Every now and then someone posts how stupid the whole "Walker" technology is... which casts a shadow over games like BZ2, Mechwarrior, or any game that has giant, multi-legged robotic machines in it.
I have to admit that, while it feels amazingly primitive, the whole concept of giant walkers is somehow very attractive to me. I know the Japanese love them, from GITS to Evangelion to Big O, their anime is full of them... (watching Lionbarrel now, good mechs...) Many sci-fi type games give at the very least a nod to Walkers, including them even if the game revolves around infantry combat, or hovercraft... I know my favorite BZ2 unit, the Krahanos, gives me goosebumps when I lead a squad of them into battle... :)
The real question is, does such technology make sense? Why, if you can hover, would you need legs? And why, if you can't hover, would legs be better than wheels or treads?
Now, in BZ/BZ2 the use of Walkers is explained by the limits of biometal hovering. When a unit gets too massive it can't hover anymore, so the Ancient Cthonians used Walker technology for their most massive creations.
Many other movies and games show giant walkers as well, so the 'larger means leggier' rule of thumb does seem to hold. If the technology has such a limit then it makes sense to have something other than hovercraft.
Still, why would legs be better than wheels or treads? To answer this I give you "Big Dog":
http://www.bostondynamics.com/content/sec.php?section=BigDog
I laughed out loud when I saw this, not out of derision but out of the joy of seeing the technology actually working... :) Watch closely when someone tries to kick Big Dog over, or when it walks on ice. I found that very cool.
As to why legs instead of wheels or treads, watch when it climbs the hill of broken cinder blocks, or through the valley of small rocks and boulders. I agree that treads and wheels can do a decent job of making over that type of terrain, but as someone who used to be an avid off-roader I can attest to the number of rims I bent, tires I blew, and times I scraped my frame, bent break lines, and blew U-joints that it's very hard on that technology.
Look at Big Dog, and realize it's being done with hydraulics and simple sensors. Consider how incredibly crude it is, how much of a first step it is, and where it can go from here. Imagine something a decade from now, running over that broken terrain like a giant daddy-long-legs spider, dodging and jumping and scrambling up and down cliff walls, all the while firing rockets or big cannons or miniguns or heck, even tossing grenades with a few extra tendrils... yeeeeha!
Anyway, to me walkers are a very logical extension to the techology of war. At it's most crude you'd have the Mech's lumbering along on two legs, overheating and spewing rockets/bullets/mortars/shells. At the other end of the spectrum you'd have the Matrix Squiddies, hovering, flying, leaping, tearing, all teeth and tendrils making up the ultimate killing machine. Inbetween would be every other walker in every other game and movie ever made...
:)
-Av-
That reminds me a lot of the Half-Life 2 Episode 2 mini-strider. I wonder where valve got the idea for their design :).
Impressive.
Copying evolutions proven designs has to be the way to do it, for a while there when it slipped on the ice, I thought, oh hang, on its just 2 Japanese guys with their heads in a box. :-D.
They really need some silent motor technology.
Worrying though, because you just know we will only make these things to kill people...
Lets hope its still a long time before we figure out synthetic intelligence.
lol :)
awsome
bigdog needs a sattle
Or, they have just reinvented the donkey (mule) except now it runs on petrol instead of grass!
L
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:lol:
That has to be the most hilarious thing I've seen in months. How frightening it would be if something like this crashed through your living room window and started stomping around. HAHAHA.
I do admit it, though, that thing's pretty awesome.
(Uh oh, BigDog has FOUR legs. The ISDF Walker has 2, and the Scion Mauler has like 80.)
Quote from: Commando on December 29, 2008, 11:31:23 PMThat reminds me a lot of the Half-Life 2 Episode 2 mini-strider. I wonder where valve got the idea for their design :).
The first time I saw that Combine strider, it looked a lot like a daddylonglegs, but it also reminded me of the "Martian" tripod in the latest rendition of 'War of the Worlds' (with Tom Cruise).
Quote from: mrtwosheds on December 30, 2008, 12:55:17 AMWorrying though, because you just know we will only make these things to kill people...
