there is some discussion going on at Pandemic Studios forums. Thought I'd bring it to your attention.
http://www.pandemicstudios.com/community/viewtopic.php?pid=200757
Veeerrryyy Interesting.
Interesting, but it's probably just another topic started by another die hard.
ya it is feared_1 but I thought I'd let everyone know it was there. I didn't even know pandemic studios had a forum until today.
probably... ui recently posted on the bz2md forums about this
I, honestly, am not sure I would trust Pandemic to do a BZ3 anyway, especially considering who their owners are and the fact they have not made a PC game in some time now (all console stuff now). I would be most expecting an Indie group to make it (like BSer, but he is busy with something else anyway) most as it is truly wanted to be made anyway...
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It will be years till I could do it. I am struggling already with a game of my own design. Still on step 2 of 10000, step one consisting of like 1000 steps itself avoided by the fact I chose to use Ogre3D.
Pandemic does seem to have gone over to the dark side of gaming... consoles are a bit more marketable though nowadays...
I think something like a 'Battlezone 3' will come out of modding some other game engine before an Indy group manages to come up with a fully reallized game... then again the Indie guys are MUCH more driven than any big game company, can work from love of the game rather than pocketbook worries, and aren't restricted in any way by an existing engine. :)
-Av-
What makes a game?
Engine? Got that.
Models? Got them/can make new ones.
Weapons? Can make new ones.
Environment? Can make that.
Sounds? Got them/can make new ones.
Story? Can make that.
VO's? Can make them.
So what are we waiting for?
Oh yeah. Time.
Red Devil, you forgot one thing that we have as well.........
Heart? Yea, we got that.
We love this game!
Dia
Quote from: Red Devil on September 02, 2008, 06:54:52 PM
What makes a game?
Engine? Got that.
Models? Got them/can make new ones.
Weapons? Can make new ones.
Environment? Can make that.
Sounds? Got them/can make new ones.
Story? Can make that.
VO's? Can make them.
So what are we waiting for?
Oh yeah. Time.
You forgot about somehow making it so that people who get a taste of it are hooked for the rest of their lives.
Quote from: Dianoga4 on September 03, 2008, 01:26:42 AM
Red Devil, you forgot one thing that we have as well.........
Heart? Yea, we got that.
We love this game!
Dia
You beat me to it... tho' I would have said 'love' rather than heart, it works out to the same thing. The best games are the ones where whoever made it (not published, MADE) loved it, sunk their heart and soul into it, and worked some magic.
I personally can think of only two games that have done that for me, Battlezone and HALO. They both show a level of vision and committment by the creators that most games can't achieve.
Ticks me off no end that M$ bought HALO, because in order for me to play 2 & 3 I have to get a Vista machine running.
Bleh.
:evil:
And yes, I reallyreallyreally think BZ will never die. It's just that cool...
-Av-
Could you guys legaly make a BZ3 off of the old BZ2 engin?
Not if we want to sell it or make it stand alone. Besides, the BZ2 engine is too old it is taking an incredible amount of work on the part of GSH (since Ken mainly appears in the shadow of the night to change things unexpectedly) to keep it running thus far.
You are able to make a lot of game related things, as long as you do not sell it.
Also, Halo was a very different game before Microsoft bought it, and it was done, it was in final Gold stages, so basically they shelved that game and made a different one with the same engine. Look up the trailer for the original Halo back at E3, no Master Chief, the graphics were notably a little older, etc... But it was done.
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Hmmm, the first one I saw was in Italian and had a firefight between human and Covenant forces on a square spiral ramp. After that the trailer came out showing the human forces attacking some Covenant in an installation. That was the one with "I'm just saying for somewhere nobody's been in 1000 years there's an awful lot of open doors..." then they're ambushed on that same square spiral ramp.
The action moves outside where a soldier manages to grab a Banshee and get away, but is shot down. As he's laying there the Master Chief shows up and kills the Elite, then is told by the soldier on the ground something like "You do exist, we'd hoped...".
Dialog from memory, which isn't as sharp as it used to be... :)
The point I was making is that some games pull together into a cohesive world, and that world strikes a chord with the players. HALO is one, BZ is another. For me Ultima was another such world but it fell apart as Origin did... players change, focus moves, that sort of thing.
Very hard to pull the magic together, harder still to keep it together and/or improve upon it.
-Av-
Just took a look. It was a 1999 trailer for a Mac game called Halo. I think BZ2 actually has it beat as it seems a bit HL1ish. That might be the limits from 1999 and it might be the Mac limits from 1999, not sure, only own 1 Mac and I have not tried it yet.
