New 1.3 Bugs Version 2

[SkyNET]

What are you talking about...

I just listed above why the puma and dragoon are not too powerful...tanks are definitely better...

Puma with blast+dual shadower is definitley powerful.

Dragon with assault gauss\ion gun+stinger msl is deadly. It flies fast too.

[Wingflier]

In 1.2, you might have been able to destroy a tank with 2 scouts, maybe even one...

But in 1.3, sorry, that crap does not fly...

Tanks own scouts...period...you of all people should know that...

I don't care about 1.2, and adding the puma or dragoon to 1.2 might make unbalanced...

As for your other comments about adding the puma and dragoon, it's hard to reply because you are hard to understand.  Please use periods and commas and make your grammar more clear.  I would like to understand your objections.

Wingflier

[SkyNET]

Uh, he IS using periods and commas.

Even exclamation marks!

[Wingflier]

Come on dude, he doesn't even capatilize after his periods.

I can use, lots, and, will, you know what I'm.  Talk about?

Adam

[BZ FeebleEffort]

My My isn't balance FUN?!

This is just the tip of the iceberg Wingflier....Balance was discussed early in 1.3 testing and became a massive disaster...why?

Because varying skills, varying playstyles(Single player, MPI, strat afficienados etc)....It is nearly impossible to make BZ 2 "All things for All players"...The mulitple variations of Ships/weapons/races gameplay formats makes  Balancing them NEARLY impossible...Thus the reason why I said LOOOOOONG ago in 1.3 testing to look VERY carefully at any balance changes made to 1.3 because 1.2 (as is) is very well balanced-yes...we all know it has quirks, but very few FATAL flaws).

In spite of the attempts to be civil, curteous, helpful (whatever) in 1.3 "closed beta", the whole process degraded into near chaos and a great deal of anger amongst the warring factions (testers). At the point I got "outted" of the "closed beta"  in my judgement 1.3 need alot of work to FIX what we(and I had my share of responsibility for) had screwed up..again, the ill-fated attempt to be "all things to all players".

I've seen posts earlier where some testers think 1.3 balance is "good as is"...I can't attest to this because 1.3 pb is unplayable for me. And I don't know what "balance changes" have been made while the continuing work on 1.3 goes on...But I have my doubts much has really been done to it, because I don't know of anyone but the RIP guys who play multiplayer strat games and they haven't let any word out about any "balance fixing" going on. I suspect that the 1.3 work that is going on  is more focused on just getting the patch to function reliably, that was always Nathans Modous Apparendi (and as much as I am personna non grata in Nathans view, BUT, on this 1 subject I dare say I agree with him) Fix the basic patch, before you try to work on the balance issues...especially when your beta group is small, and you have virtually no human vs human strat games getting tested.

Now, back to my point..."adding ships willy nilly" is much harder than you think.....You'll have a very very hard time reaching concensus on what "balanced is" when or if 1.3 gets a second "public beta" to work on balance, don't create a even more difficult task by adding new ships and new variables to a already moving target.


AHHH yeah...1.3 posting, it nearly gave me a ulcer before...someone please shoot me before I get outta hand.

[APCs r evil]

sorry didn't get to finish that post...had to go to class...

Anyways...

I think BZ2 is really in need of the Puma and the Dragoon.  Pharoh, at least, agrees with me on this one.

Think about it:
BZ2 goes like this - Empty Scout - Scout - Tank

Isn't that quite a leap?  From a scout to a tank?  It's not like there's an alternative...when people start getting tanks scouts become obsolete for dogfighting..(at least in 1.3)

Scouts still get used, I agree, but usually for hit and run attacks on extractors, and that's in the late game where the tanks would be the most dominant anyways..

(1) Acutally it's more like,
"Scout - Empty Scout - Scout - Tank/Sentry - Warrior"

(2) Scions have one, Sentries.

(3) I disagree, scouts can be used late-game to fight tanks, but tanks can pump out more damage to take down pools. Scion scouts which have similar attack power to the Warriors, are much smaller, and much faster. In my humble opinion commanders should use scouts late game because of their speed and radar range. But the thugs should be in tanks as much as possible.

[Wingflier]

I don't understand...why would it be beneficial to a commander to be in a scout in the later game??

Please be more specific APCs

Adam

[Bull Dog]

Becuase then the Scout can keep up with and shoot down the enemy's bomber.

[SkyNET]

Come on dude, he doesn't even capatilize after his periods.

I can use, lots, and, will, you know what I'm.  Talk about?

Adam

Please re-read it then.

much less in their range. Empties

killing pools. A scout

at least one will escape. Besides

Besides, do capitals really matter? you can read this, can you?

Anyway, shouldn't balance be done on vehicle function rather than player skill?

