FYI, TS based X models work in BZII with one major glitch...help!

[BNG Da BZ Fool]

Yes, TS supports 3ds, but I'm trying to get X models into BZII. Everything except the textures work just fine in the map editor on my X models out of TS. I think it's a BZII related problem as even X models from the BZII demo game have no textures either; I figured this one out like last year.

Is it possible that all I have to do is rename TextureFilename in the X model to SI_Texture2D? That would be easy enough to do in Notepad.

[mrtwosheds]

I don't think so, I imagine the order in which the data is presented to bz2/x2xsi is quite important. this also explains why your models go wrong when you put vertex colours in them.

but I'm trying to get X models into BZII.

You want your model making process to be simple, but it isn't. We know that the .x version of 3dexploration 1.5.50 does convert .3ds to .x without too many issues, creating .x files that can be converted to .xsi. (some other versions of 3dex don't)
It is literally just an open and save as operation, You can still animate in TS.x and copy/paste the animations to the .xsi

I think it's a BZII related problem as even X models from the BZII demo game have no textures either;

Bz2 uses .xsi 0101, to try to do anything else is asking for problems. I Imagine that there is absolutely no chance at all of anyone altering bz2 to use a different format.

[BNG Da BZ Fool]

3dex 1.5.5, doesn't work after 30 days of use MTS; it requires registration afterwords which isn't possible of course as it's an outdated version of 3dex.

The X version that 3dex 1.5.0 uses isn't at all compatible with BZII; don't ask me why, but BZII freezes up trying to read that X format. It's not the header templates as GSL/TS7.6 X format does even use templates like the BZII demo X files that I've examined. The exception is X files exported out of GMAX using the MDL Flight Simulator plugin. If a top level frame is added in 3dex 1.5.0 and then converted again as X BZII can read the file without crashing.

The issue seems to be how BZII reads an X model file; it can read the geometry portion without any problems, but there's a bug in how it reads texture related information; it can however read base material colors that I applied to the model in GSL/TS7.6; why, I have no clue, but it reads them perfectly.

BZII, seems pretty buggy considering that it has to run under the directx run time parameters; version 6 as I recall, so the issue may be mostly BZII related rather then soley with the directx format itself. A programmer could certainly shed a bit more light then I can. Logically, textures should appear as they do when viewed in 3dex, Threed, etc. Why not BZII? Why? Why? Why?

[mrtwosheds]

Bz2 is not buggy, it does exactly what it was designed to do. It is old and cannot be held responsible for the actions of those who like to repeatedly re-engineer their formats (.x)

If a top level frame is added in 3dex 1.5.0 and then converted again as X BZII can read the file without crashing.

Yes I have to do something similar, I just copy the first Frame FrameTransformMatrix bit and paste it above itself&rename in notepad after I convert to .xsi.

Logically, textures should appear as they do when viewed in 3dex, Threed, etc. Why not BZII? Why? Why? Why?

Like I said, the headers are in the wrong order, compare a .x to a stock .xsi, you will see what I mean.
Normals are where materials should be.
Give up trying to load .x straight into bz2, use x2xsi.
Avoid using Threed as a converter, its mess and a hackup and has a habit of putting .0e43 values into things for no good reason at all.
PM'ed you.

[mrtwosheds]

xof 0302txt 0032
works when converted correctly

xof 0302txt 0064
does not convert correctly

[BNG Da BZ Fool]

Correction, BZII, will read the 3dex 1.5.0 X format if a top level frame is added when converting the file to X, but textures still can not be read properly by BZII only the base color of the texture.

BZII, is a bit buggy if the X format is supposedly supported as mentioned by others, and BZII can not properly read an X file with textures as it was designed to do. I didn't write the f**kin thing. Why, get upset about it?

I also discovered an apparent error on my part about properly attaching model parts together, i.e., sibling verses child. I was simply dragging one part onto another to attach it in a sibling fashion. TS, has 2 icons for doing this; which I was not using properly I guess.

Anyways, I'll eventually figure something out or use whatever tools are available to make models as X or some other format like 3ds or Cob. As I understand it, you said that Lithunwrap can save as X too. Have you had success using that X version? Tanks, BNG.

[Avatar]

I had no idea you made it! well done. 

Thanks, but it's a total hack, literally just splicing text files together at certain points.  Still, it did let me get the first object into BZ2 before Pandemic released their Max plugin. (It was a simple white cube with no collision, so not really useful, but at least it worked...) 

When I see that people still use x2xsi it strikes me that I'd rather they worked on testing OM's converter for him, to get a decent converter that supports animation.

-Av-

[mrtwosheds]

you said that Lithunwrap can save as X too.

Lithunwrap exports the xof 0303txt 0032 version of .x, it does not convert well either. so I don't use it.

There are dozens of different .x formats, if BZ2 does support one at all (?) it will be an old one.
It definitely does support xsi 0101txt 0032

I'd rather they worked on testing OM's converter for him, to get a decent converter that supports animation.

Problem with this concept is that it need someone with a good knowledge of blender to do the testing but most of us learn how to use our tools by making our mods.
No exporter-no mod, no mod-no exporter.
Om's exporter has been waiting for testers for a long time now.