Overmind wrote:
Quote
I, honestly, am not sure I would trust Pandemic to do a BZ3 anyway, especially considering who their owners are and the fact they have not made a PC game in some time now (all console stuff now)
Correction: we've made plenty recently. Star Wars: Battlefront 1 & 2 (which I worked on) had PC versions. Mercenaries 2 (also worked on) has a PC version, and Mercs2 started hitting retailers on August 31st. Lord of the Rings: Conquest (releasing this fall) has a PC version. Sure, not every title we've released has had a PC version -- mainly the ones out of our Australian office: Destroy All Humans 1 & 2 and Army Men RTS before that. But, to say we've not made PC games is incorrect.
And from what I remember, the console (PS2, original XBox) versions of SW:Battlefront 1 & 2 far out-sold the PC version. It's the same throughout the games industry in general -- console version's sales of the same game are far higher. That's about the ONLY thing that matters to the business side of the games industry -- they don't care about how you might feel about a game, system, or the like. Only cold, hard, cash makes a difference to them. And, because consumer's cash predominantly spent on console games, so does development time and attention. (Yes, World of Warcraft generates a TON of cash for Blizzard, but it's one of the few PC games that does. So, more PC games might be moving towards a subscription model when possible.)
-- GSH
Is this the video you were thinking of OM? It's in the description but I have this old CD from a gaming magazine from 1999 that had this video on it.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=96-6uHB4L2w (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=96-6uHB4L2w)
Dia
Quote from: GSH on September 03, 2008, 09:33:49 PM
-- GSH
I made a long post but it turned into a rant (available here for those that feel up for such a thing (http://overminddl1.com/stuff/Ranting_Post.txt)). Basically though, the games you listed are game types that are saturated in the PC market, there are far too many of those types, thus of course sales are going to be lower (it is hard to sell food to people who have a banquet in front of them). The PC market has shown to be much larger then all the consoles together, and there are far more sells of all PC games then there are sells of all console games with much more money being passed around, most of the PC market has gone online, the retail store is but a sliver now in the PC market, but online the market is booming with such a variety of games that consoles could not hope to currently compare with, as such, there is a lot more money going around in the PC market as well, just not in things that have been saturated for the last twenty years. If companies really did market research and wanted to make money, screw game vision, they would make game types have have a huge community that is known for buying new stuff and switching between games often.... I think I just described the casual game market...
Even if a game is done very well, it can still do wonderfully in an overly saturated market, take the Valve line of games, their profits from just the HL2 series (3 games, PC only at the time when I saw the report) is stated to be much higher then the profits from the Halo series (3 games, considering just the consoles only, the PC versions did not sell well, oversaturated). That is another thing, most console games sell well for about a week, then any profit after that is usually so minuscule most companies do not even consider it when thinking of the profit a game will make, whereas HL2 (a rather old game now) is still selling rather large amounts of units per month (and the money coursing through Steam, which they do not release the amounts of, is no doubt a great amount, especially since they add multiple games a week to it).
Too bad most people do not think, the world would be much better off if they did. I know so many people where if they are forced to think can actually think things through well, they just... do not (people who refuse to think, I personally think they refuse to live, as such... idiots).
Quote from: Dianoga4 on September 03, 2008, 10:04:17 PM
Is this the video you were thinking of OM? It's in the description but I have this old CD from a gaming magazine from 1999 that had this video on it.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=96-6uHB4L2w (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=96-6uHB4L2w)
Dia
Actually this is the last trailer released (http://ca.youtube.com/watch?v=wSq-Jd5c73I) before the engine was scrapped and remade for the xBox. It was a third-person shooter, was very well received, and basically just trashed when Microsoft bought them out. Yours looked earlier. Even before that one though it used to be an RTS. :P
Here is the history of halo: http://ca.youtube.com/watch?v=RN9vO_gRzoI
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Console games are like pop music, they enjoy their few weeks or months in the sun and then are somewhat forgotten. Consoles themselves are more of a 'living room' type gaming experience, or played with a crowd, as opposed to PC games where the crowd is online...
And of course consoles are becoming more like PC's and vice versa... in that consoles are able to save games, access the internet, use DVD content, and download new chapters/levels/characters. PC's are becoming more mainstream for clueless game players with options like Steam and WOW where updates are automatically applied and matches found without them needing to do anything other than start the game.
Which brings us to OM's point that many many players don't want to think... they want to hit an ON button, grab a joystick, and go to town. It's related to non-thinking games outselling thinking games, or twitchers ruining any game that moves toward more thinking and less twitching...
That attitude is WHY the gaming world is so saturated with the same old stuff over and over, with only technological advances and nothing new in gameplay or such... companies that do come out with something new and fresh risk running smack into the wall of indifference and the momentum of most players...
Luckily the future of gaming includes all varieties and platforms... you'll see consoles, hand-helds, PC's... you'll see DVD's, online distribution, cartridges... subscription, lease, purchase... there's room for all of them and more. There's also more options for modders each year, and engines that are more friendly, and better tools... that's why I think in the future some of the most popular games will come from groups of non-professionals using engines created by professionals.
edit: Yes! That's the trailer I remember... "Your destruction is the will of the Gods, and we are their instruments..." :) Although I don't remember HALO ever being listed as being developed for the Mac... guess I'll have to watch that history. :)
(ah, they were joking that the E3 trailer was rendered by a post-production house on Macs in a 3D package...)
