Documentation?

[deadscion]

First of all I would like to compliment the patch team on some key issues.

Reducing Client interference of hosted activities by 90plus  percent
( the brats will always find a way to be brats and will find more in the future so 90 percent is excellent)

The incorporation of previously developed map editor features as well as a huge improvement on the path point editor.

Better sound. This was a big one, now my 5.1 suround sound system has depth to it.

Persdonally I don't have a problem with the current vehicle physics settings, the game is useable and can be made better, or atleast more to the user's liking.


Now for my primary complaint.

You say you have extra mod support, great

You say we can adjust vehicle physics, also super great.

You say the much improved map editor can do more.

You also boast of other refinements and features in the readme13.rtf

My complaint is insufficient documentation.

Sure the changlog mentions everything from a technical point of view, but the readme file called everything something else.

Most folks are going to come here asking about these features when specific info is missing or hard to find.

If you tell me you have added a new feature to the game, great! show me how to use it. Documentation.

I want to see proper documentation, I don't want to see a 1.3 tester boasting about it, while staying tight lipped about what can be done and where.

I am putting together a complete report this weekend.

[BZZERKER]

Have you checked out the Modlog topic also on this board? It should answer a great many questions. If you find something not covered in there just ask and someone should be able to give a decent answer.

[deadscion]

Commnado did an excellent job of documentation for modders.

However, the map editor and vehicle physics need to be detailed.

I had to ask how to edit MPI maps, because I could not find anything to tell me what was going on.

The editor loads an MPI map like I had set the the commandline to -nobodyhome, no objects, no nothing and I am saying WTF?

If I missed some instructions some where fine, but I looked for them and did not find them.

The point is if people have to ask about any particular subject too often then maybe the folks with the knowledge could write it down once. Like Commando did.

Excellent job Commando!


Suggestion: How about a new documentation sticky topic updated only by moderators and such, with an advisory statement  "Check here first before asking any questions" ?

[GSH]

MPI documentation is exactly the same as it's been since 1.2. How much documentation was released by Pandemic with 1.2? Pretty much zero. How much has been generated by the community since then? A fair amount. Stop asking for everything to be handed to you on a silver platter, when it's never been that way. Learn to search the boards and the internet for all the documentation already created.

-- GSH

[Huscar]

no trees or such either on that MPI map? no rec and such makes sense since the needed info from the shell is missing I guess.
Darn now I won't sleep peacefully untill I find out how to change that

I think what you're asking for would be more apropriate as a tutorial though...

[Avatar]

Documentation and examples have been provided for those things that have changed.  As GSH said, much didn't change but has been documented elsewhere... or only in modder's heads.  Most of us have been only to happy to share.

Personally, after spending several weeks poking around the UT2K4 forums I've come to the conclusion that they don't want to share any modding info...  the boards and Community surrounding BZ2 are head over heels better than them...

-Av-

[Angstromicus]

Interesting how information can't be given to you on a silver platter. I'm fairly sure most games that do support modding have documentation. BZII leaves you to find it for yourself unless someone else has discovered it.

I would love to know a documentation on vehicle physics as well.

[OvermindDL1]

I've seen the UT2k4 community doesn't want to give modding info out because their modding wiki is *extremely* large, full of information, most of it well organized.  Kinda like asking about something on these boards where there is a sticky at the top of that board that tells how.

I have to admit though, documentation on the physics params and what they do exactly would be quite nice.

[Red Devil]

I could probably make something like that since I was working for so long on them.  Gosh, that was tedious work.  Tweak a setting, start up BZ, load up a map, check it out, shut it down, tweak it some more, repeat, repeat...... hundreds of times.... ugh!

[Angstromicus]

Thanks in advance.

Would it be a large list?

Here's what I've discovered so far:

*Whatever's in commando's ModLog*

[technoid]

I could probably make something like that since I was working for so long on them.  Gosh, that was tedious work.  Tweak a setting, start up BZ, load up a map, check it out, shut it down, tweak it some more, repeat, repeat...... hundreds of times.... ugh!

One idea I had kicking around was to create a dedicated standalone or addon BZ2 physics engine program, where you would tweak (or with sliders) one parameter and see what it did in realtime.  Then use your movement keys and see what happens.  Think of it like the analog slider controls in the Options/Input/Movement menu, but with much much more other parameters. So, a "wind tunnel" simulator then, i.e. a 3D modeler in statics/dynamics/physics for BZ2!  Of course, I don't have that kinda of programming prowess, so it was/is only a dream.  One problem is you would have to revise the simulator as changes in beta builds occur.

For example, here's a Java-applet atom physics simulator ... http://www.ambromley.co.uk/fizz.html .   Many more out there of course.

As for documentation, kudos to those that actually did work, e.g. Modlog, etc.   

[Spawn]

To see what all the ships abilities are look in a good mod, better modders leave extra things in the odf to show what all the litle things do.

[Avatar]

I've seen the UT2k4 community doesn't want to give modding info out because their modding wiki is *extremely* large, full of information, most of it well organized.  Kinda like asking about something on these boards where there is a sticky at the top of that board that tells how.

I have to admit though, documentation on the physics params and what they do exactly would be quite nice.

My looking around the UT2K4 boards was last year, and at that time I saw no "wiki", a term I've only recently run into btw...  I may have looked right at it and not known what it meant.

Thing is, a lot of the time such info is out there but hard to get to for a reason.  Think of it as a rite of passage, since you need drive, determination, and not a little bit of resourcefulness to successfully create a mod.  Too many 'script kiddies' out there as it is, that just change a few things here and there and call it a mod.  A fully developed modder, one that's fumbled his way through countless hours of experimentation and uncovered the deepest modding secrets on his own, is worth a thousand script kiddies...

I believe at heart the modding community for any game knows this, and may avoid handing things out 'on a silver platter' in order to keep the community strong.

Just my 2cents...  I personally feel you should provide and share all you know to anyone who asks politely, because you never know who's going to turn out to be a stellar modder until you've pumped them full of so much info they don't know up from down...  anyone who survives the inital onslaught of info might just turn out to be an asset to the community. 

-Av-

[Lizard]

this might sound kinda weird but I have been put off modding other games in the past due to too much information, you just see this whole plethora of stuff and you have no clue where to start, it can be strangely daunting. That's not really a serious reason for not documenting stuff but true none the less, with BZ2 you are lulled into a false sense of security, you think to yourself "oh I'm just gonna make a couple of maps that's all", then you think "oh a couple of custom trees would be nice", the next thing you know your 3 years into a 5 year mod project that's totally taken over your life  .


Seriously though it wouldn't be a bad thing to have more documentation, I can sit here and be irritatingly smug now because I've already done my bit with my map making tutorials  , but there is a whole ton of information already out there on these forums and ones like Time Disrupter, the information at Time Disrupter is particularly good and well organised covering a wide variety of topics. The 1.3 changelog is a very informative piece of documentation in itself if you only take the time to read though it ..... and it does take some time . Most of the required information is out there in one form or another, someone could take the time to organise all this info for those that don't wish to go hunting for it, but anyone could do that you don't need to be an experienced modder even, you just need plenty of time and patience .

[OvermindDL1]

- http://wiki.beyondunreal.com/wiki/ - I've needed little else for UT2k4 modding, its been over 5 years in the making for all the UT games.  Modeling sections, level making, coding, etc...  The coding section is geared toward programmers so it is not the easiest thing to read, but it has the information ordered and laid out perfect for a programmer.