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TrackedVehicleClass Physics Problems

Started by General_Hoohah, June 24, 2006, 12:45:13 PM

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General_Hoohah

I’ve decided to start a new topic, since the last one didn’t go so well, to avoid confusion and attract the right posters.

Tracked vehicles have some serious problems with their driving physics. Go drive a scavenger for a while through a complex base, or on a map with lots of sharp turns, cliffs, and water hazards. They are nearly impossible to control.

These problems extend to other tracked vehicles, since they all use the same physics values. This severely limits what you can do with them, and makes them aggravating to drive. It also causes scavengers and other tracked units to disrupt games by plowing into objects and vehicles, getting stuck, falling off cliffs, and falling into water. Here are the problems I have been experimenting with for a while:

1. Doesn't stop fast enough, drifts for too long after you take away your finger from the throttle button/key. This can’t be fixed with the values in the current public beta, because there is no equivalent value to the hover class value, “accelDragStop”, which controls how quick the a hover vehicle stops when you take you’re hands away from the controls.

2. While continuing in a forward or reverse motion, a tracked vehicle takes to long to stop turning after you take you're finger off the turn key. This causes a scav to go in circles with speeds over 20-25, depending on other values.

3. Rocks forward and back too much when accelerating, decelerating, and stopping. The equivalent value to the hover class value, “pitchThrust”, has been added but doesn’t appear to work.

4. While driving in a forward or reverse motion and turning, there is almost no traction, and it slides around too much like you’re driving on ice. The newer values recently added, don’t seem to have much effect at all on this problem.

5. While sliding in the middle of a turn as mentioned in 4, the unit catches or snags on terrain, and hops sideways. It should only do this if it is sliding over a jump, or over the side of a ledge. However, the vehicle seems to do this constantly.

6. Leans too much while turning. The equivalent value to the hover class value, “rollSteer”, has been added but doesn’t appear to work.

7. Unit appears to weigh nothing, and feels like driving a balloon filled with helium. I’m uncertain if this is effecting the traction or not, or if it has to do with it hopping over places where it gets snagged on terrain while sliding around while turning. If you drive off a cliff, it floats slowly down to the ground, like a feather. A vehicle weighing over 50 tons shouldn't do this. The new "Mass" value added recently does not work.
And remember, any problem caused by a tank can be solved by a tank.

Spawn

The falling off a cliff part cannot be fixed in bz2, and has always been there.  The best theory relating to this is Avatar's idea that biometal has a certain amount of anti-gravitational force, but once the mass gets too high the ships can no longer stay in the air and need to be supported on the ground, the first example of this being the bz1 walkers and their reaction to thumper.  A few of the issues might be fixable via increasing the friction to something (absurdly) high.

Also, which physics constants have you tested and at what values?

GSH

People are whining already that scav "pathing" is broken, which I highly doubt is the cause, but is more likely physics changes making things different from 1.2. Any changes to your laundry list would probably cause more subtle bugs elsewhere, and ramp up the whines to jet engine level.

-- GSH

Spawn

It is a problem with the fly code, but in Avatar's theory it works out.  Kind of a bug turned feature, just like bz2 falling.

General_Hoohah

#4
The reason they go off cliffs is because they can't stop or turn in time before they reach the edge. They plow into gun towers and other objects because of the same reason, because they can't turn or stop in time to avoid stationary objects or react in time to moving hazards that cross their path. I made a complex base with lots of obstacles for a scavenger, then placed a piece of bio metal on one side of the base and a scav on the other and ordered it to get the scrap. First it tried to go around the Recycler, but it couldn't turn it time so it got caught on a corner. It had to stop, and try to go around, but I had to get it unstuck first. Then it headed right toward a gun tower and then tried to go around it, but again it couldn't turn in time, so it tried to stop. But of course, it couldn't stop in time, so it rammed right into it and got stuck for several minutes until I finally helped it.

I've also seen them try to turn to avoid water, but since they can't turn, they end up driving through a shallow area. They have to stop in the water, then turn to get out, since they can't turn while in motion. And why don't they stop before they hit the water? Because they can't!

Tracked vehicles have some serious problems. I've sat here and watched them do stuff like this countless times, so I doubt its the pathing or any of that other stuff.

Fixing these problems shouldn't cause people to whine.... Why would someone whine if scavengers aren't getting stuck, driving off cliffs and into water, plowing through units you just organized into an attack formation, or ramming into commanders while their trying to tell their constructor where to build?
And remember, any problem caused by a tank can be solved by a tank.

