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First things First...

Started by Avatar, November 30, 2009, 05:15:10 PM

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Avatar

This part of a post by Ken begs a question:

Quote from: Ultraken on November 30, 2009, 12:43:45 AM
On the other hand, it's all just ODF files.  If people are willing to come up with values that the community can agree on, I could include it in the package.  Getting the community to agree is the hard part.  :)

Now, I think anyone who's been around the various boards, both here and elsewhere, or been part of the 1.3 beta, or stood between Dx and Spock for any length of time, or or or...  

sorry, getting a bit off target...  hopefully you get the idea...

anyway, I think most will agree that the most controversy generated with the highest volume of BS thrown between attending monkeys has been...

(drum roll please)

when FIXING issues with the game bumped heads with CHANGING parts of the game.

C'mon, you have to admit that 99.999% of the controversy about the BZ2 1.3 patch has been the reaction of MP players coughVETScough to patch changes that affected unit performance and weapons balance.  Most of the complaints about BZE (Dx's BZ1) have been about similar changes to balance.

Every time things come to a head we see the same statement:  "Why can't you just FIX what's wrong and NOT change anything else?".

So, the question is, and it's all up to Ken, should 'extra' changes be made or should he take his own advice when it comes to anything other than bug fixes:

Quote from: Ultraken on November 30, 2009, 12:43:45 AM
"Run away!  Run awaaaaaayy!"  :-D

-Av-

TheJamsh

Oh you've started trouble now!

In my opinion, BZ1 may be able to learn a lot from BZ2. BZ2 is probably the best balanced game ever when it comes to two races having separate technology.


BZII Expansion Pack Development Leader. Coming Soon.

eddywright

Quote from: TheJamsh on November 30, 2009, 05:18:01 PM
Oh you've started trouble now!

In my opinion, BZ1 may be able to learn a lot from BZ2. BZ2 is probably the best balanced game ever when it comes to two races having separate technology.

But that balance wasn't achieved by bug fixes alone. Creating balance requires change, there's no way around it.  Folks are all for change as long as it doesn't affect their own gameplay. Some would be thrilled if splinters were nerfed, except those love to  spam bases with splinters. There are bugs, exploitable bugs and balance. Each one will invoke different reactions from the gamer population.

At the end of the day, we all have to make choices to have progress. There is simply no way to please everyone.

Eddy

ssuser

The last thing we want to do right now is bog Ken down in a debate over what needs "fixing" and what doesn't. That can come later... much later. There are a few non-controversial things we could include - Dx has fixed the offset Golem shooting problem, for example, and if he wants to contribute those files from BZE I'm sure this would be one welcome change.

Ken, I have a couple of "non-controversial" things I can contribute myself as regards terrain files. I have a fixed TRN and MAT file for the mysterious "inst01" mission, which is like an IA mission but starts with camera shots. In 1.4 this is a completely black terrain mission. Also I have a fixed TRN file for Titan which can go in the edit folder - the current TRN file is missing road textures and doesn't autopaint right. If you want to include these in a 1.5 patch I will gladly send them in.

Avatar

I think it'll all depend on what Ken intends to do...  that is, what Ken figures a 'bug' is.  Obviously running under Windows 7 and on modern hardware needs code changes... 

Code changes can create balance changes, though, especially if they're making something work for the first time ever.  For a BZ1 example the flash cannon performance over the network is a bug, but if it's fixed will people use it more in MP?  Will it imbalance MP if it finally works?  Personally, in my MP playing days, I never got a GT using either the BC or FC to actually HIT anyone.  This was in the day of dial-up, though, and P2-233's... where 'lag armor' was the ultimate weapon.

This makes me wonder if the netcode using UDP packets could be considered a bug, or if it's even an issue in these days of cable modems and Gigabyte CPUs?

Now, just fixing something simple that worked, but not totally correctly, can cause trouble.  Fixing Service Trucks in BZ2 meant they actually worked rather than just facing away and waving their arm around, but it caused balance issues to the point where further enhancements were needed to allow them to be tweaked back to not so perfect...

