People need to lose more often.
I'll join a DropZone MPI with others on Insane and win all the time.
I can join a Strat with good players and win.
I joined an FFA after it had been up for 2..3 hours and (somehow) won.
I guess my point is that people not only play to win, but they expect to win, as if they're thinking, "I think I'll go win a game of BZ/BZ2 now to make me feel better."
edit: If people lost more often instead of winning more often, would that deter them from playing or discourage them?
Thoughts?
i find that, If people lose at a goal/game, they will try over and over untill they win.
Or until they realise that it is impossible... or they get sick of it.
I think the games are getting less dynamic. Thugs are turning into either 1 on 1 machines or sucky 'lets lead the ambushers drones to the Recycer' twits.
I hope to switch this stuff up with some of the modding I do, like forced teamwork in Reactor Wars and a new alien playing style in a mining map, but these are a bit away in time and then they might not be played if people just want their quick "I Win" fix.
The vet community doesn't lose well. If you posted this at BZ2MAPS a flame war would be imminent :P
The only issue with forced teamwork game types is that you have to have a few players to get a decent game out of it. Id LOVE to play reactor wars with 8-10 people, itd be awesome, but how many RW games i put up and people will join i don't know.
However, its something totally different to master isnt it. Team KOTH is quite fun.
Quote from: Feared_1 on August 06, 2009, 07:17:49 AM
The vet community doesn't lose well. If you posted this at BZ2MAPS a flame war would be imminent :P
If you posted the results of a Frankston under-10's basketball game at BZ2MAPS a flamewar would be imminent.
I'd like to play a Dropzone MPI without any MDM mortars. That might be worth it.
I've played against some very sore losers recently in FFAs.
On the other hand, I actually dont mind losing my base in FFA, I get to snipe enemy vehicles for a while and just generally annoy people. :lol:
Yup; if not for MDM, the ISDF would definitely be in trouble.
Me, I find that losing is invigorating. If you win all the time, it reduces the enjoyment when you do win.
As I've said to some before ... I never get tired of winning .. however I dont mind loosing in a decent game. I do mind loosing cause the comm is an idiot or because there absolutelly no teamplay, but if play is good than it is a part of the game.
I do have to say I mind loosing in BZ2 more than I do in for instance Battlefield, simply cause the teams there are much much larger and even if you loose the match you can have a sort of personal victory.
Sometimes I quite enjoy loosing a strat if it was a good game. I even enjoyed loosing an MPI the other day, messed up my strategy and got my undefended rec mbiked :)
If I loose my Base In FFA I often try to Hire myself out as a mercenary to one of the other players, they don't always understand what I am doing though and won't give me ships...
I quite enjoy joining FFAs half way through in a screwed up base and seeing how long I can hold out.
Quote from: mrtwosheds on August 08, 2009, 03:11:42 AM
Sometimes I quite enjoy loosing a strat if it was a good game. I even enjoyed loosing an MPI the other day, messed up my strategy and got my undefended rec mbiked :)
If I loose my Base In FFA I often try to Hire myself out as a mercenary to one of the other players, they don't always understand what I am doing though and won't give me ships...
Same here, last time I played a FFA on riverwars with Fulmen. But the guy on his side right after start drove his recy in the river so I was jammed between Fulmen who had a whole side for himself and Sheadog who also knows how to play a decent game. Fulmen used some 'human tactics' but he kicked me out of the game, I used my last ship to try and knock down his recy which worked for slightly over 1/2 the health untill Fulmen got back to his base and took my last ship ... very good game, really dont mind loosing that way, though I do think it would have been a beter game if both Sheadog and myself would have targeted Fulmen and been able to play a say more honost game. Now Fulmen didnt have the hardest fight taking me out and with me out of the picture Sheadog wouldnt stand a chance ... (Fulmen owning 3/4 of the map/pools)
How many games have you all loosed? Where do they go when you loose them? Do they run off? If you love something, loose it go free... if it returns it's yours for life and if it doesn't you have something to hunt down and kill... :evil:
It's "loose" the hounds,
It's "lose" the game.
I know it doesn't always look correct, but it is.
Now that I got that out of my system it's time to loose the typing...
Some have complained that I don't know a game because I don't play MP. I'm not just talking about BZ or BZ2, I've heard it often about other games. I often try a little MP just to see how it is, but otherwise I've pretty much withdrawn from all online play because, well, it just got too popular.
What?
Well, (Av parks his nuc'lar powered cane and climbs painfully up onto the soapbox none of you noticed was there...)
Back in 'the day' I once spent over 12 hours straight playing on a Quake server I'm pretty sure was in some Arab country, based on the gibberish everyone was chatting. Why did I spend such a long time there? Even with the language barrier the teamwork was breathtaking. Everyone just seemed to know what to do and did it, and possibly because I couldn't see what they were chatting there was no impact of attitudes, or smack talk, or general nastiness. I mean, maybe there was, but I couldn't read it.
