Battlezone Universe

...I figured a few a things out about using DirectX models straight out of the box (so to speak) for use in BZII. Initially my models were appearing and flying backwords when I placed them in the map editor. I finally  figured out why...by default TS uses the left hand coordinate system. Apparently, I was contructing my models with a right handed coordinate orientation in mind, so when I rotated the model 180 degrees and reset the rotation to 0 0 0 the model was now properly oriented for exportation using the left handed coordinate system. Now when I placed my X based models in the map editor everything was perfectly oriented.

Secondly, my hp's never worked initally because TS adds a -number to the names end cauising BZII not to read the thing correctly. I fixed this problem by renaming the ODF entry to like hp_gun_1-whatever number TS added to the objects name and wala the gun 1 icon appeared on my ship and works perfectly now! Apparently, BZII only cares that the names match between the model and ODF. I other words hp_gun_1-1 when changed in the models ODF file is the same thing as the standard hp_gun_1. Here's a zip file with the X model and ODF file http://cid-380832c976843acb.skydrive.live.com/self.aspx/BNG%5E4s%20BZII%20Models%20and%20Props%20for%20other%20BZII%20Modders/ivhawkts.zip (http://cid-380832c976843acb.skydrive.live.com/self.aspx/BNG%5E4s%20BZII%20Models%20and%20Props%20for%20other%20BZII%20Modders/ivhawkts.zip) Could someone check the model and give me a clue on what I might try?

Now for the major glitch...the BMP texture I used on the model still won't appear. Why? I used a blue and brown camo texture, but only the brown portion appears on the model. Why no blue? I believe it's a 24 bit BMP. Does BZII have problems with this type of texture file. I know that BZII prefers PIC format, but TS doesn't support it. What other formats will BZII accept? TS supports TGA, PNG, TIF, JPG, AVI, TXR, and LWI. PS: Really would apreciate some feedback as this might also lead to X animations being possible as well; still need to work on that one a bit, but theoredically it is possible if BZII can read a non-animated X model file. Tanks, BNG.
(http://rpiffq.blu.livefilestore.com/y1p2QNVw9iGZK9Dx2gVxHOjHftrh1qmqw0qFMwf0l-nIMVnc8N8N6FrcFwOTPUU3woQq65WcgGCzvZtO83lLDu8QQSJjBCOo92C/tshawk.GIF)

I use PNG on my models for BZ2 and haven't had a problem so far.

Use dxtbz2 wherever possible (AND HAVE YOUR MODEL POINT TO A .DXTBZ2 TEXTURE, NOT .PIC/.PNG). dxtbz2 is the most compressed form of texture, it cannot be converted back into any other format which also prevents others from 'stealing' it. Obviously keep the original .pngs or .psd's around for future editing if you wish.

Using other supported textures is fine, but you can swap file extension in notepad, so it doesn't make any difference if your modelling program doesn't support it. (NO program supports .dxtbz2, yet some of the new stock models have that specified). If your creating .dxtbz2 and want them to be used, make sure that the model points to a .dxtbz2 texture, because as mrtwosheds says, theres no point referencing a non-existant texture. In fact it DOES cause huge problems doing so every now and again.

Next point, DO NOT change this:
weaponHard1 = "hp_gun_1-number".

CHANGE THE MODEL, ALWAYS. just rename the frames in notepad, and remove the extra number. Its really easy.

Also, remember that BZ2 doesn't support .x as well as .xsi. I would expect there to be problems using the .x format. If you cannot convert to XSI in TS, then just use that bodged old program xtoxsi if you have to.

just use bmp in TS but when you export to XSI, use xnview to convert the images to .pic format.

Quote
Now for the major glitch...the BMP texture I used on the model still won't appear. Why? I used a blue and brown camo texture, but only the brown portion appears on the model.

NOTEPAD!!!
In .x you are looking for MeshTextureCoords {

In .xsi it is called  SI_MeshTextureCoords {

I have no idea if it works without the SI_ bit on it

It is simply a list of paired coordinates, that define the UV mapping.

We are so lucky to be using a format that can be read as text. Most other formats would be very difficult to debug.

USe x2xsi its very simple, I have it if you can't find it.

Quote from: mrtwosheds on November 17, 2009, 12:27:31 PM
I have no idea if it works without the SI_ bit on it

SoftImage

X Soft Image

Soft Image X file.

i think he gets it :P

I was never able to get a textured .x object to work, period, which is sortof why I made X2XSI...  BZ2 uses .x objects for very simple things, like the 'scrap field' marker and such...  I can't remember offhand if any of the stock .x's are even textured.