The last thing I'd like to point out is that, like BZ2, BZ1 is technically dead.  Without being able to buy it anywhere there's little chance of attracting new players (unless you embrace and then ignore the fact that it's widely pirated now).  So, if this is going to be done and be worth anything it will have to be accepted by the VERY small community that's already divided.

The bottom line is maybe Stage 1 could be just making it run under modern hardware, and then see if the Community can find any issues.

Stage 2 could then be fix the glaring issues like making the Flash Cannon work over the network, and see what people do with that.

Stage 3 could then be enhancements...  although I absolutely shudder to think of what a Code Elf ™ considers an enhancement when left on his own...   :)

Anyway, as I said, it's all up to Ken as to just what he intends to do.  I'd just like to see the lessons learned during the 1.3 patch AND what Dx's run into with BZE to do some good...

-Av-

Blunt Force Trauma

To be kind, this a most dated debate.

Anyone that's played BZE ...knows... the release has the full BZ embedded.  Every map...and specific ship ALONG with that map.

The argument against BZE "changing" the game is absolute nonsense.

uh. . .oh wait. . .  Unless you argue that BZE added too much content and fixed too many issues.

Now, for lack of a better mindset, the spock sensibility says, "way too much has changed in the strat balance". Let's assume for a second there is some changes that fundamentally upsets some player's hardwiring to what he's learned.

Wasn't both BZ1 and BZ2 new once?

The argument to bash a version of BZ that basically fixes the majority of the crippling aspects of BZ, then criticize the game for some perceived . . .or real  "re-balance", is the epitome being stuck in time.

Red Devil

99% of balance is ODF tweaks, which comes after Ken makes the engine happy.

What else is really cool is that there's a lot of good players with 10+ years of experience who know what works and what doesn't, plus know every bug.

It can't help but become better now.  :-)
What box???

Ultraken


Ultraken

Quote from: Blunt Force Trauma on November 30, 2009, 07:14:07 PM
The argument to bash a version of BZ that basically fixes the majority of the crippling aspects of BZ, then criticize the game for some perceived . . .or real  "re-balance", is the epitome being stuck in time.
Having been through (and responsible for) much of the early firestorm around BZ2 1.3 changes, I'm much less inclined to make fundamental changes this time around.  The argument about flying was probably the most acrimonious and longest-lived, though the AI changes that made Turret Tanks spectacularly effective definitely ranks up there.  (There were plenty of others over the years.)

Dx

So that means spinning walkers, flipping turrets, flipping gun towers, scrap cheats, hacking, /kick not working, FC not working, anet cheat, etc.. etc... will be considered fundamental and remain?

Nielk1

Quote from: Dx on December 01, 2009, 01:22:49 PM
So that means spinning walkers, flipping turrets, flipping gun towers, scrap cheats, hacking, /kick not working, FC not working, anet cheat, etc.. etc... will be considered fundamental and remain?

I assume they would go the way of certain bugs in BZ2 1.3, and thus gain a cult following.

Click on the image...

Ultraken

I wouldn't be surprised.  :D

While the dividing line may be notoriously ill-defined, the listed issues are far enough over to the "bug" side that they'd be reasonable candidates.

Dx

#12
Be warned, those are part of the exploits many want left alone. But then, that is what mods are for... :D

Ultraken

That doesn't mean I won't fix them.  Flying Mortar Bikes and Scouts were very popular, but exploits nonetheless.  :)

(Players kept finding ways around our changes, so Nathan kept adding more and more interesting remedies.)

Nielk1

Theoretically, what was done in BZ2 1.3 with new ODF lines to toggle certain glitches back on (like effects getting stuck on anchor rounds) would help certain 'mods' re-add things.

Really BZ2's asset system would be great for BZ1 in how it does asset checking and manages additional items, instead of using predefined in the engine object lists.

This is stuff for Ken to figure out though.

Click on the image...