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Requests for Extra Modding Control

Started by Commando, June 30, 2004, 03:52:03 PM

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Asked for, rejected.  The code is too intertwined with other things for it to be a trivial task.

Believe me, I wanted it badly, but not if it meant causing havoc with other subsystems without Ken putting in mondo hours.  What I have works pretty well...

-Av-

Slaor

More than 16 terrain textures available in the TRN would be nice...32 would be ideal.

Slaor

Wasn't going to bring this up until I was certain my editor configs werent involved, 1.3 PB bz2edit.exe hates the big gridsize maps. I'm content to edit in 1.2 if I have to, and this may easily be an assets problem, but 1.2 runs it fine.

[ E X C E P T I O N ]
Patch 1.3 PublicBeta1 EDITOR Feb 28 2004 11:39:52
Type: ACCESS VIOLATION
Info: WRITING to 00000010h
CallStack:
005CC474 +0074 bz2edit.exe LIBC strcat.obj _strcat
0048A5CF +1311 bz2edit.exe EXE GameObjectClass.obj public: __thiscall GameObjectClass::GameObjectClass(class GameObjectClass *,char *)
Registers:
EAX: 112FD78Fh   CS: 0000001Bh  DS: 00000023h
EBX: 00785C00h  EIP: 005CC474h  ES: 00000023h
ECX: 112FD790h   SS: 00000023h  FS: 00000038h
EDX: 11318B68h  EBP: 021AF744h  GS: 00000000h
ESI: 1131346Ch  ESP: 021AF734h          
EDI: 00000010h                      
CF: 00210202h PF:0 AF:0 ZF:0 SF:0 OF:0
Entering critical shutdown


It also chokes when trying to MSH the big sky domes from XSI, I have to paste them in from 1.2 editing install. No sweat, whatever, just seems to signify a crawly bug and denies me use of your shiny new editor. Apart from that and the few other minor omissions like the DLL thing it seems very functional, thanks :)

Jwk the Hemp Monkey

It would be very important to be able to just go-in Single player game. Control tilde, BZeditor, Control E, and edit a map. That kind of insta-acess for testing and editing is going to be *nessesary* in FE rev.d. It was also ment to be apart of the game.

BZZERKER

Quote from: Jwk the Hemp MonkeyIt would be very important to be able to just go-in Single player game. Control tilde, BZeditor, Control E, and edit a map. That kind of insta-acess for testing and editing is going to be *nessesary* in FE rev.d. It was also ment to be apart of the game.
But not at the expense of wrecking MP games. Stop being lazy and get used to the way it works now because that's the way it's most likely going to stay. I'm getting really tired of your bashing things in 1.3 Hemp, even though you claim to support the work that GSH and Ken have done.

Jwk the Hemp Monkey

stop being lazy? Constant MP games wreaking? what are you talking about.

Redoing basically 90% of the * FE * single player is going to take 100s of hours if we had a 1.2 edtior, let alone this 1.3 one that doesnt do what it was MENT to do. i am not 'bashing' 1.3 and its not something you should be sick off, its the entire point of having a 'beta'.
Its called constructive critism.
Now if you want to keep the anti-multiplayer-cheating gone then *fine* But do it *properly*. Not just the quickest easiest and most damaging way possiable.

If the editor is not fixed then the proabilty of FE becoming compatible with 1.3 becomes significantly less. you cannot just 'write blank checks' in the future FE editors time.

BZZERKER

OHhh PAAALEASE Hemp, 90%? My understanding is that the biggest problem with FE is stuff relating to the shell. I'm not discounting that there will be needed changes to some ODF's, DLL's and other little things here and there, but 90%? I think you insult all the amazing ppl that worked on FE from the very start.

As for the MP anti-cheat, there was another method employed first but someone found a way around it. Even the slightest amout of MP editing can and has induced lag so I say go riddance to bad rubbish. And as for it being "the most damaging", I ask, how is it the most damaging?