It'd be nice to know if BZ2 will even show the texture for a straight .X object before spending major time on getting them to work.

-Av-

I had no idea you made it! well done.  :wink:

I found X2xsi does a cleaner conversion from X to XSI as it doesn't truncate the numerical entries in the text body part like Threed does. Kudos, to AV for releasing it. However, I couldn't figure out how to get textures to covert properly with X2xsi. As I recall I tried using another appy called Winmerge to combine parts of both the X2xsi and the Threed X variation files. I basically copied the texture portion and pasted that into the X2xsi file from the Threed file. I got part of an animation section to work by adding SI_ to the animation section of the X2xsi version. After a while though I ran out of ideas to try, and just sort of put things on the back burner with the whole thing.

Renaming the hp_whatever-number in the ODF file does work, otherwise, BZII would have flagged it (AV'd) or simply not allowed the hp's to work, but the missing texture part still has me baffled. For exanple, an untextured X model will indeed show the base material colors applied in TS and display them in the map editor without issue, but if a standard texture is applied then BZII can't display it properly. what I may try now that I thinke about it is apply the texture to another layer by adding it with the material editor in TS and see what happens. TS handles these type of textures by outputting it as a Procmap0.BMP which is why I don't think it will work either.

The X exporter in TS has options for exporting the mesh vertex colors along with the texture file and geometry, but when applied I don't even see the model, but it's there because I can still see the ships name tag in the map editor, but I can't get into the ship; go figure that one out? No, please try to figure that one out.

Has anyone had time to check out my X model zip file to give me some feedback? Might help if someone besides myself took a second look.

PS: I mostly still make X models in TS and converted them with Threed and Notepad to edit the Hp's and other BZII dependent frames like flame__h, etc, but I've started to play around with Blender and OM's exporter. It still has some issues with textures and animation. As far as testing is concerned I'm doing what little I understand about testing such things. Hopefully, you Blender guys can post some stuff for OM to shake his head at. I tried exporting 3ds models from TS to Blender for XSI conversion, but there's no texture on the models. In fact they look a lot like my X model they work, but still no texture. Why? Why? Why? 99 bottles of beer on the wall...99 bottles of beer..... :|
     

I dont understand why people are obsessed with having six decimal places AT ALL TIMES in .xsi files. Its not neccesary, and in fact, makes it easier for BZ2 to read. (Source: OvermindDL1). In fact i have a .xsi that was converted back by his MSH to XSI program, and there are no digits to six decimal places unless they need to be.

Oh and just re-name the hardpoints. Notepad makes it easy. You are very likely going to find problems with this at some point down the line, ESPECIALLY with turret hardpoints. Remember that BZ2's code is NOT flexible when i comes to things like this (and why should it be? If one method works why program in safety code for another?)

Just import a .3ds file into 3DS max, then export so that 3DExploration can convert it. (Why no one has made an xsi exporter for this i do not know.)

If I convert the ivhawkts.x with x2xsi, I can open it in threed if a texture is not present in that folder.
If a texture is present threed locks up.
I cannot convert your .x files to working .xsi

The material entry's look all wrong.

This is a working SI_material entry from one of my plants, compare this to one of yours, and you can see a whole bunch of stuff is missing.

SI_Material {
           0.500000;0.700000;0.500000;1.000000;;
           0.000000;
           0.00000;0.00000;0.00000;;
           0.000000;0.000000;0.000000;;
           2;
           0.500000;0.500000;0.500000;;

           SI_Texture2D {
"leafplnt.dxtbz2";
              3;
              256;256;
              0;255;0;255;
              0;
              1;1;
              0;0;
              1.000000;1.000000;
              0.000000;0.000000;
              0.944739,0.327825,0.000000,0.000000,
              -0.327825,0.944739,0.000000,0.000000,
              0.000000,0.000000,1.000000,0.000000,
              0.000000,0.000000,0.000000,1.000000;;
              3;
              1.000000;
              0.750000;
              1.000000;
              0.000000;
              0.000000;
              0.000000;
              0.000000;
}
}
}

The version of .x exported by 3dexploration 1.5.50 produces .x that can be converted to working .xsi with x2xsi, I assume TS uses a newer version of .x and the data set it outputs is different.
EDIT
I just noticed that my own (3dex) .x also has that data missing, so that cannot be what's wrong...hmmm
when I converted ivhawkts to xsi it did not get the data seen above under the "leafplnt.dxtbz2"; texture entry.

