Wobble kill and hover killing in 1.3

[PhoeniX-FlamE]

lost ya...

[Aegeis]

Anyone in the know know if gun towers became anti wobbable again in the latest incarnation of the 1.3 beta?  And if they have not then at least tell me turrets will shoot straight up.

[Huscar]

Might not require skill but it doesn't look like a bug, sure GT could use something against these repeated things, but hey, their just automatic defenses themselves!

[DarkFox]

I never ever considered the wobbling a bug. Here is some back-up to the reasons WHY I think wobble-killing should be allowed:

Gunspire:
Cost: 75
Health: 6500
Build: Anywhere
Damage to scouts: 500 / second
Damage to tanks: 250 / second
Damage to heavy: 125 / second

Guntower:
Cost: 50 + 10 (power)
Health: 5000
Build: Bunker
Damage to scouts: 714 / second
Damage to tanks: 542 / second
Damage to heavy: 214 / second

The extra health on a gunspire is nice, but it certainly doesn't make up for the *huge* damage of the guntower. Likewise building anywhere is a *very* nice bonus, but by recycling the commbunker it's possible to get a guntower build at a pool for only 50+30 scrap, which with the bz2 scrap system usualy ends up cheaper than a spire. As base defenses, the guntower is much cheaper and much more powerful.


So I sit back and ask myself... WHY is the guntower so much better than the spire? Then I remember, the spire shots don't travel through the air... that must be it.
All wobblekilling does is exploit the weakness of a guntower. I personally believe what FE did was perfect - making wobblekilling possible only at about 160m+, so that chains can't be used to wobble a tower, but removing wobbling completely is removing the biggest weakness of the tower. In that case it's price would be too low for the devastating guntower you're getting.

And if you're having trouble with people wobbling your towers - just build a rocket tank by them. Not only will it go a huge way to defend against heavy armour like maulers, it will also stop your tower from being wobblekilled. Added bonus: It functions as anti-air to stop your base being hovered.
It perplexes me that when people see something that's beating them, they come and call them 'bugs' on the board rather than give a little thought to some game strategy and come up with a counter.

[Aegeis]

...And if they have not then at least tell me turrets will shoot straight up.

[TimeVirus]

Wobbling gun towers *not* a cheap ass tactic? The main reason I got involved with FE 3 years ago is to fix that ridiculous bug. Comparing towers to spires is a specious argument that has no bearing on the matter at all.


A giant heavy armor gun tower hurling globs of deadly plasma at a *scout class* no-armor unit should not succumb while the scout gets away with 10% damage. That's the most blatant imbalance in the entire freakin game.



.

[PhoeniX-FlamE]

u can hover kill a gs as well  

[Aegeis]

Boobs, stop syaing that cuz u dind't do it that game, u landed on the globe and killed that thing LOL!  

[DarkFox]

As I stated, I don't think wobble should be removed completely, but I *do* think that the fixes you did for FE were the perfect solution... Still allowing missile scouts and scion arc scouts to wobble a tower to death, albeit with a fair bit of damage, and removing the ability for low-tech units like empty chainscouts to do so.

Thing is, as I said, a single rocket tank fixes things.
In starcraft when a zerg player builds only sunken colonies, you can destroy them with 1 cheap air unit without taking a hit. - They need a spore colony to help the sunken.
In starcraft a cloaked unit can entirely destroy a commbunker. You need a missile turret to detect cloaked units for you.
In command and conquer you can destroy an obelisk with 1 walker, or a sam site with one grenadier. You need the two to back each other up.
In Total annihilation you can destroy an intimidator with a single gunship... They need defenders for anti-air.

My point: In every strategy game there are examples of defenses needing backup from other units. There will be no strategy LEFT in BZ2 if everything that isn't a stand-up dogfight or outranging base defense gets regarded as lame, but that's the way we're headed here.

