Freedom vs Equality • Captialism vs Socialism

[SkyNET]

The problem with communism is that it doesn't take into consideration the fact that people are individuals.

Equality is just a buzzword. It you're discriminated against, deal with it. If you want something, take it. Human rights are not granted by an organization but by the individual themselves. You only have rights if you fight for them.

[CivBase]

Freedom vs Equality? I can't see those two being opposites. If you're in a minority group and have the same rights (equal) as everyone else, you are "free" to do the things that other people can do, so you have both. I don't believe that those two (freedom and equality) are non-existent, I just think that the definition of those two words are based on opinion. You could almost say they're a unit of measurement.

They're not opposites... but they are rarely found together.  How can you be totaly free to do whatever you want when you are brought to the same level as everyone else?  You are not free to move up, you are not free to move down, you are not free to be an individual.

[SkyNET]

Somebody tell me what equality means.

[OvermindDL1]

Ah, I love defining things with google, so here is what google has to say:

Definitions of equality on the Web:

    * the quality of being the same in quantity or measure or value or status
    * a state of being essentially equal or equivalent; equally balanced; "on a par with the best"
      wordnet.princeton.edu/perl/webwn

    * Equality is the paradigmatic example of the more general concept of equivalence relations on a set: those binary relations that are reflexive, symmetric, and transitive. It goes beyond the other equivalence relations by also being antisymmetric. ...
      en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Equality (mathematics)

    * The fact of being equal; (mathematics) The fact of being equal, of having the same value; The equal treatment of people irrespective of social or cultural differences
      en.wiktionary.org/wiki/equality

    * The state of being equal and fair.
      consultation.hartlepool.gov.uk/inovem/gf2.ti/f/7362/23301.1/dot/-/Compact%20Jargon%20Buster%20DRAFTamended.doc

    * a measure of how similar people are to one another. It can be measured quantitatively with such measures as wealth concentration, Gini ...
      oregonstate.edu/instruct/anth370/gloss.html

    * suggests equal access to resources and opportunities and equal participation in all realms of society for women and men, but also for members of ...
      www.fasngo.org/terms.html

    * two diagonals stretching from squares 30 to 12 and 3 to 21
      www.checkerschest.com/glossary.htm

    * The principle by which all persons or things under consideration are treated in the same way.
      www.emro.who.int/mei/mep/Healthsystemsglossary.htm

    * Procedural (eg, political, legal?) - substantive (eg, social, economic, moral? religious?) - relationship between the government and equality?
      faculty.smu.edu/jkobylka/American%20Political%20Thought/Concepts1.doc

    * Diversity and Public & Patient Involvement Implications:
      www.slam.nhs.uk/news/boardmin/docs/07nov06/TORforAcFin10-06.doc

    * Ensure income distribution at any given time will not become less equitable over time.
      www.pgia.ac.lk/notes/ec/EC%205153/RPM%20EC%205153%20L%20No%202%20%20Nov%2018%2006.ppt

    * The condition of possessing substantially the same rights, privileges and immunities, and being substantially responsible for the same duties as other members of society.
      www.cbsd.org/holicong/jendorman/PA_socialstudies_standards_vocabulary.htm

    * meaning that the filter is false. There must be exactly one value of the OM attribute Attribute-Values.
      docs.sun.com/app/docs/doc/802-5047/6i8r5o8vl

Generated by OvermindDL1's Signature Auto-Add Script that OvermindDL1 did manually since Greasemonkey does not work in Firefox 3.1 yet...

[Axeminister]

It's up to the government of each country to decide this stuff. Is Soviet Union free to choose which way to go, yes, well that's freedom in and of itself. Of course the "people" want what's on the other side of the fence if it looks good and they don't want what looks bad. Americans don't want the Government to change the course because they see Soviet people as being oppressed, and Soviets don't want to change course because they see the American people as being unbridled. Some people spank their children, some don't, it doesn't matter because it's just the way you were taught. I can't say I prefer one way or the other because I've never lived through the Soviet way.

[SkyNET]

So you'd like to have your government rule over your personal life? There's a difference between spaking an errant child and dictating what people can't and can't do\say\think.

[bigbadbogie]

Has Half-life 2 taught you nothing?

[Avatar]

They're not opposites... but they are rarely found together.  How can you be totaly free to do whatever you want when you are brought to the same level as everyone else?  You are not free to move up, you are not free to move down, you are not free to be an individual.

If you think any Communist government so far on this Planet has actually upheld the Communist ideal, in that everyone is completely equal, then you're fooling yourself.  All societies so far have had their cliques, their 'upper crust', and their 'downtrodden'.

If you take a room full of people, any people...
give them all the same amount of money, any amount...
wait a period of time, (not any time, has to be a decent interval)...
a few will have nothing, a few will have what they started with, and a few will have more.