Viewed in 3dex ivhawkts.x has a texture ivhawkts.xsi does not...

If TS exports .3ds try converting that to .x with 3dex and then to .xsi with x2xsi.
Copy/paste animations from the TS .x to the .xsi

It's got be the an X version issue/conflict then. I have used the X converter that 3dex writes out. Also, remember that I'm using the right hand coordinate system when exporting and not the default left hand system TS uses by default.

I know it's all a bit confusing, but I only recently discovered that the top view in TS given the 3d axis are displayed in the lower right hand corner of the modeler workspace is the actual point where the coordinate system is referenced on. This is why my models appeared backwords in game, because, I was orienting and building models with the front of the model at the top portion of the workspace; in essences 180 degree off the true left handed coordinate system itself.

Like I've said so many times in the past I am indeed a true modeling idiot for the most part, but everyday I learn a bit more about how 3d modeling works in general. I have several different 3d modelers all of which seem to support various versions of the DirectX format. They include TS 3.2, Gamespace Lite, TS 7.6; it has 2 X versions, Blender, and GMAX via an MDL plugin. Oh, and as you've mentioned 3dex has it's own version as well.

BZII, at least in part supports some version of DirectX as the game itself was originally designed to run under some past version of DirectX as well. What really confuses me is that X model support is/was not better optimized from the beginning or subsequent releases of BZII public betas. Perhaps, that could be considered in future releases as the old SI XSI format is all but dead now.

How hard would it be to enhance support for DirectX models as far as BZII is concerned? If not X then some other model format like the current SI XSI format or perhaps a popular one like 3ds? Can it be adapted as a addon to future releases of public beta's? BNG.   

My last post above is a bit confused, and inconclusive, not sure it is the .x format at all, the coordinate system should be irrelevant to this.
The model (with texture) crashes threed, this is a fairly good indicator that bz2 will also have problems with it too.

The header             SI_Texture2D {
Is missing after conversion with x2xsi.

Ok. I make a .3ds and convert to .x (with 3dex 1.5.50) this produces headers in this order.

Frame
Mesh
MeshMaterialList
Material
MeshTextureCoords
MeshNormals

Your .x has headers in this order
Frame
Mesh
MeshNormals
MeshTextureCoords
MeshMaterialList
Material

x2xsi cannot convert this order correctly, and neither can bz2, I assume.

QuoteHow hard would it be to enhance support for DirectX models as far as BZII is concerned?

Probably impossible.

So it is probably the version of .x that TS uses that is not compatible with bz2.
can TS save as .3ds?

Yes, TS supports 3ds, but I'm trying to get X models into BZII. Everything except the textures work just fine in the map editor on my X models out of TS. I think it's a BZII related problem as even X models from the BZII demo game have no textures either; I figured this one out like last year.

Is it possible that all I have to do is rename TextureFilename in the X model to SI_Texture2D? That would be easy enough to do in Notepad.

I don't think so, I imagine the order in which the data is presented to bz2/x2xsi is quite important. this also explains why your models go wrong when you put vertex colours in them.

Quotebut I'm trying to get X models into BZII.

You want your model making process to be simple, but it isn't. We know that the .x version of 3dexploration 1.5.50 does convert .3ds to .x without too many issues, creating .x files that can be converted to .xsi. (some other versions of 3dex don't)
It is literally just an open and save as operation, You can still animate in TS.x and copy/paste the animations to the .xsi

QuoteI think it's a BZII related problem as even X models from the BZII demo game have no textures either;

Bz2 uses .xsi 0101, to try to do anything else is asking for problems. I Imagine that there is absolutely no chance at all of anyone altering bz2 to use a different format.

3dex 1.5.5, doesn't work after 30 days of use MTS; it requires registration afterwords which isn't possible of course as it's an outdated version of 3dex.

The X version that 3dex 1.5.0 uses isn't at all compatible with BZII; don't ask me why, but BZII freezes up trying to read that X format. It's not the header templates as GSL/TS7.6 X format does even use templates like the BZII demo X files that I've examined. The exception is X files exported out of GMAX using the MDL Flight Simulator plugin. If a top level frame is added in 3dex 1.5.0 and then converted again as X BZII can read the file without crashing.

