Poly count for BZII models and props to optimize performance in game.

[BNG Da BZ Fool]

I've been making some models for GH's 20th century mod and I was wondering in particular what the poly count range that I should target to keep stuff placed in the game from negatively affecting performance (lagging). The highest ploy count I can currently make are models of 650 polygons or less. Is this ideal to keep the game running normally. I already know that one of the problems associated with lagging is caused by too many AI units being produced which somehow overwhelms the BZII engine resulting in the game slowing down so much that the game crashes eventually. Also is there a good model to use to get a scale reference for models and props I make? Tanks in advance...BNG.

[Lizard]

I don't think polygon counts are quite such an issue these days, 650 polygons is certainly more than acceptable for units and buildings , infact most things really, I think that the number of objects in a map was far more of a problem than polygon counts and more likely to cause slowdown , if you are worried about the polygon count of a certain object you can always create low detail LOD models.

These LOD models can be used to replace the more detailed version of the model at longer distances when the object detail is set to medium in the graphics options, you can have many LOD models of slowly diminishing polygon counts if you want all set to cut in at whatever distance from the player you desire ( you can spoecify LOD distance in the object's ODF file) .

When the object detail settings are set to low in the graphics options the lower detail LOD1 model will replace the standard high detail model .

I don't think you can use animations on LOD's so you couldn't make LOD's for a walker for instance .


just as a general guide to polygon counts - the stock  ships have approx 300 - 700 polygons each with the average count being around 500 polygons,  polygon counts for the scion units are slightly lower on average .

I think that FE pushed the general detail level of units up a little bit more , as did Fleshstorm - my general rule of thumb was to keep polygon counts below 1000 for units and buildings and make LOD's wherever possible.



....... I coulda just said yes 650 polygons should be fine really  .

[Steeveeo]

I don't think you can use animations on LOD's so you couldn't make LOD's for a walker for instance .

Not true, actually. Look at a pilot from a distance through the sniperscope in game. Its severely degraded (very low poly LOD) from a far, but is still animated.

Well, at least on my machine it is...

[GreenHeart]

well you can always use the "mrmFactor = 0" to cut down some poly's.   Mainly used for pilots,walkers, and Scion Sphere....

[Lizard]

I don't think you can use animations on LOD's so you couldn't make LOD's for a walker for instance .

Not true, actually. Look at a pilot from a distance through the sniperscope in game. Its severely degraded (very low poly LOD) from a far, but is still animated.

Well, at least on my machine it is...

check the stock ODF and XSI files only the non animated ISDF vehicles have LOD models and they are the only ones with LOD's specified in the ODF's, none of the scion vehicles have LOD models ( presumably because they have morph animations) , neither the ISDF or Scion turrets have LOD models either but the Scion buildings do.


I'm not sure how they did the LOD on pilots but they weren't using seperate models like they did with the ISDF tanks.

[Commando]

Its due to mrmfactor.  If you set it to 0, it eliminates the detail degredation.

[Avatar]

LOD models are static, and do not reflect the animated orientation of the model they're replacing.

That is, a GT LOD model turret won't rotate to match the actual model.  It just sits there regardless of how many pieces it's made of or what they're named.  I make pretty much all of my LOD models as a single piece because of this.

You don't need to go nuts with a LOD model, it's supposed to look like the original unit does from 3 or 4 hundred meters away...  so drop your main unit in the engine and cruise some distance away to get an idea of what the LOD should look like.  I also try to use the main unit's texture whenever possible, but sometimes for a very simple LOD it's better to just use a screen capture of the original unit from a distance.

The main model shown below has 228 verticies, 385 faces.  The LOD1 model has 95 verts, 169 faces and uses the original texture.  The LOD2 has 38/58 and uses a custom, 64x64 texture.



The animation limitation is why they didn't use LOD models for pilots or walkers, using MRM instead.  MRM is "Multi-Resolution-Mesh" technology from Intel and while it helped bankroll the game it can really mangle a pilot when you zoom in.  It DOES look good from a distance, though, and since it's automatic and based on the actual mesh it saves you the memory the LOD models take up.

-Av-

[BNG Da BZ Fool]

Don't really know how relevent this is but I found that polygon reduction of a high poly model can be reduced significantly by creating a simple plane object and creating an object union with the high poly model. Afterwards, the plane can be deleted leaving the high poly object with a lower poly count. I used this technique on some BZII XSI terrain exports from the editor, convert the XSI to X in 3DEX 1.5, and then opened in GSL. The terrain object which had an extremely high ploy count with a ton of small triangles in the thousands was reduced to a few hundred poly's by applying an object union to a plane type object. Afterwards, I just deleted the plane object and was able to save the file as GSL only allows saving objects up to 650 faces. I find the XSI terrrain useful for creating premade  building structure types for props easy. The reduced poly terrain objects can further be edited to add structure details in GSL...BNG. 

