First things First...

[Avatar]

The thing is, most especially about BZ1, after release the community had DAYS upon DAYS into WEEKS into MONTHS into YEARS of 2-4-8 hours A DAY of actual gameplay. . . so while the devs knew the code, the players know the 'game'.

So, regarding that, I don't regard the devs as doing any big 'mistake' back in '97.  But now that we have players that have 4000. . . 6000+ HOURS of gameplay. . . they certainly should be listened to, or walk into another arguably BZ2 type mistake. 

Well, the size of either the BZ1 or BZ2 Communities are SO small that it really doesn't matter what is done from a practical point of view.  Considering that it's not being sold anymore it would be crazy not to listen to the few dozens of people actually playing it.  That is, not if you actually want the work put into it to mean anything.

Still...

In a new game, or one that was still being sold and actually had a future, balancing by 'Vets' is a very bad idea.  Yes, they know the game the way they play it, but doing so may make the game much more inaccessible for newb players as well as narrowing the gameplay into only the way they play it.  Many games evolve over the years as new players push the gameplay into new directions, and this helps keep such games alive.

BZ1 was primarily DM when it first came out, and then we started seeing more ST as the whole concept caught on.  Even so, after years of play we still had our Fuzzy Pink Armadillos, that had no idea what to do with wingmen if you gave him some...  or our Scrappy's, who had no idea that Armory thing actually had other weapons in it.  

-Av-

[eddywright]

In the case of the Flash Cannon, I would try to preserve that "heat ray" effect as much as possible regardless of the underlying implementation.  No one uses that weapon in multiplayer anyway, so it's not like it would draw a lot of controversy. 

If it worked, people might. One of the benefits of a weapon like flash cannons is the "red-out" effect, which can blind a player. It's hard to shoot back a something when you can't see anything but a red screen...

Eddy

[Blunt Force Trauma]

. . . In a new game, or one that was still being sold and actually had a future, balancing by 'Vets' is a very bad idea.  Yes, they know the game the way they play it, but doing so may make the game much more inaccessible for newb players as well as narrowing the gameplay into only the way they play it.  Many games evolve over the years as new players push the gameplay into new directions, and this helps keep such games alive.

-Av-

Balancing to me, NOW, only means certain ships are forgotten in DM.

In a vague way, one other aspect I was suggesting was the CHOICES a vet makes over a noob.

IMHO, it's easy to balance ships in DM playing BZ. Just imagine you're playing in a monetary situation. . .a league for points for a sizable pot of cash split amongst 5 players.  And winning was all that mattered.

You're given a map to play in. . .  You're then given a set of constraints ("rules") set by the host.

What ship do you then choose?

If the rank is painfully obvious in its disparity. . . you have balancing issues.

The ships never chosen would be forgotten.

[Avatar]

Balancing to me, NOW, only means certain ships are forgotten in DM.

In a vague way, one other aspect I was suggesting was the CHOICES a vet makes over a noob.

IMHO, it's easy to balance ships in DM playing BZ.

I'd have to agree with this other than sometimes the 'forgotten' ships can be fun.  Turrets vs Walkers was always fun, depending on the map, but nobody in their right mind would pick a turret for a normal DM. 

As to choices, that's a good point.   I've found that the experienced player has a plan...  the newb is just joyriding.  The experienced player is thinking several steps ahead when he chooses terrain, ship, weapon, damage and ammo states, where the newb just charges in and enjoys the skyride.

Balance in DM should be as simple as numbers, adding up ammo usage, damage/sec, etc..  Weapon linking made this a lot more complex, though, and things like nav blocking and lag armor tossed in unknowns that made each game a little random.  You can balance it by the numbers and still not be balanced when humans grab the controls.

Toss in Strategy play being heavily dependant on the AI and balancing for Strategy becomes very difficult.

I've always felt the best thing is to balance everything by the numbers and then let the players hash it out.  If some combo or weapon proves too effective it's patch time.  Of course, this means someone has to be around still supporting the game and making the patches...

-Av-

[Blunt Force Trauma]

You're absolutely right about some of the weaker vehicles like Turrets being fun in some very controlled situations.