-Av-
Ah Hah. Just thought of how I think of Consoles.
I do not hate consoles, I think they are a good idea actually, but rather I see the way they *could* work, rather then they way they *do* work, and most of the work they could do they are capable of doing, but, and this is the key, are artificially limited in what they can do (like the mouse/keyboard thing).
If any of you know about the Jung/Myer-Briggs/Keirsey personality types, I am an INTJ (google just "INTJ" to find info on how I think, it is very accurate, quite surprisingly accurate actually; had to take a test for a job) through and through, and a couple big descriptions of that type is that they must always understand something (fully understand, they do not have to pursue it to the end, but must fully understand it either way), value clarity and efficiency, etc... (I am thinking of making a topic here, I am really getting curious on what types this community primarily is made up of). As such, diminishing the capabilities of a system like that is tantamount to cutting off both of your arms, sure you will still be able to do stuff and get around, but you cannot really do much of anything 'well' beyond running.
Avatar, the people you described at the end are basically the Indie devs (which a lot of those games end up on Steam), they make games for the purpose of fun, not money, and as such they are willing to take tremendous risks in game design. Oddly enough, the casual game market (games marketed to non-gamers) seem to be focused more on intelligence rather then twitch, I have just noticed this... I must research...
Personally, and this is the INTJ in me speaking, I think that people should be able to show a minimum amount of intellect before they are allowed to do anything, else, if this world is as it is now, they should be 'herded' somewhere, or if the world was populated by just INTJ's (there is an INTJ forum out there, they talked about this subject once and this is the consensuses) then without a certain minimum amount of intellect (and intellect can be shown in many ways, all would have to be tested, INTJ's are very thorough and would make sure it is perfect before implementation, and do note, knowledge is not intellect, the intellegence is the ability for someone to reason through something, not what they know, that is why your I.Q. should not change throughout your life, but your knowledge does) the people should just not be allowed to live (INTJ's are very logical, to the point of being morbid at times, but *always* with the intent to make things "better" overall, morality usually does not factor into an INTJ's decision). It was actually a quite interesting topic, basically if the world was made up of just INTJ's, things would be very different, menial jobs (janitorial and such, what INTJ's hate doing) would not be done be a single person their whole life, but rathe everyone would have to donate some specific time every so often to do it, most jobs would not exist (things like commercials do not impact a pure INTJ's buying habits, actually it has a tendency to cause the INTJ to stay away from stated product, so those jobs first of all would not exist, most clothing stores and such would not, etc...), technology would be at a vastly higher level as well as being user-friendly (part of the thing of INTJ's is an intense urge to make everything 'better', if there is some step to some process that we can get rid of somehow, we will figure out how to do it and implement it), clothing would probably not be worn in any place where the weather dictates it would not have to be worn (clothing is generally seen is a waste of time and money in many cases to an INTJ, only currently used due to the current social stigmas attached to it, if those stigmas never existed, then likely would fashionable clothing not have existed either, waste of time, money, and resources), among many other things, was a very long thread.
Oh, and one thing about INTJ's, a common phrase is "A group of INTJ's is an argument" is very correct, not because we do not like how the other thinks, but rather we love coming up with different ways of thinking and doing things, and the best way for us to do that generally involves arguing, even by taking up the point we disagree with, just because we learn a great deal about something. I have 2 friends that are INTJ's (for note, INTJ is the most rare type, making up less then 1% of the population) and anytime we are together for more then ten minutes, we will invariably start arguing, but we can keep at it for hours, never tiring, never stopping until everything, every issue is logically resolved (and we do it about the most weird things, a few nights ago it was about widescreens 16:9 vs. standard 4:3 screens, last month was an especially enjoyable one about the 4D grid-like pattern of the universe according to standard quantum mechanics). Although if we start working on a project together we just fly through it, conversing and matching everything up perfectly. I really do wish everyone was of an INTJ type, the world would be so much more efficient and enjoyable. Guess I should make another topic...
EDIT: Avatar, Halo was originally supposed to be for both Mac and PC for its release in 1999. Who knows, it might have beat Half-Life if Microsoft did not kill it.
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I'm INTJ.
Wow, you guys don't like consols much do yah?
Personaly, I think consols are awsome for FPS and RPG based games... not much else, but I do play a lot of those. I think Battlezone II would actualy be a good candidate for the consols because of it's simple build/control system, yet excessively stratiegic gameplay (well, at least for it's time). I keep wishing they'll bring BZ1 to the Xbox Live Marketplace, but all they got is the cruddy old arcade game for BZ, no RTS component (worst $10 I've ever spent).