"The program is funded by the Defense Advanced Research Project Agency (DARPA)." (end of bostondynamic frontpage)
I guess that sums it up. :wink:
Quote from: mrtwosheds on December 30, 2008, 12:55:17 AMLets hope its still a long time before we figure out synthetic intelligence.
The fact that the current military has robot drones codenamed/nicknamed Terminators (and Predators) is like foresight from hindsight born out of sci-fi. So for now, these 'droids' are all telepresence, but yeah AI is surely on the horizon. I'm sure there will be a killswitch if the thing goes nuts, heh, but it will eventually figure that out on its own. :-D
TV posted that awhile back. :-)
Bigdog Beta Version: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VXJZVZFRFJc :-D
Just realised Commando beat me to the Combine Hunter synth thing... damn him... The legs certainly do look similar.
It makes some seance if you build it right. I haven't really had problems with mechs until Halo Wars, which now has a mech with the sole purpose of punching tanks (no guns at all).
That's very cool! Have they tested how it handles recoil from twin assault blast cannons? :P
That second video knocked my socks off. So funny. I e-mailed both links to some of my people, couldn't let that pass.
That is so obvious... saw straight through it on the second vid (which I've only just seen)
Any chance of it looking like BigDog?
On a side note... anybody fancy designing a Combine race? :lol:
Why walkers? cos their so much fun!
Look what I gave the Emperor for Christmas.
(http://www.bzcomplex.com/gallery/albums/userpics/10062/crawler1.png)
The head part (the dalek on a ball) rotates 180 degrees and can fire straight up too, still needs a bit more work.
That's a pretty cool walker and yes, once I figured out how to get them to work, I started liking walkers more myself as well.
Dia
I think it's very hard to balance a brand new Walker for a mod... The Krahanos is basically an Attilla, while the Drath is very Mauler-like. I'm not just talking about looks, I mean what they're supposed to do and how they're supposed to do it, in the game.
The Krahanos is a walking GT, tall, slow, very powerful, but vulnerable to a mortars or fast, light, strafing enemy.
The Drath is fairly quick, dark, low, and just runs up and eats your GT's before you even know they're nearby.
I've tried to make my Titans, which have a LOT of Walkers, a little different... The Behemoth is almost a building it moves so slowly and is pretty much invulnerable and all-powerful, so you have to do something to stop it other than attack it. (good for plot points)
The Fireworm is low and slow, but good against anything because it just makes a fog of fire around itself so you have to attack from a distance.
The Tripod is a goof, tall and fast and lightly powered/armored. It's a rapid strike unit for field use, running out and eating a couple of Scavs or Scouts and then high-tailing it back to base. You might even let it eat you because you'll be laughing at it running around like crazy. Then again it's very low poly, paths independantly, so there are usually dozens of them running around and it might be more effective than it looks.
IOW I'd love to see some Walkers that fill unusual roles on the battlefield... not all of them have to be Attillas or Maulers... something like the 'Landmaster' I made for GAIPS can be an effective unit while not being an Attilla or Mauler...
-Av-
Sounds like Av has been BUSY. :-)
I like that Strider in HL2. Dog, too.
Naw, the Titans have been pretty much done for ages. Haven't had much time for anything fun lately. Now that the weather has settled and the Holidays are done I'm finding more free time.
Forgot about that, it was an awesome robot... Loved it when it looked in the dumpster and, finding nothing, decided to throw the dumpster at you... :evil:
-Av-
Ive got a 4-legged isdf walker for the AAN in serenesis.
it has twin shoulder-mounted assault rocket pods and twin assault guns. it can jump, spin faster than an attilla and run at higher speeds. Its low center of gravity also means it can push things around a fair bit too. THe idea was inspired from Ratchet & Clanks landstalker vehicle.
EDIT: I LOVE those models youve got Avatar. Really cant wait for BZC =]
Well that spider Dalek is a sort of cross-breed between the Arachnoid I made before and my generic assault dalek type.