[BNG Da BZ Fool]

Another discovery I've made is to load COB files converted from XSI ones to edit them in GSL. Applying the method above to the individual high poly parts to reduce them down to savable size in GSL. The process is somewhat tedious, but allows me to edit/modify the geometry files to make variants of the different models for my own use. So far, I've added most of the IDF and Scion buildings to individual object libraries for future modification purposes. The object libraries are easy to manage and allow me to easily substitute out different parts of various model parts to make new variants of existing models. I like using it as GSL allows me to right click an object in the work space and edit the geometry of the object with it's editing tools...BNG

[BNG Da BZ Fool]

Another simple but tedious method of reducing poly count at least in GSL that I know of is to load the model into the editor, right click the model to bring up the editing control panel, select the vertice selection tool, highlite an individual vertice (lines that intersect 2 triangular faces and then select the delete vertice tool. This only works on faces that are flat, but many faces are just that and deleting the vertice on such faces can dramatically reduce a high poly model down quite significantly when applied carefully. Remember to work slowly and use the undo button if you accidentally delete something  you didn't want deleted.

[mrtwosheds]

Using my odd building technique leaves me with very little scope when it comes to lod models.
So I try to design stuff as low as possible to start with and then just replace complex components with with simpler ones, The dalek eyestalk, 2 sphere's 1 cylinder 3 rings, just becomes 1 cylinder with an extruded end for example. (I do not notice the change at all in game) But usually attempting to reduce a models polys alters it so much that it no longer resembles the original and its texture no longer fits.
Many of my models do not have lods, because I cannot make them any lower.
Hopefully the increase in computer power since the game was first made will mean that this is not a big issue.
I always thought the scion scout looked weird and bent sometimes, it is, its LOD model is un-symmetrically triangulated and ugly.

[BNG Da BZ Fool]

Part of the problem with GSL is the 650 poly limit for saving model files. Then the problem is aggravated when saving them to the X format where triangulation is part of making it usable for BZ2ME and eventually for final conversion to XSI. Effectively (doubling the poly count) making it unusable for reediting in GSL again.

You can reload the X model just fine but saving it is not possible after editing it. I guess I'm trying to learn as much as I can about GSL so that I can eventually move on to Truespace 3.2, which has a very similar UI and no such poly save limitations. Either that or find another 3d modeler easy enough to master yet simple enough for the average person to make any sense of.

I have one of your Dalek units, but I don't remember where I got it from. It appears to be very complex in design and have a high poly count. Does it perform well in the game? It's the one that you show in your avatar thing MTS.

Anyways, from what I've gleaned so far about poly counts for models; don't use anymore then are necessary to create your models to achieve the look you want. 

[mrtwosheds]

ALERT! ALERT! DATA LEAKAGE SUSPECTED! IDENTIFY SECURITY BREACH AND EXTERMINATE ALL SLAVE SPECIES! REPORT ANY SUSPECTED INTRUSIONS WITH PRIORITY 1.

REPORT: NO INFORMATION LEAKAGE HAS BEEN IDENTIFIED, ALL SECURITY SYSTEMS CHECKED AND PASSED.
CLAIM BY HUMAN TO HAVE POSSESSION OF DALEK TECHNOLOGY MUST BE VERIFIED. THE HUMAN MUST BE EXTERMINATED IF THE CLAIM IS CORRECT, THE TECHNOLOGY MUST BE RECOVERED OR DESTROYED!   

None of my units have been released....maybe its one of Lizards daleks?

[Nielk1]

There is one in the FEDATA.pak

I think that is from before mrtwosheds started. Also, I PMed ya about something 2Shed (sounds like a rapper name).

[BNG Da BZ Fool]

Get a load of this...the X format that TS 3.2 saves in isn't the same format that GSL save in, and therefore is unreadable by BZ2ME. TS does save as COB and MAX ASC which are both readable by 3DEX 1.5 and convertable to X for BZ2ME use.

I've started creating stuff in TS and basically it's just a simpler form of the user friendly UI in GSL. Anyone comfortable with GSL can easily make the transition to TS with a little patients. TS, has no UV map unwrapper, but can map models for processing in either GSL which has a nice simple UV unwrapper or in Lithunwrap for more complex skins. The biggest benefit to using TS is that very complex high poly models can be created and saved w/o a problem. Both programs also use the very same sweep (extrusion) tool, and creating custom geometric objects is a piece of cake to make with either prog. FYI