I would hav made a map but i didnt know until now that it was thanks giving for US but THANKS GIVING ANYWAYS!
Happy Thanksgiving to all. We're having 16lb. turkey, yams, broccoli cheese casserole, green bean casserole, home made rolls, 2 dozen deviled eggs, cranberry sauce, chocolate pie, pumkin pie and even a birthday cake for my brother.
I've always wondered... who are you giving thanks to, and what for?
You're thanking us indians, for taking our land. And subjecting us to years of oppression.
Rise my brothers rise!
:-D
I am of course only HALF kidding. :mrgreen:
Quote from: Zero Angel on November 27, 2008, 05:47:28 PM
You're thanking us indians, for taking our land. And subjecting us to years of oppression.
Rise my brothers rise!
:-D
I am of course only HALF kidding. :mrgreen:
its not indians cause indians r from india not north america they r called natives, or fist nations
Quote from: Zero Angel on November 27, 2008, 05:47:28 PM
You're thanking us indians, for taking our land. And subjecting us to years of oppression.
Rise my brothers rise!
:-D
I am of course only HALF kidding. :mrgreen:
Actually, the truth about thanks giving is thus:
Yes the Native Americans helped, but no, the settlers were not inept as we were left to believe. This is the "white man came with disease and nothing else and preyed on the natives" story that we are fed today to make us hate ourselves.
Here is a variant of the true story I found, not quite what I've heard but close: http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1742553/posts
QuoteSo in essence there was, thanks to the Indians, because they taught us how to skin beavers and how to plant corn when we arrived, but the real Thanksgiving was thanking the Lord for guidance and plenty -- and once they reformed their system and got rid of the communal bottle and started what was essentially free market capitalism, they produced more than they could possibly consume, and they invited the Indians to dinner, and voila, we got Thanksgiving, and that's what it was: inviting the Indians to dinner and giving thanks for all the plenty is the true story of Thanksgiving.
Um... if so, why don't we have a thanksgiving day in Australia to commend the Aboriginals for giving us their land? .... Oh thats right, we took it and killed nearly all of them.
We are so arrogant that we didn't even apologise until the start of this year.
Anyway - happy thanksgiving to all you yanks.
Quote from: bigbadbogie on November 27, 2008, 08:39:24 PM
Um... if so, why don't we have a thanksgiving day in Australia to commend the Aboriginals for giving us their land? .... Oh thats right, we took it and killed nearly all of them.
We are so arrogant that we didn't even apologise until the start of this year.
Anyway - happy thanksgiving to all you yanks.
Modern Australia started as all criminals anyway, so no worries about that.
Not ALL, allot of the people got shipped over there just for being poor and lower class or orphans or basically anyone who seemed to be making Great Britain look untidy to the stuck up privileged ruling class of the time, times have changed, now the stuck up privileged ruling class have to import poor people to do the work natives wont do for virtually nothing.
Us brits used to be very much up ourselves.
Quote from: Nielk1 on November 27, 2008, 08:07:13 PM
This is the "white man came with disease and nothing else and preyed on the natives" story that we are fed today to make us hate ourselves
What would be the rationale for doing that?
Quote from: Nielk1 on November 27, 2008, 08:57:32 PM
Modern Australia started as all criminals anyway, so no worries about that.
Ironic that a country who's origins are of genocide and destruction, has now virtually banned conflict and firearms.
We jolt at the very thought of violence here now.
Quote from: bigbadbogie on November 27, 2008, 09:37:24 PM
Ironic that a country who's origins are of genocide and destruction, has now virtually banned conflict and firearms.
We jolt at the very thought of violence here now.
The evolution of countries is interesting isn't it.
What I find interesting is over here we are over hyping the negatives of our history instead of what those who write history normally do.
Answer my question NK1. Assumptions that possess no rationale are irrational -- assumptions which lack proof are empty. Do you or do you not wish to get into a historical debate with me? Or are you just going to sling around around irrational assumptions because you cant handle the truth?
Touched a nerve, huh?
Somewhat. Its more the fact that NK1 made an assumption which I perceived as irrational (without basis), I asked him to clarify, he stuck his fingers in his ears and went LALALALALA.