Back in 'the day' I absolutely loved playing BZ Strat with Mower or FON or even Varis, who was in Sweden (or some such distant place). I couldn't even scratch Varis, btw, due to 'lag shields', and it was still a ball. Mower and I knew each other too well and spent the whole time sending AI to their 'Darwin Awards Doom' and just generally chatting and BSing. FON and I would usually end up testing this or that modification or some odd thing (like Golems pooping out Czars, something he was very proud of).
Back in 'the day' Tony and I would play Rogue Spear and die over and over and over, mostly because the AI just popped around to me since I was trying to connect to England with Dialup or ISDN. I'd often be dead for several seconds before I heard the shot... Then there's the time I dropped a grenade on a skylight I couldn't see at my low graphics settings and blew us both up... :roll: good times.
Back in 'the day' our whole bumbling 'Squad' (we didn't like 'clan') started playing Tribes together and, despite some 'Vets vs fun' fights here and there did pretty well while maintaining our sense of fun... We lost a dozen matches in a row one day against {SSS} but celebrated our one win. Being pwned by a bunch of stoners couldn't tone down our camaraderie or dampen our enjoyment of playing the game together. I'm still the only person I know to catch a mortar in mid-air at the peak of jumping over to the enemy base in Broadsides. My head landed in the next county and I couldn't understand why I couldn't control anything for a bit, but once the yelling and screaming died down on our Teamspeak server and it was explained to me how cool it looked I got a kick out of it... "I'm open! I'm open!"... good times.
We ran our own server when Tribes2 came out, and although we didn't play there en masse very often there were usually a few of us around on any given day. Our Server was dedicated to decent, fair, and upstanding gameplay but you know how crowds can get. I got my nephews playing on it (they were 8 and 7) and one day Zach called me over. "What's he doing?" he said and looked up. Zach was in Heavy with Bazooka and there was a Light with Cloak standing on top of him. "I don't have a clue, let's watch and see" was my reply. The guy would jet and cloak when an enemy came in, and while the bad guy was shooting at the huge Heavy standing there the Light would swoop down and blast him from behind. Then he'd grab the supplies off the body, a Repair pack from the floor above and drop down to heal up Zach. Then he'd grab a cloak and it'd all start over again. I loved it... "You're bait!" I told Zach.
We rarely had troubles but if we did the chime of "{BZ}Zach has become an Administrator" usually cleaned things up fast. Good times.
Back in 'the day' I spent a lot of time playing Planetside with Tony and the group he'd joined. Very strange to listen to a bunch of Brits playing an FPS... "Chaps, I could use a spot of help over here." in a calm, quiet voice... or "Ah, that's a bit of bad luck all right". Very different than a lot of American games, almost like listening to NPR rather than a metal station if you know what I mean. Sure there were a few lamers around here and there but the game didn't cater to them.
Yup. Good times.
Now, sure, there were those in Tribes that would destroy all their own stuff and then join the other team. There were hackers in BZ1, more the longer we played. I got fireballed in town in Diablo. I got blown up by my own team in Wolfenstein, Doom2, Quake, Tribes, T2. Pushed into the line of fire by my own Scavs. Sniped and gunned down by Tony in four or five different Ubisoft games despite being on his team. ( tend to run around corners when I shouldn't). :|
I can handle a bit of bad sportsmanship, smack talk, teamkilling, hacking, etc.. Or at least I used to be able to, but I'll admit the older I get the harder it gets to take.
Like they say, though. "That was then, this is now."
What's happened in the last few years is that computers are now everywhere, and even the least of them is capable of running games from a few years ago that back in 'the day' took a lot of expensive hardware. Cable modems and DSL are everywhere, and many take a decent connection for granted. This means there are a lot more people playing online now then ever before, not just dedicated gamers who took it seriously and paid to support their habit.
To make matters worse consoles are now online too, meaning a ton of people are playing online while sitting in their living rooms.
I hate to say this has opened up the online gaming community to a lot of kids, but it's true. By kids I mean those of all ages, who have never developed any sense of propriety or maturity or have any desire to play a good game, win or lose. Nothing like joining a game and, the first time you give them a rocket chair ride they exit the server.
The internet has also given a lot of immature people simple tools to attack other people on the internet. Tick someone off and then wonder why your firewall is lighting up.
Back in 'the day' I stood in a doorway in Diablo and blocked skeletons, letting a newb shoot them with a bow and arrow to gain experience points. I had people in Tribes2 actually place sensors and defenses when I asked someone to, and I was healed and resupplied by total strangers. I had 'Virge' ask me about ghosting in BZ1 (not the same as BZ2), formed an internet friendship, and years later had the fun of playing a DM with his son who was just getting into BZ. I hate to say it but I think a lot of the whole 'Vet' attitude in all games is feedback for running into so many newbs that not only are clueless, but mean about being clueless...