Its got a fast top speed (50) but at the moment the weapons are 2 assault cannon 2 assault rockets and 1 assault mortar type(they are not all mortars)
I haven't figured out what its default weapons should be yet, Daleks have allot to choose from...
If walkers WERE real, there would be no real significant need for them. We already have Tanks, they can go an just about any terrain. So what we would be basically making is a tank on legs. :-D
True... but they look cooler.
The military doesn't care how stuff looks, just how it works. A bit like OM, actually.
You've gotta admit that they would be useful in fending off an alien invasion of Earth though, because they are very high tech and would probably frighten the living hoot out of them.
Quote from: AHadley on February 02, 2009, 07:26:25 PM
The military doesn't care how stuff looks
Actually they go for things that are intimidating and scary on purpose.
They don't really go for 'coolness' though, and funcionality always overcomes looks.
Treaded tanks can't go anywhere... there were numerous pictures of them stuck in the sand during Desert Storm and I've seen a lot of terrain you'd never get a wheeled or treaded unit through.
Hovering vehicles can be a different story, depending on how high they hover and what method they use to keep in the air. Something that depends on a field effect pushing on the ground is just as limited as a wheeled or tracked unit when it comes to severely broken terrain.
Walking units are what you'd use if you didn't have something that could fly or hover without being dependent on the ground level, and you wanted to cross broken terrain without having to use a bulldozer on it first. That's why I say most of the time they're limited in games to hauling the really heavy weapons around that can't be carried by flying or hovering units.
There are also limits to how large a treaded unit can be, in terms of the power needed to move the treads. Some of the walkers I've seen in games would need such huge treads that gearing to move them would be ridiculously large.
Finally, all that flying and hovering must use energy, and energy in war is usually traceable which is a disadvantage. Treads, wheels, and walkers are usually lower energy and can shut down completely to avoid being detected.
I think the true issue with using walkers over anything else is that a walker can be set up so that each leg senses and adjusts to the terrain. Ideally a walker would be able to run across a broken field, jump over boulders or other barriers, scale a sheer cliff, and cling under an overhang.
-Av-
Quote from: Nielk1 on February 02, 2009, 09:05:45 PM
Actually they go for things that are intimidating and scary on purpose.
True, theres something about functionality that makes things look good. Take fighter jets, for example. Theres a saying that "if it looks good, it flies good". Most modern fighters look fricken sweet, and handle just as well. The air forces would probably go for an uglier aircraft though, if that aircraft was much more effective that the cool looking ones.
Yes it would seem japan has a real hard on for Mecha.
If you ever go to a Japanese themed image board, that's one of the categories, with Gundam this Gundam that.
Its the anime's like the ones you've mentioned (other than big o) that have designs that resemble some sort of functionality.
Anyone here remotely interested in anything aforementioned should see Appleseed, Appleseed2, Vexile..
they're all 3d CGI like final fantasy spirites within but they're all heavily based on mecha.
Lol. I could stop laughing when it almost fell.
That guy should of kicked him. Just wait untill it becomes self aware :P.
It's legs are so life like.
Imo Walkers are not plausibly appropriate for Main Battle units but there are situations (in sci-fi settings) where Small humanoid walkers(manipulator arms) and tall multilegged(tripod-quad-6) would make some sense;
General purpose Support vehicle:
walker with arms and hands that can switch modular weapons(made for mecha, like in Heavy Gear) or Tools, and perform field base operations such as lifting cargo, base assembly manipulations, etc
Occupation:
the main battle is over, you are left with an insurgency expercted to be using light weapon abush, sniper and IEDs.
- In this case a humanoid robot vehicle can replace troops to avoid snipers(check point) and is easier for the population to relate to (the robot can gesture with hand for car to stop/ go left) and can perform actions a typical vehicle cant easily do open doors, remove debris, place fence, inspect a trunk.