That trailor is cool, as I am a Halo nut. I find it odd that everywhere I go, someone is talking about Halo lol. However, it's graphics do have major flaws as well as the voicing. The Chief sounded like a robot and the Covy elites sounded more like flood than shanghelie. The reason Halo ended up on Windows only was because Bungie signed a contract with Microsoft so that they could only make games for Microsoft only. That contract just recently was destroyed, but Bingie is still tight with Microsoft and will likely not be making games for the Mac anytime soon. I can't say the same for Ensamble Studios though, who are making Halo Wars (an RTS version of Halo). Too bad they said that they would not be making a computer version... ever. Yes, it was orriginaly created as an RTS, but as the storyline thickend, was switched to FPS. That's why the vehicles and units on each side match up so well.
And Overmind, I'd like to correct you. This is the evolution of Halo (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NIXBImBq58M).
Anywho, I do like consol games. I have Xbox Live, so the internet thing doesn't really make a difference. I think both PC and Consol have their ups and downs. Basicly:
Consol is for FPS and RPG
PC is for RTS and Economy-based Games (like Roller Coster Tycoon)
And Wii is for fat slobs who don't wanna invest $3.50 in a hula-hoop (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_iYBmAVuBns)
As stated, not that I do not like them, I do not like how they are artificially restricted (as stated, they are completely capable of more, as-is).
And how can you possibly think a gamepad is in any way decent for any kind of fps controls (depends on the rpg, things like modern ones like Oblivian, or ARPG's like Diablo, no, FF style, yea). Gamepad's have slower reaction times, fewer buttons, unable to hit some buttons without taking your thumb off an axis or two (that is just brain-dead design there), etc... Mice are faster, more responsive (relative axis; gamepads have absolute axis, good for flight-sims, bad for fps'), mine has 7 buttons (tempted to get a 9 button one) that all fingers can hit easily and simultaneously if necessary, the keyboard has plenty of buttons and the usual "fps" position for right-handed people they are nicely placed, easy to reach, etc... I logically see no reason how a gamepad would be better for an fps. A gamepad would be very good for flight-sims, space-sims (I have tried it in Freespace2, was pretty decent), but not for anything that requires varying movements from very small to very massive (which a mouse excels at, especially ones like mine where the dpi can change on the fly). I am not even that great at FPS games, but I can twirl around 180 degrees and have the shoot point be on a persons head an less then 150ms (I've been timed, that one friend I mentioned earlier could do it in 60ms), that is just not possible with a gamepad.
I am not sure BZ controls would be good on a gamepad as they sit, too many menu's to go through where you can just tap a couple things quickly to access on a keyboard, would have to use some wierd d-pad thing for it to work half-decent, but that involves taking your thumb off an axis control. :P
Humorous video, although I said history, not evolution. :P
I also did not say there was anything inherently wrong with console games. Take Halo3, the 360 is capable of a mouse/keyboard, the game could easily support it (and will if/when/is it comes to Windows), it is just a case of Microsoft being bastards and specifically not allowing it.
And I (and many people I know) highly disagree with you saying fps is for consoles, just, so... very much not true, and I could start with a rant about why but I think this post is getting long enough. Feel free to poke/prod me into making such a post though if you do not mind the ire from others around here. :P
EDIT: And the Wiimote is awesome, you do not need a Wii for it, just get a good bluetooth hub for your computer and it is great for controlling various things. :P
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Quote from: OvermindDL1 on September 04, 2008, 03:14:14 AM
As stated, not that I do not like them, I do not like how they are artificially restricted (as stated, they are completely capable of more, as-is).
And how can you possibly think a gamepad is in any way decent for any kind of fps controls (depends on the rpg, things like modern ones like Oblivian, or ARPG's like Diablo, no, FF style, yea). Gamepad's have slower reaction times, fewer buttons, unable to hit some buttons without taking your thumb off an axis or two (that is just brain-dead design there), etc...
Cuz it's more comfortable and realistic for those situations than a computer. And you don't need a ton of buttons to run an FPS or RPG. I have COD, Halo, Oblivion, Bad Company, Battlefront, ect and they all work great on a controler.
And mice are hardly faster.
i think mice are faster and more accurate.
im a PC games person, but i cant deny that consoles have their uses. its nice to just put in a disc and play a game straight away with no compatibility issues etc viruses any of that crap.
each has advantages and disadvantages
Wow... I get to ramble a bit here...
I once did the online testing for personality types but don't remember what I ended up as. I was impressed as by my own thinking it nailed me. I have the results in My Docs, I'll check and see what it said.
I also shudder at the thought of a world run by INTJ types... :evil: The problem with them is that they don't know what they don't know... classic 'engineer' type, always trying to make things 'better' when 'better' is SUCH a relative concept. :) They should never go unsupervised and never have positions of real power. :-D :-D :-D :-D
Mouse/Keyboard is more versatile, and I can pwn my console friends in HALO when they play me on a LAN.
Controller is more 'living room' and my console friends can pwn me when we play HALO on a console.
