to see you back. Giving you the ability to shoot said person as he/she goes around a corner. Flying does not give you an advantage nearly as powerful.
Quote from: Red Devil on June 19, 2008, 02:03:36 PM
Asking the devs to put hovering back in would be like asking EA to add wall glitching back in as an option in Battlefield 2.
"Hey, I'm inside a building shooting at people and they can't hit me! This is fun!"
RD. DONT. I see where you're going with this, and I know whats gonna happen if you keep it up.
We know everyone's opinions on the legitimacy of hovering. This isnt about whether its an exploit or not. That argument has already been done to death, and everyone just keeps saying the same things over and over again and nobodys mind changes.
I'm sorry, but that's just an insult to my intelligence.
We're all gonna have to live with the fact that you think we're cheaters and lamers, and we think you're a noob with no perspective. :-P
(half joking, of course!)
Stop this stupid arguing and play BOTH.
1.2 players can play the more stable version 1.3 with a 1.2 recycler varient with modified odfs wich RD has experimented with and be content with the best they can get.
They can use my space map aircrafts if they want to achive true flying.
They can learn to play true strategy games instead of just building a base and using player thugs to hoverkkill the enemy's base.
Using aircraft class units is not the same as using scouts. The physics for both are much different.
QuoteThey can learn to play true strategy games instead of just building a base and using player thugs to hoverkkill the enemy's base.
This is the exact same line of thinking that RD uses. This opinion has been stated countless times here as well. If I recall correctly, you've come to BZ2MD saying the very same kind of thing and convinced no one, because we all have different perspectives here.
I'm telling you, nobody is going to change their point of view. You included. So don't derail this topic by stating the same opinions that have been stated over and over again on these boards. And I promise i'll refrain from repeating the same crap I always do when this 'debate' is brought up.
Heres what i think. 1.3 players face 1.2 players in a strat then 1.2 players face others in 1.3 strat.
Case closed get over it.
There is no debate over which players are the better players: Vets rule.
Hovering in 1.2 is just fine with me, but just don't try to bring it into 1.3.
Now, back on topic, please. Let's talk about making 1.3 ships feel like 1.2 ships.
I have to say, I only win 10% of the time in 1.2
1.3 however, I am much more adapted to the physics.
Any kind of game to make such a decision would both be futile and just cause a bigger rift because the 1.2 players will be at a handicap in 1.3 and visa versa.
I don't know about that. Spawn kicks my tail pretty darn good in 1.3.
QuoteLet's talk about making 1.3 ships feel like 1.2 ships.
Apart from the flying, warping, pushing scavs around and cheapy-exploits I can't see any massive game affecting difference.
(Not being able to "fly away" from a fight is a very big difference!)
The players who prefer 1.2 mostly have no interest in the mpi/instant side of the game, they play team strat, fast and brutal.
Some would complain if if you fixed the warping! as it has become a big part of their strategy, even though each player cannot actually see that they are doing it.
Those sticking with 1.2 have what they want, Personally I think 1.3* strat is much better than 1.2, shame its so difficult to get a game.
I've seen a lot more 1.3 games lately though, so keep trying. Invite new players and set them up with 1.3 as I do.
If I had access to in this area, this thread would already been closed. Such subject has been discussed at length in the past, no point in dwelling...
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Here's a link to my latest 1.2-like DM Drone. Please give it a whirl and give some feedback, please.
http://files.filefront.com/fvscoutdmzip/;10713818;/fileinfo.html
Here's a link to the ISDF DM Scout:
http://files.filefront.com/ivscoutdmzip/;10714872;/fileinfo.html
ZA, The major problem is exactly what you said, basically.
People are stubborn.
However, I do not like the kind of 1.2 players who either A: won't even try it because of what their friends say, or B: Play for 5 minutes and quit without really trying to get used to it.
Remember: this is about the option, not whether it's an exploit or not. Like ZA said, this has already been established. Read the first (few) post(s), and state your opinion about it. Don't turn this into an evil argument again. I want people to talk, not argue.
Someone try out those DM ships I posted and let me know what you think about the physics.
Quote from: Feared_1 on June 20, 2008, 03:29:20 AM
I want people to talk, not argue.
damn pacifists :-P
Battlezone is unique in a way that there are strange and intresting Bugs that people can use to make a on-line game more intresting. It is true that taking them away can make the game less intresting, and more challenging.
As for the flying bug that keeps popping up one solution to this would be to have a Option in the multiplier setup window to allow "flying" or "Hovering" for players that like this sort of stuff or to turn it off. I agree that some bugs like turrets in pools cannot happen in real life. Also some other bugs that I do not know off, could have the option to enable them if the Server that started the game chooses to.