Now for bashing, How many times in the last month have you called the editor "castrated"? There are a couple things missing but not all that much from what I can tell. You also seem to be assuming that the editor won't see any more work done to it.

Quote from: Jwk the Hemp Monkeyyou cannot just 'write blank checks' in the future FE editors time.
Heh heh, sounds a bit like you picked up GSH's manners :lol:

Jwk the Hemp Monkey

Because you know, i was not making a point or anything by sticking that last bit in ' ' did I?

And actually, with 1.3 AI, yes all the single player missions will have to be edited in some way, not to mention anything that was done using clever hacks. Alot of the Singleplayer maps will most likly need editing. As of now you cannot just go ingame and start editing something like you were supposed to. If GSH can only fix things by gutting them then he is not a very good programmer. The entire point of being a programmer i last heard was to fix things, not just take a sledge hammer to them.

CmptrWz

Who said they ever really intended you to drop into the editor anytime you felt like it?

The editor still works. You just have to intentionally activate it. DLLs currently don't load, but that is a 50/50 causality.

On one hand, the editor exe doesn't attempt to load the DLLs.

On the other hand, by my understanding, the DLLs won't work with something that isn't called bzone.exe anyway. The exe may have to call itself bzone.exe internally for them to work, even.

The first one is easily fixed by Nathan, just remove the forced /noscript or whatever it is from the command line parameters.

The second one could take some work. DLLs may have to have two compile modes, one for the editor, and one for the main executable.

Of course, all of this is really a moot point. Saving a map once the DLL has already done stuff doesn't make sense. You don't WANT to edit and then save a map while you are playing it. You note what is wrong, edit it, and try again. The little checkbox in MM5 would be perfect for that, actually, as not only does it toggle between edit and normal mode, but it toggles between executables as well in 1.3. Thus, you edit, you tap the box, you test. If you want to change something, you tap the box, edit, tap it again, and test. Otherwise you are liable to confuse the DLL, AIPs, whatever by randomly adding/removing/moving units/buildings, and get entirely different results then if you had played it straight through to begin with.

In fact, the only thing I see the current editor as doing is forcing you to leave the game 100% before re-launching to test, which I do not see as a bad thing.

BZZERKER

Quote from: Jwk the Hemp MonkeyAnd actually, with 1.3 AI, yes all the single player missions will have to be edited in some way, not to mention anything that was done using clever hacks.
What's the matter, AI too hard for you?

Quote from: Jwk the Hemp MonkeyAlot of the Singleplayer maps will most likly need editing. As of now you cannot just go ingame and start editing something like you were supposed to.
This is where "stop being lazy" would come into play.

Quote from: Jwk the Hemp MonkeyIf GSH can only fix things by gutting them then he is not a very good programmer. The entire point of being a programmer i last heard was to fix things, not just take a sledge hammer to them.
Bashing yet again, eh?

You still have yet to tell us why the editor is so damaged to the point that you (and only you so far) consider it "castrated". When it comes to programming and modding your cluelessness is staggering. And with that in mind, I shall return to ignoring you.

Slaor

The whole concept of a Beta still escapes you a bit doesn't it jwk.

Jwk the Hemp Monkey

Oh for sure slaor, desipte the fact that i have done lots of mods for different games.

And Bezerker your inabilty to actually think about my points is staggering.

QuoteWhat's the matter, AI too hard for you?

When the FE singleplayer and all of its dll's etc etc were designed, it took into account ''crappy AI''. Even as it stands it is still far far harder than bzii normal single player, and with 1.3 AI it willl become extremely difficult for the player to complete the single player. I might be able to do it but thats not the point.
1.3 aiming cerberi swarms anyone? What a great way to make a newer player just drop the game for saying that it is ''too hard''.


QuoteThis is where "stop being lazy" would come into play.

Oh right, shall i stop bothering to test things whilst you have a go at me for 'being lazy' whilst simultaneously make the abilty to do things in the future much much harder. Thats self righteous BS if you ask me, and not even well concealed. I mean, after all, people like me or Mower man are just 'lazy' arnt we?. Its not like we spend and will hopefully continue to spend 100s and 100s of hours testing and comming to fourms where people like you are on our backs constantly.