The issue seems to be how BZII reads an X model file; it can read the geometry portion without any problems, but there's a bug in how it reads texture related information; it can however read base material colors that I applied to the model in GSL/TS7.6; why, I have no clue, but it reads them perfectly.

BZII, seems pretty buggy considering that it has to run under the directx run time parameters; version 6 as I recall, so the issue may be mostly BZII related rather then soley with the directx format itself. A programmer could certainly shed a bit more light then I can. Logically, textures should appear as they do when viewed in 3dex, Threed, etc. Why not BZII? Why? Why? Why? :|

Bz2 is not buggy, it does exactly what it was designed to do. It is old and cannot be held responsible for the actions of those who like to repeatedly re-engineer their formats (.x)

QuoteIf a top level frame is added in 3dex 1.5.0 and then converted again as X BZII can read the file without crashing.

Yes I have to do something similar, I just copy the first Frame FrameTransformMatrix bit and paste it above itself&rename in notepad after I convert to .xsi.

QuoteLogically, textures should appear as they do when viewed in 3dex, Threed, etc. Why not BZII? Why? Why? Why?

Like I said, the headers are in the wrong order, compare a .x to a stock .xsi, you will see what I mean.
Normals are where materials should be.
Give up trying to load .x straight into bz2, use x2xsi.
Avoid using Threed as a converter, its mess and a hackup and has a habit of putting .0e43 values into things for no good reason at all.
PM'ed you.

xof 0302txt 0032
works when converted correctly

xof 0302txt 0064
does not convert correctly

Correction, BZII, will read the 3dex 1.5.0 X format if a top level frame is added when converting the file to X, but textures still can not be read properly by BZII only the base color of the texture.

BZII, is a bit buggy if the X format is supposedly supported as mentioned by others, and BZII can not properly read an X file with textures as it was designed to do. I didn't write the f**kin thing. Why, get upset about it?

I also discovered an apparent error on my part about properly attaching model parts together, i.e., sibling verses child. I was simply dragging one part onto another to attach it in a sibling fashion. TS, has 2 icons for doing this; which I was not using properly I guess.

Anyways, I'll eventually figure something out or use whatever tools are available to make models as X or some other format like 3ds or Cob. As I understand it, you said that Lithunwrap can save as X too. Have you had success using that X version? Tanks, BNG.

Quote from: mrtwosheds on November 18, 2009, 11:19:30 AM
I had no idea you made it! well done.  :wink:

Thanks, but it's a total hack, literally just splicing text files together at certain points.  Still, it did let me get the first object into BZ2 before Pandemic released their Max plugin. (It was a simple white cube with no collision, so not really useful, but at least it worked...)  :)

When I see that people still use x2xsi it strikes me that I'd rather they worked on testing OM's converter for him, to get a decent converter that supports animation.

-Av-

Quoteyou said that Lithunwrap can save as X too.

Lithunwrap exports the xof 0303txt 0032 version of .x, it does not convert well either. so I don't use it.

There are dozens of different .x formats, if BZ2 does support one at all (?) it will be an old one.
It definitely does support xsi 0101txt 0032

QuoteI'd rather they worked on testing OM's converter for him, to get a decent converter that supports animation.

Problem with this concept is that it need someone with a good knowledge of blender to do the testing but most of us learn how to use our tools by making our mods.
No exporter-no mod, no mod-no exporter.
Om's exporter has been waiting for testers for a long time now.

Ironically, TS3.2 uses Directx version 8 and it was released in 1997 per Caligari FAQ. Gamespace, was released in 2004 don't really know what version it exports. TS7.6 was only released a coulpe of years ago, same unkown, with the x version it uses; version 9 I suspect.

BZII will load both a GSL and TS7.6 based X version as well as the one created by 3dex 1.5.0.with a top level frame added. None however will display a texture of any kind though. I've tried more then a half dozen different X formats BZII loves the geometry portion, but gets totally stupid interpreting the texture portion.

I've also determined that BZII can read a Directx template header as well as those versions that do not use them. Are there other text based model file formats that BZII can read? Or is it pretty much just XSI and X format?

Has anyone ever tried just typing in other text format names in the geometry name section of an ODF? I tried this with a test based ODF and I can say for sure ivscout.cob won't work? Still need to try a few other ASCII text based formats before I give up the ghost so to speak.

