(MAJOR bug) groups of units and their hit boxes

[Jwk the Hemp Monkey]

I have been playing around with 1.3 in strats and such, against some of the newbs (aww) whilst looking after them and trying to explain concepts like 'mwf' and the like...anyway.

I have noticed that swarms of units are very powerful, and important to the running of the game.

However, it has come to my attention that these swarms have a tendiency to 'phase' into one another. This seems like only a minor inconvienience in 1.2, as 1.2 is really just about battles between human pilots, where AI consit of only really the defences...

However, in 1.3 where you can cram 10 APC's together...this presents a problem.

A big problem.

Not only does the scrap fields left around bases at the end of the game make even top end computers struggle, but also it means that alot of the stratergy is screwed because you can focus so many units and their abilty to damage stuff in one spot.

I have also noted how sabres, if they are all running away from something, will form a line where they phase ninto one another. Also a problem.

Bascially i am really hoping that the phyics of 1.3 will fix this, cause its one of those things thats going to turn really ugly i feel.....


Oh...and there should be a default unit limit of like 40, so that its less likly for the newer players to screw their games up.

[Angelwing]

Being that im not a 1.3 player I can't say i've actually seen this before... even if i place units ontop of each other in the editor their collision kicks in and they just 'explode' outwards, though not dying obviously...

Swarms of units are always nice. Unfortunately in the case of base assaults not even 20 sabres can handle it sometimes(depending on the map), they'll take out a few things but turrets especially have that annoying tendancy to jam them, making them switch targets every
second and not really doing anything but dying...

Using assault units is more effective, but it takes so much longer. I just like to zerg em :P

[Jwk the Hemp Monkey]

in 1.3 this is changed. TBH i kinda like it.

In 1.2 there is the skill of comanding and dogfighting...

if 1.3 is done properly and balanced well, then there will be 3 skills
commanding, dogfighting, and how to control large groups of units/defend against swarms.


You cannot 'dodge' a level 3 ai blast sabre, making a swarm of 10 of them pretty deadly.....

This is why the bug for warping into one another i feel *must* be fixed.

[Spawn]

it looks like people are finally figuring out why apc has a bunch of warriors follow him around

i dont understand this phasing, you got a screenie?

and a swarm of units is quite counterable, you just need a better swarm of units

[APCs r evil]

.. It has a psychological impact.

Besides, since everything moves in a little cluster, only 2-3 can fire at a time, untill they fan out behind someone, although by that time the target has usually started running. Plus it makes you feel nice and safe to be in the center of one of those clusters.

I have only noticed the phasing with scavs and constructors passing through turrets, scavs passing through constructors, and APC's cramming inside the hitbox of just one.

[Commando]

I know exactly what Hemp is talking about.  AI units will clip into other ai units, its especially noticeable with APCs.  Just order a group of 10 to go to one nav, then once they all reach it, tell that same group to go somewhere else.  You will see 2 maybe more APCs overlapping one another due to one clipping into another.

[Spawn]

apcs ALWAYS do that, they always have
they just ignore collision almost to the extent of sav class (the fury thing)

but ive seen it with tanks, they jsut begin to ram into each other and meld, kinda odd but its to be expected i guess

[Avatar]

BZ2 collision is one-way and soft.  

One-way because if something starts inside something else it can sit there all day, there's no colliding involved as long as it only moves away from the object.  

Soft because prior to 1.3 a tenacious Scav could eventually push all the way through a building, which is a holdover from BZ1's method of colliding meant to keep things from getting stuck.

Call it a property of biometal...  it can phase, flow and merge when subjected to physical force.  

-Av-

[technoid]

The distance between same AI units following each other in a line, namely Sabres and Bulldogs, seems to have decreased in 1.3, making it look more and more like a Samba line. The fact that a Sabre closely tailgating another Sabre is warning enough for toasty front hoods.  It's not good either for Bull Dogs, because they are so close to each other, that sometimes they will have a hard time manuevering around each other.  Plus they have less of a window angle to shoot up since the Bulldog in front of it is too close (collisionbox is closer). I did comment on this some time ago, but I guess it got passed.

[Jwk the Hemp Monkey]

Call it a property of biometal... it can phase, flow and merge when subjected to physical force.

I really *really* don't like this explanation....

also, it might seem like an inconvienience now...but i think it has to fixed. Surely there is some simple way of making them not do this? Like make units emit a really strong 'repulse' magnet if a box goes inside a box, making it look like two units just bounced off one another...

[ScarleTomato]

as in biometal is inherently bouncy? :s  I like the melding excuse better.

[Jwk the Hemp Monkey]

really? is that so. Shame that annoying detail of how solid objects don't tend to 'phase' into one another....

[ScarleTomato]

biometal isn't solid! It's alive! I think it works like the far future terminators, or the human form replicators. Cept instead of nanobots it's half-organic, and kinda looks like shape-shifting mercury.

[Avatar]

The current 1.3 build has a fix for pushing through buildings, and for the most part properly created (not by DLL) units don't 'phase'.

The exception is the APC, which seems to be insubstantial.  They'll phase through themselves and mountains and buildings etc. I believe in order to remain airborne.  Not saying that's a "real" reason, but rather a game code one.

Yes, I too can't figure out why something can't be solid ingame.  BZ has always used the 'soft physics' to handle collisions, and BZ2 is better than BZ1 in that regard, but they're still 'soft'.  

As to fixing any of it I believe totally rebuilding the collision code is out of the question at this point.

-Av-