Anyways, as I was asking:
Quote from: Nielk1 on November 27, 2008, 08:07:13 PM
This is the "white man came with disease and nothing else and preyed on the natives" story that we are fed today to make us hate ourselves
What would be the rationale for doing that?
Ah, Thanksgiving. Trust the early Americans to come up with a holiday about overeating ;)
Quote from: Zero Angel on November 27, 2008, 10:33:01 PM
Somewhat. Its more the fact that NK1 made an assumption which I perceived as irrational (without basis), I asked him to clarify, he stuck his fingers in his ears and went LALALALALA.
WTF are you talking about?!?! IT'S THANKSGIVING! I was off, ya know, EATING, talking with my FAMILY? I can't respond to every little post on the damn board. I mean, what is your problem?
The rational? To make us think we can't be left to ourselves and allow the government to take full control of our lives. It is a common fear right now that most ppl likely got without ACCUSING ME OF IGNORING THEM!
God dammit, think for a second before you start accusations and pointing fingers.
My thanksgiving sucked ass and I come back here to this hoot! I am
sooooo sowry I could not drop everything and tell you why. I was a bit more worried about preventing BBB from going off on me for a comment I made in the 2 seconds I was online (after recalling another Zero Punctuation were Yahtzee again made references to Australia's criminal past), and I didn't even see your god damn post asking anyway.
So F*CK off.
I apologize for exploding, bad day, nation down the tube, etc.
I actually exploded on Steeveeo last night in chat instead of the other way around.
Relax, take a deep breath...
Quote from: Zero Angel on November 27, 2008, 10:33:01 PM
What would be the rationale for doing that?
If I could attempt to answer that question, I'd think that we came up with that story in order to attempt to compensate for all of the things we have done to Natives over the history of the United States. By making it seem like we could do nothing and the Natives who helped taught us everything, it makes the ones who helped kill them seem even more inhumane, and makes us see them, not as heroes, but as villains.
Although I could just be coming up with this out of nowhere. I don't really know.
VSMIT.
Yeah, but what would be the rationale for villainizing ones own race? History is, after all, written by the victors. And it is rare for the victors to write negative things about themselves. A statement like "it was written to make us feel bad about ourselves" to me sounds stupid because why would anyone in their right mind do that without any kind of rationale?
It seems to be the agenda, rather, to sanitize history. Hence the thanksgiving story, but lack of cold, hard truths such as the deliberate and nearly successful attempts to wipe out the native population through the distribution of smallpox infected blankets in the 1700's which wiped out anywhere from 80 to 95% of the population (though much of this smallpox was naturally spread, blankets were actually employed to help it along -- as aboriginal populations had no resistance to smallpox) -- as well as the treaties, which ended up isolating bands of indians and cutting them off of trade and resources outside of their allotted areas (since indians were not allowed to leave their reserves, on penalty of death).
QuoteWhat would be the rationale for doing that?
If I could attempt to answer that question, I'd think that we came up with that story in order to attempt to compensate for all of the things we have done to Natives over the history of the United States. By making it seem like we could do nothing and the Natives who helped taught us everything, it makes the ones who helped kill them seem even more inhumane, and makes us see them, not as heroes, but as villains.
Although I could just be coming up with this out of nowhere. I don't really know.
VSMIT.
It has been also passed down through history that the Europeans came as and were welcomed as friends, through not only commonly-accepted historical sources, but through the oral tradition of my local community. Hence the thanksgiving story, which seems rather plausable to me.
<shiftyeyes>Its a conspiracy</shiftyeyes>
Quote from: Nielk1 on November 28, 2008, 04:19:14 AM
The rational? To make us think we can't be left to ourselves and allow the government to take full control of our lives. It is a common fear right now that most ppl likely got...
Still, those who do not learn from history are doomed to repeat it. Every time a more advanced culture 'meets' a less advanced culture the less advanced one is destroyed. Time and time again we've seen this here on Earth...
And yet we keep beaming "Look at us! We're over here!" out into space.
Huh... go figure.
:evil:
-Av-
We hope it is only a human tendency that does that. :)
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Quote from: Avatar on November 29, 2008, 03:20:06 PM
And yet we keep beaming "Look at us! We're over here!" out into space.
Huh... go figure.