[BNG Da BZ Fool]

Ironically, TS3.2 uses Directx version 8 and it was released in 1997 per Caligari FAQ. Gamespace, was released in 2004 don't really know what version it exports. TS7.6 was only released a coulpe of years ago, same unkown, with the x version it uses; version 9 I suspect.

BZII will load both a GSL and TS7.6 based X version as well as the one created by 3dex 1.5.0.with a top level frame added. None however will display a texture of any kind though. I've tried more then a half dozen different X formats BZII loves the geometry portion, but gets totally stupid interpreting the texture portion.

I've also determined that BZII can read a Directx template header as well as those versions that do not use them. Are there other text based model file formats that BZII can read? Or is it pretty much just XSI and X format?

Has anyone ever tried just typing in other text format names in the geometry name section of an ODF? I tried this with a test based ODF and I can say for sure ivscout.cob won't work? Still need to try a few other ASCII text based formats before I give up the ghost so to speak.

I'll do some testing with OM's exporter, but it would have to be done using TS to make the models and import them into Blender for conversion. As I see it Blender is way more modeler then an average BZII modder could use it for BZII stuff.

I'm still determined to find out why BZII can read X geometry like it was designed for it but why textures just refuse to display no matter what I do with the export settings.

Hell, even Threed (for God's sake) can translate the textures properly why the hell can't BZII??     

[mrtwosheds]

It reads them because they are text files. And XSI is just a softimage customisation of an x file. But it will only be able to use that data correctly if it is presented in the right manner, as in xsi 0101txt 0032. There will be no error handling or smart programming to deal with the unexpected as such, because it was only ever intended to deal with a very limited and controlled input, bz2's original .xsi's.
All you have to do to get your models into it fully functioning is supply data in the correct format, the same format as the original models.

PM,ed you again

[BNG Da BZ Fool]

It reads just about everything except the full texture data and it attempts to read that too. In this X model file out of TS7.6 with all normals flipped and exported with the right handed coordinate system the model partially displays the texture applied in TS; the black portion anyways. Also, note that the weapon hp's are fully functional as well; done via ODF editing of the weapon hardpoints as TS adds an annoying but editable -number to the end of the object name. The exception to this are non ODF listed entries like the flame, tread, tractor, etc; those can also be fixed on the model in Notepad by manaully deleting the -number entries and saving the file.

I believe that the texture issue is fixable, but I'm not sure what needs to be done at this point without more searching on the web as I don't think anyone on the forum has any more of a clue then I do. Any suggestion for sites that might be a good place to post questions like MSDN or some other MS based think tank?

[BNG Da BZ Fool]

Wow, this is really strange...I found a working copy of 3dex 1.5.5 and tried converting an X model to XSI, but no texture showed up on the model in the map editor?

Then I looked at the XSI file and figured out why; the converted XSI had TextureFilename listed where it should have read SI_Texture2D. Ironically, Threed, writes out a more compatible XSI for BZII then 3dex?

I tried fixing this in Notepad by doing a global replace of TextureFilename to SI_Texture2D, but still no texture? What else can I try to fix the 3dex XSI?

Getting a working XSI format is proving to be more of a headache then solving the missing X texture. 

[mrtwosheds]

  This is getting confusing right?
The xsi in 3dex 1.5.50 is not the right one!
Use 3dex to save .3ds to .x
use x2xsi to convert the .x to xsi

Is simple, no?  

chances are it will still not be able to convert TS .x version to a .x that will convert...dunno.

[BNG Da BZ Fool]

I've tried Converting X files using X2XSI it too does not translate the textures correctly. The best luck I've had so far is using TS based X fles converted using Threed. It's not really confusing at all though. I just thought that 3dex 1.5.5 could make a usable XSI for BZII; I just never realized that XSI actually used the TextureFilename entry in the 1.5.5. version. Probably, a newer XSI version or that the XSI exporter in 1.5.5 is broken like some say about the X exporter in TS.

One note that I might make is that TS7.6 also has a newer X/XNA based format that I haven't really experimented with yet that uses the header template format similar to those used by the BZII demo models; I still don't understand why the X format was even included in the demo considering the problems associated with the format? Try to figure that one out?

You know, now it makes me wonder if other text formats like those used by BZII could be tried for the same effect? I don't really know too much about other formats as I've mostly used the X and XSI format so far. I may try experimenting with other ASCII text based formats using Blender's wide array of file exporters you know just to see what's possible including modifying OM's python script to change an output setting or Two. I suppose anything is possible at this point.

The only thing that I'm really concerned with is getting animations going; non-animated models I can do already, but animated stuff still eludes me, but as I said earlier the X format that TS use's is more then likely usable for BZII minus the missing texture issue for animations anyways. I can still use basic material colors to decorate my models without textures and I'm almost certain that animation is supported using the X format as well. Don't qoute me on this one as I'm still in the process of learning to do animations with TS in the X format. The process is slow as I'm the only modeler in the entire group that has the balls to even attempt it. It may lead to nowhere, but for now I'm pursing the issue to a logical conclusion as a viable alternative to what's currently on the table. Wish me luck. BNG.