It's all in what you're used to, and what you've worked at becoming good at. I personally hate them for any complex game but they have their places, especially when there's no flat surface around...
From the game side you often can't or soon won't be able to tell which players are on consoles and which are on PC's. (or phones, for that matter)...
From the Publisher side if you can sell something as both console and pc without too much fear of piracy, added expense of development and distribution, then you're making more money and all is good. It's only those games that don't 'devolve' well to a couple of controls that are intrinsically impossible to move to console (like that space game with 100 keys to target something in different ways).
Good thread... (mental note to put a watch on OM & his friends...) :)
-Av-
Definately mouse/keyboard is faster when it comes to controlling the reticle. I like the console for when company comes over, but that's about it. My Xbox gets little use, some Mortal Kombat: Armeggedon, Halo 2 and Flatout 2 time here and there. But I have always liked pc better for more options and faster gameplay. The Xbox 360 is basicly a computer so I don't know why they can't make them come standard with mouse/keyboard configuration or at least the option. Then wouldn't have to worry about piracy, all mods could be submitted to servers for easy download at your own risk just like on the pc. Forums could be viewed from the console while using the browser support. Compatability issues would be forgotten.
I have a couple of Sega Dreamcasts and the mouse and keyboard to go with them. It is too bad more consoles don't have the option because playing Quake3 on the Dreamcast with a keyboard and mouse works great and that's an old system.
I like consoles and have a few different ones but I always find myself on my computer more. I think consoles have their place but I'll probably always love my computer more.
Dia
Quote
I have a couple of Sega Dreamcasts and the mouse and keyboard to go with them. It is too bad more consoles don't have the option because playing Quake3 on the Dreamcast with a keyboard and mouse works great and that's an old system.
Try a PS3 and Unreal 3 -- see http://utforums.epicgames.com/showthread.php?t=574996 (http://utforums.epicgames.com/showthread.php?t=574996) , among other places. Note the 2007 date on the posts.
-- GSH
Well that's good to see. Thanks for posting that GSH. I've been meaning to look up whether any of the newer systems supported keyboard and mouse but never got around to it. I don't have a PS3 and don't think I will be getting one any time soon but I do have an Xbox360. I'm kinda surprised that right off the hop there wasn't some kind of keyboard and mouse available or maybe there was and I just haven't noticed it yet, I'll have to look it up and check it out.
Ugg, just found this, I couldn't imagine using this thing.
(http://blog.seattlepi.nwsource.com/microsoft/library/imkeyboardlarge.jpg)
Dia
haha, oh dear. thats got to be a 3d model right? not a real thing.
i just aksed a silly question i think
It is a 3D model, but it is likely that if not a fun on the side render by some singleton on the internet (not part of a company), there is a working one somewhere.
No, that controller is real. That one friend of mine with the massive TV has one of those. See, the system is begging for real inputs, Microsoft just needs to allow it already (although too late by this point, games would still not support them from earlier). Also, not only is that controller real it is Microsoft made as I recall, not a third-party.
{
EDIT: Yep, I was right, here it is (http://www.walmart.com/catalog/product.do?product_id=7080194)(walmart.com), Microsoft made and all. Part of the standard "Messenger Kit" it seems. *Only* usable for typing messages, in-game use is disallowed.
}
As for mice/gamepads, gamepads are quite obviously slower, just think for once: Gamepads are an absolute axis device, Mice are relative axis device, ergo it is pretty obvious that mice have far greater control and accuracy. For the thinking impaired:
Absolute means that it has defined boundaries, from -1.0 to 1.0 for example. This means if you want to move slowly, you have to move it a little across the axis, not so bad when you have a control that slides over a few feet in length (like the high-end joysticks throttles), but when it is tiny the possible movable area is vastly reduced (like on a gamepad). Multiplication of the value is commonly used to exaggerate the movements (usually called sensitivity in games for some unknown reason), this means if you have it set low then you have wonderful accuracy for things like sniping, but if you need to move fast, even moving the axis to its limit still limits you to a small amount due to the fine control, however, if you increase the multiplier then you can make large fast movements, but accuracy per unit is vastly reduced as the jump between units is increased. It is wonderful for aircraft and such controls as it matches perfectly to the underlying hardware (as you can only move a rudder so far, that would match the limit of the controller, a perfect 1:1 mapping).
Relative means a change over time rather then an absolute position, this means that if there are no changes since the last update it reports zero, if you move a certain distance up then it will report a certain value in a certain axis just for the reported instance since last capture, as such if you set it to a small multiplier then you have detailed accuracy, and instead of needing to wait for the 'cursor' to get to the position you want, once you have practice then you just instinctively know how far you need to move it to move that amount, thus allowing you to 'jump' any amount of distance in as quick a time as you need, meaning you can literally do a 180 in less then a game frame. If you wish to move faster over a shorter distance then you can increase the multiplier, and if you have a 'gaming' mouse (a high DPI mouse, cheap nowadays) your tiny movements for accuracy are not impacted, most gaming mice have buttons that can on-the-fly switch the dpi higher or lower (as my mouse has) if I need higher accuracy over larger movement distances, like sniping, or faster movements over shorter distances, run-n-gunning.