So yes, I agree, that a lot of people need to learn how to lose. They need to lighten up and find the fun.
But that's just my opinion, please don't fire up your attack software now... :-P
-Av-
Sometimes... or quite a few times i enjoy losing.... if i know i cant win i drag the game out for hours... or make the enemy look completely stupid several times before i die :-)
I remember once in 1.1 i had 3 bases on ground 4, every time he took something out id put it somewhere else (yea this was a noob game where we didnt attack pools)... game lasted 5 hours until he decided to kill my pools then i archerd the hell out of him that i build't up from the intire game that i was hiding... i wanted to lose though but wanted to end it more... :p
Avatar, that post is the best I've read pertaining to the community.
Thank you!
*everyone gathers closer to the fire as Papa Smurf tells tales of the "The Olden' Days"* :mrgreen:
That was beautiful. :cry:
I can take losing, so long as it's not a test game... Don't feel like bringing up the 20+ times i got left out of a 4Way Strat test for SRV in the first hour of the 4 hour session... Long stories, and very boring. :P
Quote from: Avatar on August 08, 2009, 10:07:26 PM
.... snip .... I hate to say it but I think a lot of the whole 'Vet' attitude in all games is feedback for running into so many newbs that not only are clueless, but mean about being clueless...
I think that holds some truth, but I also think the other way around has some truth to it. What I mean is that some Vets easilly spot a noob and dont mind humiliating him/her, where I feel you should give them some room (possibly to hang themself) and give them some feedback about their gameplay. I dont know how often in MPI I tell people/noobs to keep a focus on pools and that there is no need to rush the enemy on GH-maps as it will just cost them their ship, the ones that take the advice become much beter grunts in the timeframe of a single game .. and that again saves me the frustration of having a wingman that has twice the deaths as he has kills.
Yeah, sometimes it can get really frustrating when a guy on your team keeps setting off statues which then send ambushers etc, at your base and generally pwning whatever units you have because you've only just entered the world.
Everyone needs some 'free time' to develop a feeling for game etiquette, no matter the game. I once rushed into the central chamber on some Tribes2 CTF map only to be smashed back by a few enemy players... totally destroying the mini-base someone had been carefully setting up. It took a few minutes for it to sink in, the damage I'd done. The guy that was setting it all up took it a lot better than many would have...
Vets go through stages the same as all players. I think the stage where you put up with noobs is fairly brief, depending entirely on how many noobs stab you in the back or otherwise dump on you... The truly excellent Vets are the ones that realize that extreme patience in training new players is what keeps the game growing.
***
By the time BZ1 came around I was getting pretty tired of Quaking it... I was ripe for something that took thinking rather than twitching... :) We were all noobs together back then, and the hackers ruined the game long before anything more than Clan Pride was running rampant. I never saw the attitudes common nowadays until the hackers started showing up, they were like noobs given nuclear weapons and turned loose...
Modern games like COD, BF2, etc. have less trouble developing Vets because the basic skillz are all there when you start playing the game, not after you've played it for a year. IOW the learning curve has shortened considerably and I don't think that's a good thing... It's a lot like the hardware/internet connection cost disappearing, it 'lowers the bar' too far. :P
The big thing is to remember this stuff when you become a Vet in a game... and don't go over to the dark side...
-Av-
I played BZ on Compuserve and a P133 with no hardware accelerator card Beige Box. Don't get on me with hardware...we've had that for years before BZ came out!
... That was back in a time when FPS didn't mean anything to me. The ATI Rage pro 2mb (or was it 1mb?) accelerator and a PII? That was liquid silver for bz to me at about 45 FPS if I remember correctly. Twas amazing to feel like all this time my internet lag wasn't due to dial up- but my crap PC!! :D
Bz2 on that PII? Ha. That was a funny story. I waited 2 hours for the loading screen to finish and when that was done...well let's not talk about the textures and models and how they rendered. Kind of like jellyfish translucence actually.
And here I am, back to trying BZ1 on my newer rig, more importantly BZE. Framerates at or worse than that P133. A fitting end to a bellcurve, eh?
Lol... isn't it strange how now the hardware is almost TOO powerful to run the old girl, rather than not powerful enough?
As an old hardware packrat I don't think I'll ever be without a rig to run BZ1 natively, but it's still great to see people keeping the old girl going.
-Av-
I agree except where you call BZ an "old girl." That is the most inaccurate observation made ever :O
Exactly!! The correct term is Old Woman.
I told you I spent a lot of time playing with Brits...
So what should I call her? Remember, I've known her since before she could walk... :)
-Av-
Avatar, you should call her "Late For Supper."