I'll do some testing with OM's exporter, but it would have to be done using TS to make the models and import them into Blender for conversion. As I see it Blender is way more modeler then an average BZII modder could use it for BZII stuff.

I'm still determined to find out why BZII can read X geometry like it was designed for it but why textures just refuse to display no matter what I do with the export settings.

Hell, even Threed (for God's sake) can translate the textures properly why the hell can't BZII??     

It reads them because they are text files. And XSI is just a softimage customisation of an x file. But it will only be able to use that data correctly if it is presented in the right manner, as in xsi 0101txt 0032. There will be no error handling or smart programming to deal with the unexpected as such, because it was only ever intended to deal with a very limited and controlled input, bz2's original .xsi's.
All you have to do to get your models into it fully functioning is supply data in the correct format, the same format as the original models.

PM,ed you again :)

It reads just about everything except the full texture data and it attempts to read that too. In this X model file out of TS7.6 with all normals flipped and exported with the right handed coordinate system the model partially displays the texture applied in TS; the black portion anyways. Also, note that the weapon hp's are fully functional as well; done via ODF editing of the weapon hardpoints as TS adds an annoying but editable -number to the end of the object name. The exception to this are non ODF listed entries like the flame, tread, tractor, etc; those can also be fixed on the model in Notepad by manaully deleting the -number entries and saving the file.

I believe that the texture issue is fixable, but I'm not sure what needs to be done at this point without more searching on the web as I don't think anyone on the forum has any more of a clue then I do. Any suggestion for sites that might be a good place to post questions like MSDN or some other MS based think tank?
(http://3tqolq.blu.livefilestore.com/y1p595t5c6dI8SRIQpCVfoDrS3ZxtZ1fDgRHPT5g6CfAhMNAAhpEtmZSF_b7nsywvtCYVFP-LhweVdCS-PVIyV0tL3Raotv7xGT/ivhawktsx.GIF)

Wow, this is really strange...I found a working copy of 3dex 1.5.5 and tried converting an X model to XSI, but no texture showed up on the model in the map editor?

Then I looked at the XSI file and figured out why; the converted XSI had TextureFilename listed where it should have read SI_Texture2D. Ironically, Threed, writes out a more compatible XSI for BZII then 3dex?

I tried fixing this in Notepad by doing a global replace of TextureFilename to SI_Texture2D, but still no texture? What else can I try to fix the 3dex XSI?

Getting a working XSI format is proving to be more of a headache then solving the missing X texture. 

 :-D This is getting confusing right?
The xsi in 3dex 1.5.50 is not the right one!
Use 3dex to save .3ds to .x
use x2xsi to convert the .x to xsi

Is simple, no?  :-D

chances are it will still not be able to convert TS .x version to a .x that will convert...dunno.

I've tried Converting X files using X2XSI it too does not translate the textures correctly. The best luck I've had so far is using TS based X fles converted using Threed. It's not really confusing at all though. I just thought that 3dex 1.5.5 could make a usable XSI for BZII; I just never realized that XSI actually used the TextureFilename entry in the 1.5.5. version. Probably, a newer XSI version or that the XSI exporter in 1.5.5 is broken like some say about the X exporter in TS.

One note that I might make is that TS7.6 also has a newer X/XNA based format that I haven't really experimented with yet that uses the header template format similar to those used by the BZII demo models; I still don't understand why the X format was even included in the demo considering the problems associated with the format? Try to figure that one out?

You know, now it makes me wonder if other text formats like those used by BZII could be tried for the same effect? I don't really know too much about other formats as I've mostly used the X and XSI format so far. I may try experimenting with other ASCII text based formats using Blender's wide array of file exporters you know just to see what's possible including modifying OM's python script to change an output setting or Two. I suppose anything is possible at this point.

The only thing that I'm really concerned with is getting animations going; non-animated models I can do already, but animated stuff still eludes me, but as I said earlier the X format that TS use's is more then likely usable for BZII minus the missing texture issue for animations anyways. I can still use basic material colors to decorate my models without textures and I'm almost certain that animation is supported using the X format as well. Don't qoute me on this one as I'm still in the process of learning to do animations with TS in the X format. The process is slow as I'm the only modeler in the entire group that has the balls to even attempt it. It may lead to nowhere, but for now I'm pursing the issue to a logical conclusion as a viable alternative to what's currently on the table. Wish me luck. BNG.