Some of my fondest memories in BZ1.4 was 'Turrets vs Bombers' in the Crossroads map.  Back when there was >50 in the community, we would get 6-8 man games most anytime we wanted.

I loved grabbing a couple of raves in my Turret and finding a place to sit and "bottom fish" while casually drinking a beer and whispering info and maneuvering placement to other Turrets.

Going from sitting and chatting to either a desperate attempt to escape or pounding an unsuspecting patrolling Bomber in a matter of a few seconds was awesome.

I think coming up with 'Bombers vs Turrets' was a serendipitously positive, unconscious attempt to bring the weak Turret into the fray.

[ssuser]

Stepping away from the unit balance issue for a moment, I would like to bring up the names issue for BZ1. Ken, is there any way to redo the engine so you can use any name you like for vehicles and such using the BZ font map? Since you can obviously implement it for player names in multi, I was wondering how hard it would be to have the game dynamically substitute a custom name for a unit based on what it reads out of an odf. It this proves to be a lot of work, I would suggest at least we have some new sprite tables and MAP files containing more names for units and buildings. Dx has already done this for BZE, so it should be an easy update. There have been alot of new models done for BZ, and adding in such names as "Heavy Tank", "Sniper" and other generic monikers would be a good idea. A good names list could be made up via a poll.

[Scout]

Shield Towers is a odf change and they work now.

That's semi-vague

They "work now" as in at one point they didnt work odf edit or not?

and what is the odf change?

and is this just some hack up of a mcurtain or do they do what they SAY they do when you show info on them?

[Firestorm29]

I'm sure that if you stuck an M-curtain on it's side and flattened it's effective radius, you'd get the same effect they were going for.

[Dx]

In abshld.odf change the i76building to:
[GameObjectClass]
classLabel = "shieldtower"

The shield works next to a powerplant, it's a one way shield.

[Scout]

<3

[ssuser]

You need to set up the effects of it too like the M-Curtain properties. IMO the shield tower class kind of sucks as it is, the beam types Avatar set up for BZC are much better. You can build such Shields in BZ1 too with Dummy's VDF Viewer, these have to be set up right so they are only good for preplacing on IA maps.

[Red Devil]

Noticed a small discrepancy in the storyline.  When Mission 9 is won, the following is displayed. (file name misn09w1.des)  No biggy, but more for the purists.

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Conflict arose between the two governing bodies.  As each side developed more sophisticated weaponry, the other would top them.  But it was Nexus who managed to construct the ultimate weapon.  One that would end the war. The information that he gathered during his experiments began going into production in a secret weapons facility called Lerna on Jupiter's moon Io.

We must get to Io and capture the fruits of Paternus's Nexus V's weapons program.  We have not found any war records that postdate the work at Lerna.

[Dx]

You can build such Shields in BZ1 too with Dummy's VDF Viewer

You mean sdf viewer, shieldtower is a structure.

[ssuser]

Nope, I meant VDF Viewer. To make the beam shield for BZ1, you make the Shield into a Gun Tower. Add 2 HP for the beams, and set it into the game with a power supply, then have it attack a custom shield that is team 3 with health set to zero so it is invincible. Works quite well, the beams can be used to block a path thru a canyon - if the power supply is well hidden and both Shields are invincible the player has to find a way to take out the power supply thru alternate means.

Red Devil, there are lots of little errors like that in the game. On one mission end screen IIRC "court martial" is spelled "court marshall", lol.

[Firestorm29]

Nope, I meant VDF Viewer. To make the beam shield for BZ1, you make the Shield into a Gun Tower. Add 2 HP for the beams, and set it into the game with a power supply, then have it attack a custom shield that is team 3 with health set to zero so it is invincible. Works quite well, the beams can be used to block a path thru a canyon - if the power supply is well hidden and both Shields are invincible the player has to find a way to take out the power supply thru alternate means.

Red Devil, there are lots of little errors like that in the game. On one mission end screen IIRC "court martial" is spelled "court marshall", lol.

What if you're in a 3 if 4 player game? I would think using teams 7 or 8 might be a better idea, since there's no map I know of that's 7 or 8 player strat. I wonder if that is even feasible?