The fault isn't in a unit having 1 or many major weaknesses (that's strategy). The fault is with how unavailable the rocket tank is at that stage of the game, and how easily the turret that backs up a tower can be dispatched. The fix you offered, TV, making guntowers unwobbleable below about 160m range, was perfect, since it stopped chains, SP, quill... The weapons that are available early and do horrific damage to heavy armour.

My annoyance isn't with those that oppose wobble-killing, it's with those that don't realise that you actually need some unit strategy to defend against certain tactics. It's as if 90% of battlezone2 players don't know what unit strategy is at all.

Oh, and in-closing:

A giant heavy armor gun tower hurling globs of deadly plasma at a *scout class* no-armor unit should not succumb while the scout gets away with 10% damage.

I'm of the opinion that the biggest disadvantage of being slow and heavy and firing big heavy globs of deadly plasma, is having a fast, nimble unit dodge your big globs with his agility, and gun you down while doing it. Just a thought...

[PhoeniX-FlamE]

Boobs, stop syaing that cuz u dind't do it that game, u landed on the globe and killed that thing LOL!

that was probably rob... he does that alot from what i heard... you can hover (yes hover! - from side to side) and the spire will miss... i can do it perfact in 180m but then my chains wont hit... but if i got full i can shad it from 180 m in air... u can also do it 160 or something like that so ur chains will hit (i know chains is not 160... but its the edge kill thingy ) but its quite harder

[Jwk the Hemp Monkey]

I agree with Dark fox entirely (and was about to make esentially the same post). This is another case where the fixes in FE are needed to be returned to 1.3.

FE was a leap in the right direction.

[TimeVirus]

I guess I should clear that up. When I first heard about FE, the first post I ever made on their board was to request that wobble killing be addressed. Then I joined the beta team when they replied postively. Pastell designed/implemented the fix I believe, by doubling the shot speed. This does work fine, but in my opinion it's overkill and altered mcurtain strategies too greatly. Also it is nearly impossible to wobble them, and I dont think it should be impossible, just not *free* or a mere 10% health loss.

So in ZST I think we got it just right, only 20% faster shotspeed so mcurtains not affected badly, and bigger ground splash damage vs scouts. This still allows skillful wobblers the chance to beat up GTs, but makes it cost a fair price it so it's no longer "cheap" (low or no cost for results).

I understand about all the teqchiques of multiple units defending, but the point is it ruins the game if the only winning strategy is to race for chains with a lighlty defended base and rape the gts and builders with $20 chain empties.

True balance is if a commander chooses GTs before a fac and arm and still has a roughly equivalent chance of winning if teams are even.

[Jwk the Hemp Monkey]

...In FE a chain rush really is not the best option. Esp vs hadeans. And that is with the current rev.c.

EDIT : I think that the current 'double fire' solution works perfectly. Your suggestion seems to be a little bit over kill. Not much mind. Also, just like in real war, offenciveness should be *slightly* more rewarded than being defencive. Again, current FE solution seems best.

[PhoeniX-FlamE]

OT:

$20 chain empties

u can buy em in USA?! WHERE?!

back to topic:
well, i go for tank rush, and --> chain rush on the way =P
i either tank rush or walker rush  
id have to say i prefer ZST soultion rather then FE one... cant point out the reasons... the faster gt also helps against pummel rushs... while in FE u can have the rec def for that... more to add the faster gts are way better at killing pesky hovers while in FE u can hover almost with np...
there are few ways u can wobble kill a gt in ZST though... but not with a empty chain scout

[DarkFox]

id have to say i prefer ZST soultion rather then FE one... cant point out the reasons... the faster gt also helps against pummel rushs... while in FE u can have the rec def for that... more to add the faster gts are way better at killing pesky hovers while in FE u can hover almost with np...

You're getting mixed up phoenix - the FE guntower shots travel at 2.0 times the normal speed... the ZST tower shots fire at 1.2 times the normal speed.
It's the fe towers that make flying hard.