If you repeat this experiment you'll find a certain group always ends up with more, and a certain group always ends up with less.

THAT is nature in general, and very much human nature.  It's not normal for everyone to be exactly equal, there has to be an alpha, a beta, and a bunch of gammas...

-Av-

[Red Devil]

I think that all you guys who have more money than me should give it to me so that we'll be equals.

[bigbadbogie]

Yeah - lets give all this money that it took a lifetime to earn to that little bum out the back who just got out of jail for murder and make society equal.

Socialism is the stupidest thing ever devised.

[mrtwosheds]

Communism sucked and died.
But we are now at the point were it is clear that some freedoms do need to be curtailed, having our planet made uninhabitable by people being free to do whatever they want to it, is not a freedom any sane intelligent people would want.

And now we must learn that freedom must have limits.

This is not an invitation for the mad and stupid to start posting their reality denying opinions. 

[Avatar]

Communism sucked and died.

Oh it's definitely not dead...  it's such an attractive concept to those that can't seem to get ahead in life that it'll never die.  Every time you see someone trying to raise the minimum wage, or bringing up national healthcare, or basically any time you see something that aims to let the Government handle some aspect of life instead of letting market pressures dictate terms...  that's socialism, or society by the State.

The US Government bailing out Wall Street for a share in the businesses...  the 'Economic Stimulus Payments'...  these things should raise a flag for any Democratic society...

Someone said Democracies can only survive until the voters discover they can vote themselves money...

Maybe we'll see if that's true.

-Av-

[SkyNET]

This is not an invitation for the mad and stupid to start posting their reality denying opinions. 

That's definitely going to scare people away from doing so. Freedom doesn't need to be limited by any external forces. People need to learn discipline for themselves, not have it forced onto them.

@Av:Don't forget, the US isn't a democracy but a constitutional republic. But that's besides the point, as the things you brough up(bailout and etc.) should raise said flags anyway.

[mrtwosheds]

Socialism and Communism are not the same thing.
Socialism will build a health service for all of its people, they are still free to make other choices.
Communism will attempt to build a health service (and probably fail) for all its people and then deny them any other choice.
Capitalism does not build a health service, it only serves those who can afford it.

From here in Europe, this US argument about health services, looks very odd, (we all have health services available to all (even Americans!)) Lots of propaganda aimed at the well off, trying to tell them that health care for the poor is a bad thing! Very selfish, sounds like the UK in the 1930's. A damn good bombing of our city's by the Germans sorted that out. No political party would dare put forward a non inclusive health care system, it would be political suicide.

Freedom doesn't need to be limited by any external forces.

The purpose of Laws is to limit freedom, I am sure you are not an Anarchist, I know a few, they are all selfish idiots.

that's socialism, or society by the State.

It a damn sight better than the other currently available option. The state brought to you via global corporations.

[CivBase]

Socialism and Communism are not the same thing.

In truth, communism is closer to capitalism than it is to socialism.  However, historical communism is closer to socialism.  The difference is, in socialism and capitalism, people own their own land and property.  In communism, however, the property belongs to the people (and in historical communism, the government).

Socialism will build a health service for all of its people, they are still free to make other choices.
Communism will attempt to build a health service (and probably fail) for all its people and then deny them any other choice.
Capitalism does not build a health service, it only serves those who can afford it.

But in captialism, everyone has a chance to afford it, and there are different levels.  So you can actualy get better healthcare than the government can supply.

From here in Europe, this US argument about health services, looks very odd, (we all have health services available to all (even Americans!)) Lots of propaganda aimed at the well off, trying to tell them that health care for the poor is a bad thing! Very selfish, sounds like the UK in the 1930's.

Selfish?  You think that us not wanting to give our hard earned cash to the lazy people and all the invading immigrants is selfish?  Keep in mind that your entire government is socialistic, ours isn't and the only thing that would change in this is healthcare.  What people need to realise is that healthcare is insurance.  What happens when everyone has the same exact insurance?  Well, unless the govt owns the hospitals too (not going to happen because our govt is so terrible at handeling money), then the hospitals will just raise their prices.  Problem solved... for them.

A damn good bombing of our city's by the Germans sorted that out. No political party would dare put forward a non inclusive health care system, it would be political suicide.

Well, we don't have a crazy dictator trying to conquer all of the Americas, do we?
*looks at TV and sees a picture of Castro*
Never mind....

The purpose of Laws is to limit freedom, I am sure you are not an Anarchist, I know a few, they are all selfish idiots.

I'm not an anarchist, though I know this wasn't aimed at me.  I do believe that social contracts are in order for a healthy society.

  It a damn sight better than the other currently available option. The state brought to you via global corporations.

What other options do you see?
I think that a great option would be the government trying to prevent the lobbying of pharmacies and other medical companies.  That'd fix a ton and not force equality down on us.