QuoteBashing yet again, eh?

its not 'Bashing' to make a point that is not targeted at GSH specifically at all. It is a standard requirement of to expect good programmers to...program things well. Saying that something needs improvment in a select area is not 'bashing'. You are always going on about how GSH has the right to be 'blunt'. Well I am being 'blunt', so why the double standard?
It is quite probable that a 1.3 patch if not properly made would do more damage to the community than good. If its final release has those attributes, then it would be better off not released.

QuoteWho said they ever really intended you to drop into the editor anytime you felt like it?

because there is a function called game.cheat Bzeditor , Thats why. A function that currently does not work the way it is supposed to.

QuoteThe whole concept of a Beta still escapes you a bit doesn't it jwk.

What? To be (spit) on?

EDIT 2: oh great, just noticed that this topic has also been trashed because some people decide to not work together, I wonder how many more posts will be made before this on finds itself in davy jones 'locke'r. Or mabey in an act of bad managment only the 'negative' posts will be removed, you know..the ones that actually make valid points and call for a tiny change.

Tempest Storm

Now if you want to keep the anti-multiplayer-cheating gone then *fine* But do it *properly*. Not just the quickest easiest and most damaging way possiable."

Yes, but of course. Its compeltely obvious that you know absolutely everything that happened during 1.3's days in private beta, and that the editor move from seperate EXE was done to complete prevent MP editing 100% since the original blockage for MP editing was an AV errer, which MP editors taunted GSH that it could easily be broken, so he took stronger measures...obviously GSH decided to take the easy way out.

"What a great way to make a newer player just drop the game for saying that it is 'too hard'."

Well that makes sense, but then again wasn't the response for new players that had not brushed up on their skills yet that played FE and complained about the SP told that the MOD was meant to be hard in the first place? The reason is great and all, but yields nothing to your cause.

"because there is a function called game.cheat Bzeditor , Thats why. A function that currently does not work the way it is supposed to."

I see, so you were on the design team for Battlezone II: Combat Comamnder, yes? You're lucky they left it in the release code in the first place, supposedly (according to Ken Miller) BZ1 & BZ2's design did *NOT* include any modification ability at all, the fact that it is quite easy to modify most aspects of the game is just luck, be happy you have that instead of nothing at all.

Give it a rest Hemp, live with the editor you are lucky to have. And don't even use FE as a reason for the supposed need for a complete editor, I've already worked on creating an FE version to work on 1.3 in my own spare time, I'm not all to dedicated on it obviously so its pretty much a half assed effort, but in the end I was able to get the shell working how it should have, and have normal Instant Action maps work with the Hadean race, mind you this was done in less than 3 days worth of work. The SP in its own is obviously alot more work, but not as much as you say it apparently is, besides, the editor doesn't even work too well with getting around scripted maps so you're not going to get too much help from it anyway.

Jwk the Hemp Monkey

Yes, but this is a much more worth while responce than '' oh just deal with it'' isnt it Tempest.

'' its getting solved and compensated for '' is what I want to hear, Not '' oh your a bad bad person ''.

With luck rev.d will get though the single player without to much difficulty, but i do not relly on 'luck'.

Chilvence

Has the request for a non-draconian model format been asked yet :D

Heh, I just dropped in to see how good ol Battlezone was getting along, and I was pleasantly surprised that not only was the BZCP that I was pining for so long ago finished, but that some cool dude who worked on the game itself was still taking care of its code - now thats dedication that you've no choice but to respect :)

I was thinking about the possibility of making some custom units for a project I've always wanted to do, but after reading all of Fish.XSI I'm terrified :P Theres no way I could get my head round that, and I think getting my hands on a copy (even an old one) of Softimage is kind of out of the question as well... Its just a slight step up in price over the tools that I'm used to using, heh

So, without thinking about the question further, what are the chances of that happening?