Now, compare this to game types:
Aircraft sim, it has rudders, wings, whatever other things on it, and of all the pieces that can move they have a limit to the amount they can move, hence it matches up perfect with an absolute axis device.
A little top/side-down/etc... platformer (Mario, galaga, etc..), you can walk slow and you can walk fast, but there is an upper limit to how fast you can move, it matches to an absolute axis.
For driving games, the car has a max set speed, and it has a max rotational distance that the wheels can rotate to turn the vehicle, both match an absolute axis device (most commonly a steering wheel).
For an FPS you can move forward/backward/strafe-left/right, you have a max set speed so it matches to an absolute axis device (although most people generally either go very slow, or max speed, nothing in-between, hence why a keyboard works perfect for it since you have walking, and shift-walk-slow or what-not, although there are "claw" devices which are like part of a keyboard on a joystick that you hold like a claw, while you hold the mouse in your other hand, most people prefer keyboards though over a claw due to the fact it requires fewer movements), however turning around in an FPS has no bounds, you could rotate a hundred-thousand times if you want, no limit, the only factors are the speed you want to do it at and the point you want to get to (angle of direction and what-not), both of which are bad for absolute axis because the axis defines a boundary, meaning that regardless of setup you will *always* be limited in speed, and second, because an absolute axis moves things over time, it will always take some amount of time to get to the exact point you wish to look at, compare this with a relative axis device which can move at any speed, and with surprisingly little practice (with something actually trying, there are a few little games designed to practice on that work quite well, but most practice just by playing normal FPS's) you can get to the point that with your exact mouse (every mouse is slightly different, my game playing is impacted if I play on any of my friend's computers for example, although I get 'in-the-groove' fast enough, I usually just bring my own mouse and keyboard if I intend to play elsewhere), knowing exactly how its distances are setup, its accuracy, and that is when you see those PC FPSers able to just insta-snap their reticle to a persons head the second it is in view. After all, think about it, in real-life are you going to slower turn around to shoot at someone shooting at you? Heck no, you are going to whirl around near instantly and blow his head off before he does the same to you, cannot do that with a gamepad.
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Quote from: Dianoga4 on September 04, 2008, 05:38:38 PM
Well that's good to see. Thanks for posting that GSH. I've been meaning to look up whether any of the newer systems supported keyboard and mouse but never got around to it. I don't have a PS3 and don't think I will be getting one any time soon but I do have an Xbox360. I'm kinda surprised that right off the hop there wasn't some kind of keyboard and mouse available or maybe there was and I just haven't noticed it yet, I'll have to look it up and check it out.
Ugg, just found this, I couldn't imagine using this thing.
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Dia
I have that. I don't keep the keyboard plugged in cuz it drains the batteries, but it is actualy very comfortable as, supprisingly, nobody actualy puts their hands where the keyboard is.
And guys, I must say that as a hardcore Consol-FPS player, I find the keyboard/mouse combo very uncomfortable and unrealistic. It just doesn't feel right to click when you should be pulling a trigger.
The only game i would always use a game pad for is GTA IV. admitedly the game could be massively expanded on a computer (so long as you have a 9.0Ghz processing speed, an incredible video + sound card and about 80gb of ram)
I just sometimes find it nice to plug the xbox in and drive around in a life-size city with so much to do. it can be good fun. and i dont have to worry about my antivirus slowing things down etc all that jazz. its nice to chill out like that.
other than that, im a computer man
Pulling a trigger is still clicking you know. :P
And there are mouse of all shapes, you do not have to have the normal design one, there are upright ones, I saw one that looks like a gun, etc... Remember, this is not a console, you can actually have variety.
My main irritant with gamepads is they become so painful after about ten minutes, holding my hands in that 90degree angle is painful, whereas I can keep my hands flat (like keyboard style) for a good 3 days straight (and have... many times...).
Anti-virus, bah, kill that thing whenever you do something intensive, like gaming, or compiling (especially compiling, I do not keep an AV running just because one running will turn a compile from a 45 minute job to a 4.5 hour job... ack...).
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Quote from: OvermindDL1
Pulling a trigger is still clicking you know. :P
And there are mouse of all shapes, you do not have to have the normal design one, there are upright ones, I saw one that looks like a gun, etc... Remember, this is not a console, you can actually have variety.
I'd really rather not pay extra for a cool gun mouse, and the clicking thing doesn't have the same feel as shooting. Can you honestly say that clicking on a mouse or pressing spacebar feels the same as pulling a trigger? I sure don't think so.
Everyone is going to have their own preference and that's fine, some like consoles over computers and some are the opposite.