:evil:
You are assuming that we aren't the more advanced side.
Let's be honest... if they find us and come over to pay us a visit (good intentions or not), who's more advanced?
Go figure.
They may have more advanced vehicles, but we could have better weapons.
You'd think that one would lead to the other, wouldn't you? Nuclear weaponary, nuclear drive on submarines. Maybe the same applies to other things?
It did for us, but that is only because we wanted it to.
If an alien species was obsessed with speed, rather than war, then they would not have bothered to make weapons as they are of no use to them.
The only way that another species could ever get to us is if they were obsessed with speed.
OK, OK...
how the hell did we get from thanksgiving to what the threat from anything out there is?
Quote from: Avatar on November 29, 2008, 03:20:06 PM
Still, those who do not learn from history are doomed to repeat it. Every time a more advanced culture 'meets' a less advanced culture the less advanced one is destroyed. Time and time again we've seen this here on Earth...
And yet we keep beaming "Look at us! We're over here!" out into space.
Huh... go figure.
:evil:
-Av-
That's how.
I'm personally tired of hearing that humans are violent, ignorant destroyers. Sure people are good at killing each other, but they're also good at many other things. Also, "Alien" doesn't nessecarily mean "technologically advanced"'. We have the theoretical technology for interplanetary travel RIGHT NOW. We just don't have the funding or interest in expanding on it.
I'm also tired of people generalizing the actions and interests of governments and elite individuals as "we". How many of your neighbours would want to creat a weapon that could vaporise cities? How many average people want to go to mars? How many people want to discover the origins of the universe? I'd say a variable amount, but not everybody. And I'd say considerably less actually do or attempt to do these things.
I'm also tired of people forgetting that humanity is made up of INDIVIDUALS, with their own interests. Society? Only exists in your head. That society is composed of many different people who don't know, care about, or work with, everybody else. I see people refer to humaity as "we' and it's like everybody's faceless. It's just a mass of bodies who in the context given, are all after the same thing.
Whatever our morale intentions, we always look out for number 1 first. And that means kill everything that immediately threatens us.
If someone is pointing a gun at your head, you will not be thinking about a nuclear war that could happen if your country was potentially attacked sometime in the future.
We have had the technology for interplanetary travel for decades, yet the people who could make it happen seem more interested in sitting on their fat arses with pockets full of cash, gloating to everybody that sees them and pretending to be important.
Every child wants to be an astronaut, until they grow up and learn that it takes decades of hard work and training. That is the true face of humanity.
There's that "we" again. Selfless acts occur, rendering the argument that people only look out for themselves fallacious.
Ok. You win.
0.0001% of humanity will upon a single occasion, do something not entirely selfish.
Good enough for me. As long as someone somewhere is doing it, I still have faith in people.
What we call intelligence, that is supposed to make us the most important life form. In reality, what makes us important is compassion. Human compassion, as many Scifi Movies point out, if what can be called proof of the soul. This compassion gives us what we call a moral standing, which although flawed, helps to perpetuate the idea of helping others selflessly. The thing that gets in the way is not "Human Nature" but nature it self. The drive to survive can make us cruel and egocentric. The human aspect of this is greed for money, but as money is technically an alternative for supplies, we are simply perpetuating the ensurement of our personal survival as animals do in fighting over food (even if they have a full stock of food right at home).
Pretty much agree with NK1. I just want to add that the drive to survive is one of our baser instincts. However, we must have a sufficient amount of this before we can cultivate the higher ideals. Not money, but our perception of security, which is sometimes derived from the possession of it (in reality, nobody really believes they're rich -- people think that in order to be rich, they must possess twice of what they have now). Anyways, one who struggles to survive, is not likely to use compassion effectively until he is secure in his position. Look at countries such as Switzerland and Denmark, they are generally regarded as stable nations with moderate governments (high social freedom, moderately high economic freedom) -- they are also some of the highest ranked nations on how happy its citizens perceive themselves to be. Countries such as Zimbabwe, which do not possess a stable government or economy, and contain restrictive governments are ranked near the bottom. An exception to this is China, which is ranked somewhere near the middle (though the site admits some sampling bias, where the poor and illiterate were not tested thoroughly).
http://worlddatabaseofhappiness.eur.nl/