I know it is a taboo subject that keeps dividing the community, but at the end of the day we all bought the game and love it. So why not give people the choice to do what they want and keep everybody happy all around and not restrict them.
People should be given a choice, I agree.. But at the end of the day, people can choose to stick with bz 1.1 1.2 1.3. Why not add all the (Selectable) options that people like into 1.5
I cannot post this in the other form.... Don't want to keep registering too many forms eather....
Shane
Quote from: General BlackDragon on June 19, 2008, 03:34:35 PM
Stop this stupid arguing and play BOTH.
most of us already do
what about those who want the pb4 fixes as well as the ability to fly? thats what most poeple want
Hmmm, just looked up 'stubborn' in the dictionary and darned if there wasn't a picture of RD in there... :evil:
Quotewhat about those who want the pb4 fixes as well as the ability to fly? thats what most people want
Well DUH... sorry, it's early and I haven't had any coffee yet.
Everyone knows that, but none of us have the right to DEMAND anything from Ken and Nathan, who gave us an incredible amount of work for free. The patch is their work, given freely, and only they have the ability to add or remove things from it.
In the end a heck of a lot of support went into the patch in favor of 1.2 players whether they acknowledge it or not. It could have been even better had those that were in the private beta group toughed out the earlier phases and remained to help with physics and balance, but as it is there's almost nothing out of reach of a halfway decent modder. I'm certain that with good, attitude free feedback someone like Commando could easily make a Recy variant that was very very very (...) very very close to 1.2. :)
-Av-
If they really love 'flying' so much - why not use bloody aircraft?? :wink:
or even better - 0 gravity!!
0 gravity is a bad substitute because you have a hard time returning to the ground. Flying becomes easy, but landing doesn't.
Can an aircraft be made to handle like a scout? Aircraft would again make flying too easy for the vets and that would upset them.
They like flying because it takes skill to successfully pull off. Not any newb can pick a scout then start flying around the map.
Actually in 1.2 any newb COULD just hop in a scout and fly all over the map. It's CONTROLLED hovering that takes skill, and even more skill to actually hurt something while doing so.
I like to use Tribes as an example... in Tribes it was 'skiing' that was the equivalent of BZ2 'flying'.
The first time several Heavies came skiing over a hill and landed on top of our base I thought WTF??? After learning to do it myself I admit it was fun but it ruined the game for me. Nobody ever used aircraft or even bothered to work together, as many matches just became a ton of Heavies skiing right in the front door of your base.
So the Dev team removed it almost completely for Tribes2, to be met with massive whining by those that loved to ski. They put it back in, toned down a bit, but after a period of adjustment everyone was skiing around Heavy again.
Yet another case of a game, the gameplay of which is so clear in the minds of the Devs, being taken in another direction by the Players. I personally wish the Devs had just said "It's a bug, it's gone, deal with it.", but those like me that thought so were a VERY small minority in Tribes.
The situation worsens for a game like BZ2, where the player base is made up of a few, mentally unbalanced and rabidly protective fans. :)
-Av-
Hmm...I haven't been around alot...but I think some of you may have remeber me,..(wargod, BZwargod, BZFeebleeffort and now...welll) in any event..my (formerly knowledgable) opinion.....
I like Avatars dog.
Thank you.
i dont know if this has been said, and im not reading four pages of post, but my PB4 scouts are demented.
they get to aplace, sometimes they start patrolling between two areas and stuff its wierd...
I have an idea.
Let's all just talk, argue, and complain about it instead of *doing* something about it, like testing and giving feedback for those 1.2-like ships I made and posted links to in this thread.
Makes sense to me... :roll:
I have a better idea. We lock this thread (done!) and someone makes a new thread for testing said ships rather than attempt to get the 1.2 players want flying back argument to slow down here.
Don't care what anyone's opinion on it is, don't care what anyone on or off the private beta team says, the developers have called flying a BUG and removed it from stock 1.3.
If you can find a way to put it in that doesn't piss me off, feel free to post it somewhere on this site.
Hint: Things that piss me off include, but may not be limited to, claiming that it isn't BZ2 without flying, anything that makes it impossible to play with someone who does not have said item (such as by replacing stock assets), attacking those that made the decision to remove it, outright being rude, obnoxious, refusing to just leave the what is and is not a bug decisions to the developers, or blaming ME for what the developers decided because I provide this site and/or stand by their decision as the developers. Oh, and I recommend making sure that in game it is clearly labeled as to what it actually does.