In response to your last post CivBase, in my opinion, clicking a mouse or spacebar doesn't give that feeling of pulling a trigger but neither does pulling those trigger buttons on the game consoles. I like playing the Halo games for example, I have all three but I don't get that feeling of pulling a gun trigger from the Xbox controller especially when in other games the same trigger buttons are used for other things as well.
I was watching a video game review show last week and they were talking about UT3 on the PS3. They said the game was really good and all but they did also mention that UT3 will always rule on the computer more then the consoles just because of the use of the mouse and keyboard. I've heard it said many times before on different shows that first person shooters were made more for computers than they were for consoles. You just have quicker response for things like turning around, you can be alot more accurate faster and you have alot more buttons to customize to what you like.
Again these are my opinions. I'm not trying or thinking I'm going to change anyone's mind here, just giving my opinion.
Dia
Since you asked, no, clicking a mouse does not feel like pulling a trigger, but then again, neither do the 360/ps3 gamepads. The gamepads I fight with, painful, awkward button layout, you have to pick and choose what you can press at once (want to turn and jump at the same time, hah, fat chance), whereas with the keyboard/mouse I can have everything setup perfectly so that I can hit anything I need at any time, as well as with the mouse it feels more like a streamlined interface, do not need to move your fingers as far (barely need them to twitch actually, cannot say that about the 360/ps3 gamepads), just takes a lot less conscious thought overall.
And I cannot say I have ever used the spacebar for an attack, what game are you talking about?
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Quote from: OvermindDL1 on September 05, 2008, 02:18:11 AM
Since you asked, no, clicking a mouse does not feel like pulling a trigger, but then again, neither do the 360/ps3 gamepads. The gamepads I fight with, painful, awkward button layout, you have to pick and choose what you can press at once (want to turn and jump at the same time, hah, fat chance), whereas with the keyboard/mouse I can have everything setup perfectly so that I can hit anything I need at any time, as well as with the mouse it feels more like a streamlined interface, do not need to move your fingers as far (barely need them to twitch actually, cannot say that about the 360/ps3 gamepads), just takes a lot less conscious thought overall.
And I cannot say I have ever used the spacebar for an attack, what game are you talking about?
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Most games use spacebar as an alternative fire button.
You obviously don't play consol games if you think the layout is acward. Everything takes time to get used to, you can't honestly tell me that you were typing at 80wpm when you first started using a computer. No, you probably pecked at buttons like most people do as beginners (in fact, I did that for almost 5 years of computers; very slow).
While many things do just take getting used to, some people just can't stand the use of a gamepad. Nothing against the console, but I think that, especially on FPS games, there should be an option for keyboard and mouse, instead of gamepad. ZP's Turok review made a good point regarding this.
VSMIT.
I've never seen any non-dos fps game yet that uses a spacebar as a fire of any sort, usually something like an action button (before that default changed to "e") or jump (that is the common spacebar now), what game are you referring to?
I grew up with PC's (father as a head IT at a phone company, and an unending supply of parts tends to do that, I never even played outside, on playgrounds, etc... nothing, was always on a computer, I still have my first 'real' pc, an IBM 80x88 that I eventually put a 10 meg hard drive in, my first 'computer' though was a Commodore Vic20 (the first mainstream/public Commodore that failed miserably) where I learned assembler with a memory cartridge, memory poker, and a very thick book), so I cannot remember a time where I did not type fast, I can easily exceed 120 when I get going well. As for consoles, I never owned one until recently, but practically all my friends did (Nintendo, atari, playstation, etc... and all that) so I got plenty of use with them, the gamepad was always uncomfortable because of the weird angle my hand has to be at to use it (my hands like to rest flat, like on a table, keeping them angled 90 degrees becomes painful after a short time), so yes, with well over 20 years of experience with gamepads, I can say they truly suck as a controlling medium in the vast majority of games, and I can list the reasons why, again, if you so wish.
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surely this is an OT topic now :P?
Quote from: OvermindDL1 on September 07, 2008, 06:48:14 AM
I've never seen any non-dos fps game yet that uses a spacebar as a fire of any sort, usually something like an action button (before that default changed to "e") or jump (that is the common spacebar now), what game are you referring to?
Marathon, Medal of Honor: Allied Assault, I think Halo and Battlefield use it too... but I forget on those.
Change that "dos fps" to "dos-era fps" since I was referring to time period and not platform.
First of all, marathon is dos-era (very dos era), no mouse support first of all, and it was for Mac.
MoH is very standard, mouse look, click is fire, space is jump, etc... Space most definitely does not fire (I just launched the game to check, been years).
Halo is again, very standard, mouse look, click is fire, space is jump, etc... Space most definitely does not fire.
I know of no game called battlefield (and a quick google search proved fruitless, the name is too generic). If however you are talking about the Battlefield series, all of the games in the series have identical basic controls, the oldest of which is Battlefield 1942, again, very standard, mouse look, click is fire, space is jump, etc... Space most definitely does not fire.