- A very tall walker(WotW Tripod, HL strider, Quad) could make patrols with its high vantage point, and could conceivably survive an IED with resilient and replacable legs (a leg or two might be blown but the relatively high core/torso might more easily survive than a wheeled/tracked vehicle at point blank range from the detonation) assuming the torso/head is built to survive the fall(and any occupants have belts/airbags etc, unlike typical tanks with their hard metal interior in which a minor fall can be deadly for its occupants).
In a riot-ish situation, where you dont want to crush or kill people, a tall walker with tentacles or arms, can more easily move over a crowd to pick a specific agitator or rescue a person, without exposing troops(in addition to the psycological intimidation effect).
Urban Guerrila Warfare:
A BattleArmor or nimble smaller mech/HeavyGear with arms can use urban terrain to hide more easily than other types of vehicles. You can enter a building and can use the arms and hands to move/tear out obstacles and pull the mecha out if debris obstruct its movement.
I cant find myself to justify huge armless 2 legged walkers, imo its small humanoid with arms or multi-legged(3-6) patroling walkers(small to huge). :wink:
If all other justification fails, just remember how a walker can go up steps but a car has a ton of trouble.
I've just thought of a new category, which would be walkers made by races who, well, just never thought of wheels or treads... and never developed flyers or hoverers.
Seriously, a race like the Swarm would have walkers because they're biological, and nobody's seen biological wheels or treads... but pretty much every living mammal/reptile/insect has legs.
Another race might have something looking like a giant squid, because they're an ocean-going tentacled race and never though of wheels or treads...
Yet another might have something like a hovering ball with tons of appendages, because they're like the Daleks and don't have capable bodies of their own. In their case 'walker' would simply be a more utilitarian body used as a spaceship/suit.
We humans are SO human-centric... :)
-Av-
The MP Swarm pilot is awesome...
Never seen it... post a pic?
-Av-
(http://www.bzcomplex.com/gallery/albums/userpics/10002/bz2_0015%7E0.jpg)
A little blue but I am rushing out the door.
The thing jumps very high, runs very fast, has a very fast machine gun like mucus sprayer, and a web shooter sand bag like thing for deploy that makes it crouch really low to the ground and end up with its legs kind'a like the swarm constructor.
Another reason walkers would be great is for manouevrability. In tight spot a walker will be able to manouvre (darn I hate that word) much better.
In BF 2142, the walkers are very well done. Very good animation, plus they have boost ability, where you can walk faster for short periods.
This may have more to do with the concept of "lets make a gigantic version of myself to fight other gigantic versions of other people with lightsabers because things are more awesome that way" and less to do with the "lets make a cheap effective weapon" viewpoint.
wheres the rather awesome looking 4 legged walker we were all looking at a month or two ago? i thought Avatar posted it but i might be wrong
Anyone remember this from YEARS ago?
(http://www.bzcomplex.com/gallery/albums/batchadds/bz2md_old/d8c71e4cda1e156f937dc287fa5177df.jpg)
I wonder if it was ever finished.
WANT :-D
Looks like one of those great models made by someone who does not do UV mapping or skins. Shame.
If anybody locates that, is there any chance of it being put on bzscrap or something?
I think that is just four constructor legs and five walker cannons mounted to a brick. You could rebuild it yourself with threed, but you would need to enlist someone like avatar to animate it.
I can make my own walkers (was a fight with my first vertex animated one but that one works now too). I offer at the very least to animate them, though I am not the best at it.
I think I'm going to have to use ThreeD at some point. Sounds cool. I don't know where to find it though, I've googled and I get a version that doesnt work. Anybody have a link?
Yes, I am that incompetent.
Also, Is BZ2ME the same thing? Might it be that I'm trying to download a program that, by coincidence, has the same name?
Jesus man, look on bzscrap.
Oh, it's there? Ah. Oops.
Yes, it is called bz2me.
http://bzscrap.com/downloads/Utilities/bz2me.exe
and it sucks. great for models that use original parts, but it destroys animations and makes some files buggy.
try not to use it where you can. it was great back in the day, but bleh.
Its perfect for viewing models and checking them for problems, but never edit anything or save files from it or they will be torn to shreds.
My best models are incompatible with BZ2MD. Work in BZ2 though.