Angstromicus

Lol I definitely could go for some ragdoll physics in BZII.

Pilot ejects from sabre, lands on mountain side, and tumbles all the way down, into an extractor, and gets chopped up in the spinning blades.

Avatar

Quote from: General_Hoohah on June 24, 2006, 07:09:31 PM
The reason they go off cliffs is because they can't stop or turn in time before they reach the edge. They plow into gun towers and other objects because of the same reason, because they can't turn or stop in time to avoid stationary objects or react in time to moving hazards that cross their path. I made a complex base with lots of obstacles for a scavenger, then placed a piece of bio metal on one side of the base and a scav on the other and ordered it to get the scrap. First it tried to go around the Recycler, but it couldn't turn it time so it got caught on a corner. It had to stop, and try to go around, but I had to get it unstuck first. Then it headed right toward a gun tower and then tried to go around it, but again it couldn't turn in time, so it tried to stop. But of course, it couldn't stop in time, so it rammed right into it and got stuck for several minutes until I finally helped it.

I've also seen them try to turn to avoid water, but since they can't turn, they end up driving through a shallow area. They have to stop in the water, then turn to get out, since they can't turn while in motion. And why don't they stop before they hit the water? Because they can't!

Tracked vehicles have some serious problems. I've sat here and watched them do stuff like this countless times, so I doubt its the pathing or any of that other stuff.

Fixing these problems shouldn't cause people to whine.... Why would someone whine if scavengers aren't getting stuck, driving off cliffs and into water, plowing through units you just organized into an attack formation, or ramming into commanders while their trying to tell their constructor where to build?

I think you're talking about performance of AI driven units?  They've never been all that bright at maneuvering, and tracked units just show off their stupidity more since they're restricted in moving certain ways.

I've had a lot of success tweaking alphaSteer for AI craft, it helps them respond in time when coupled with good brakes and enough acceleration thrust.

-Av- 


General_Hoohah

What you say is true Avatar. However, there lies the problem. There are no breaks! Also, they can't stop turning while in motion, even though they are trying to or. Sit in a scav and go forward, then turn hard. Take your finger off the turn key and see what I mean. The problem gets worse and worse as you add speed. Also as you add speed, it starts to slide more and more while turning, like you're driving on ice.
And remember, any problem caused by a tank can be solved by a tank.

mrtwosheds

bz tracked vehicles cannot handle speed at all, it is best to make them slow, very slow, big helps too, small and fast means they will behave like service trucks.......Its the low gravity...... :-D

General_Hoohah

The fact that they can't handle any speed is exactly one of the problems. Kind of stating the obvious, but a very good point none the less. :) The mass value really needs to be fixed, and who knows? That may actually fix a lot of things like sliding around, floating through the air after a jump, and maybe increase traction.

This actually remindes me of something I forgot to mention. I noticed that when a scav slides around while turning, while driving forward, the outer most tracks (wheels) in relation to which direction you're turning seem to sink slightly farther and farther as you continue to turn, until they catch on the terrain. I think this is why they do that. I don't know why, but I think this is a bug.
And remember, any problem caused by a tank can be solved by a tank.

GSH

Mass does not affect physics. Never has. Never will. It only affects collisions and possibly bumps due to explosions.

You can state the "obvious" all day: BZ2's physics aren't perfect. However, they never will be. And especially because lots of people whined like crazy the last time some physics fixes were implemented, I'd rather not bother.

-- GSH

General_Hoohah

Did they even give you a chance, or did they just bitch, gripe, and complain before you got anywhere with it? If they never gave you a chance in the first place, then tell them where they can stick it and fix it anyway. That's what I'd do. And I wouldn't listen to any of their griping until I had actually gotten somewhere with it. I won't bitch at you GSH. I'd even stick it out and work with you and take some of the flack for it, and I'm sure a lot of other people would to. Go on, give it a try. I'm behind you. I'd love to put in the time, and work to assist in any way I can help with the physics. :)
And remember, any problem caused by a tank can be solved by a tank.

Angstromicus


GSH

Two people versus a cabal of people organized by certain types who want everything identical. Not too appealing.

Go mess with ODF parameters yourself. Especially those with things like friction in the name.

-- GSH

Bob the Dinosuar

Red is/was/should be fixing the physics anyway.  I didn't play either BZII enough to care if the physics were off, the only thing I missed was being able to blast Maulers miles away with MAG.

That was fun  :-D

But somewhat pointless, and no, I'm not complaining.  I couldnt' 'fly' anyway, and personally I think flying should be reserved for vehicles that actually can fly.