So again, which non-dos era fps games do you shoot by hitting space?
And yes, OT now, especially since we now have an OT board too, moving.
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Quote from: OvermindDL1 on September 08, 2008, 07:10:56 PM
Change that "dos fps" to "dos-era fps" since I was referring to time period and not platform.
First of all, marathon is dos-era (very dos era), no mouse support first of all, and it was for Mac.
MoH is very standard, mouse look, click is fire, space is jump, etc... Space most definitely does not fire (I just launched the game to check, been years).
Halo is again, very standard, mouse look, click is fire, space is jump, etc... Space most definitely does not fire.
I know of no game called battlefield (and a quick google search proved fruitless, the name is too generic). If however you are talking about the Battlefield series, all of the games in the series have identical basic controls, the oldest of which is Battlefield 1942, again, very standard, mouse look, click is fire, space is jump, etc... Space most definitely does not fire.
So again, which non-dos era fps games do you shoot by hitting space?
And yes, OT now, especially since we now have an OT board too, moving.
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Seriously? I swear I've played FPS games on the comp with space fire! Oh well... and yah, I was refuring to the Battlefield series.
MoH doesn't have space fire? Man... you sure? maby I just got the keyboard prefs mixed up (I've had it forever and a half).
Oh well, you win. :roll:
Quote from: OvermindDL1 on September 04, 2008, 12:45:39 AM
I really do wish everyone was of an INTJ type, the world would be so much more efficient and enjoyable. Guess I should make another topic...
Ummm...
I think it should be this.
QuoteI really do wish everyone were of an INTJ type
But I am not sure. Feedback plx.
was looks right, but when I think about it?
Quote from: Red Devil on September 02, 2008, 06:54:52 PM
What makes a game?
Engine? no
Models? yes
Weapons? yes
Environment? yes
Sounds? yes
Story? yes
VO's? maybe
So what are we waiting for?
Oh yeah. Time.
fixed
So engine is not important? Well, let's do it in the old doom engine, easy to make things in it. :)
(Not nitpicking the rest since it should be referencing BZ3 specific things).
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I bet those 8 horizontal views plus animations of each monster were actually very hard to make. :-D
so........... I only kinda know what an engin is, can I haz a better description of it. Alls I really know is that it is the basic foundation of the game, but I have no clue how it works. Could you guys make your own?
The engine is the codebase that runs the logic, whereas the logic is the game specific code, the engine does everything else, from managing sounds, rendering everything, handling inputs, networking/multiplayer, etc... etc...
They are easy to make, very hard to make well, and always takes a lot of time.
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Quote from: OvermindDL1 on September 14, 2008, 10:21:42 PM
The engine is the codebase that runs the logic, whereas the logic is the game specific code, the engine does everything else, from managing sounds, rendering everything, handling inputs, networking/multiplayer, etc... etc...
They are easy to make, very hard to make well, and always takes a lot of time.
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so how much time? hours? days? weeks? years?
Think of it this way: The engine for Infinity: The Quest for Earth was started in late 2004/early 2005. It's still not finished yet. But it is a much more sophisticated engine than most.
VSMIT.
Depends on complexity, how much of the code base you are taking from elsewhere, how many people are working on it, a ton of factors...
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arnt most engines modified from existing ones nowadays?
Actually, recently (past 3 or so years), there has been a rather large amount of new engines from non-existing code-bases pop up; been rather surprising.
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Quote from: OvermindDL1 on September 14, 2008, 01:46:04 PM
So engine is not important? Well, let's do it in the old doom engine, easy to make things in it. :)
On the contrary OM..
I think the engine is the only thing that would prove to be a "cop out" in the end.
I mean if you want to make the game something people can get lost in like they did in the two previous installments of bz..
a mear theme isn't going to cut it imho.
although you could argue content placed on an engine packaged into a game is nothing else but a theme..
but battlezone really does not go well on any tried tested and true engine i've seen out there thus far.
ut3 hl2 bf2 h3 all have pretty big problems if they tried to be battlezone, is all i'm sayin...
with pixel shading 3.0 and parallel mapping the way it is now, i'd half expect a every day game of bz3 to look like a cut from the CG intro of halo generals :)
hopefully not the unfortunate center of a "the escapist, Zero Punctuation" review, altho they are friggin hilarious.
Here is an open source game engine I've been messing with: http://www.flatredball.com/frb/
Been working on a orthogonal board game for my own amusement. I have very little exposure to other engines so I can't say if it is the bee's knees or not, but it does what I need and there are lots of people working on it.
Centerline...
Just to comment and give an example in regards to creating a new game engine, a bunch of people are recreating the Morrowind game engine using Ogre. Here's a link for those interested.
http://www.ogre3d.org/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=41897&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=0&sid=37a351e0f0ee1c2b*stupid*6060c7c53cc7
Point being, if several guys here were interested enough, and knew what they were doing, I think it would be well worth the time and effort to recreate BZ2's engine.