[PhoeniX-FlamE]

I realy dont see dragoon useful

sure, gauss is very deadly morphed BUT - dragoon have much much lower ammo then a warrior meaning not even 20 shots, the dragoon is wacky and quite hard to control (probably very laggy as well - which is another reason it should'nt be in)
and morphed they got lower health now, give me one example of someone who will prefer a dragoon over an arc/sonic blink scout / warrior

stingers arent that useful, and if you wanna go about gauss long range - arc is 175, more then enough to outrnage turrets, and as for gts, you cant get in their range and still get few shots - because you got absro and then you just blink away
or just wobble kill it with a scout


puma, aha - the puma, not much knowledge about it still - dual shads? hmm whats the point of msl scout then? ill tell ya, non
more to add, boy, isnt it fun to give isdf MORE units to kill scion ships?
but since I dont know much about the puma I'll move on

who the *Ammo* said tanks are better then chain scouts?
2 chain scouts > sp tank badly
1 chain scout can kill 1 sp tank alone
2 warpy chain scout probably > blast chain tank [depends whos driving]
3 scouts > blast tank easily    [note: doesnt metter if they are empty or fulls - but they got chains]
in the current form of the 1.3 PB 1 scout can probably kill a blast tank by itself, because it wasssssss so warpy that the tank dont got a chance to hit

on the side - blast laser tank is a good scout killer but it gotta start earlier and be very accurate to survive vrs 3
for some - even dealing with 2 is hard

as for commander in scout - well it realy realy depends whos cmding, most people that command cant dogfight well, what they do when they command is usualy stick to pools or stay around base, some even stay pilots
while the more exprienced will usualy take the highest tech unless they got someone they realy trust with the tech [usualy the first full scout or tank goes to best thug]

people realy undermaiste scouts in late game as well
and heres and example:
all your team in blast tanks, they are preaty much only defending with chain scouts, they hit you abit and run, you dont get to kill much but you manage to get their defense down, now - being a tank and rushing in to kill their buildings will get you EASILY killed, while if you get 1 smart enough guy in a scout he will tear down their base much more effectivly [espicely in ZST / 1.2 where you can still hover] and here are 2 reasons why:
1. he's warpy, he dont care about getting hit because he wont get hit much
2.if he dies its np - only 40 scrap on an upgraded, about 20 secs to build a new one
3. he's fast --> he can get away, recharged and come back easily - much more effective then a blast - chain tank
and as I already mentioned - in 1.2 / ZST / FE you can hover


big note - sure sp tank if you can get one in and kill all of them is more effective, but how often does that happend compared to all team in blast tanks tearing down defenses?

[Wingflier]

Man, Phoenix, you are talking about 1.2...in 1.3 that hoot just won't fly.

A tank with sp and laser would be an even match for 2 chain scouts...

Granted, 3 scouts could probably take a tank w/blast, but you would probably lose at least one scout, probably two...

But when do 3 scouts take on 1 tank?  If 1 whole team has tanks, and one whole team has scouts, the scout team is going to get pwned.

There won't be any 3 on 1s.  It will just be laser or blast rape of the scouts...

In 1.2 you may be right, but for 1.3 I just don't know where your coming from...scouts are NO match for a loaded tank.

[BZZERKER]

It really pains me to say this but, PF is right. Even in 1.3, the tactics of 1.2 still work. Teamwork of even low-level vets (in lets say 2 scouts) will absolutely kill a single low-level vet (let alone a newb (in a sp or blast/chain/mdm tank). Teamwork will almost always win. And in 1v1 dogfights, if a chain scout also has red field, that scout can sneak up from any direction and just rip the tank apart before the tank can train his guns on the scout. 1v1 is more dependant on vehicle loadout, I think.

Wing, I think you need to start playing with some different ppl to see exactly why everyone is trying to say adding the Puma and Dragoon is a bad idea.

[PhoeniX-FlamE]

lol FYI, 2 chain scouts even on paper does more damage to a tank

2 scouts vs 1 tank - ON PAPER 1 scout dies but tank dies too

now, how often will the scouts miss? hmm probably not much, how much will the tank miss? alot

now, sure if the tank gets to used MDM then the tank wins, but if its head to head most likely the scouts will keep their range --> which is even bigger then the tank's laser range
and if thats not enough - if the scout gets hit badly he runs, if tank get hits he cant run from scout

all of the above was for sp tank and in 1.2 1 chain scout can kill an sp tank by hovering it easily

in tanks - its very importent to use teamwork, in scotus you can just run from 1 side to the other easily

There won't be any 3 on 1s. It will just be laser or blast rape of the scouts...

lol ya, not enough playrs even for that
sad but true hehe

but lets say you do get a 4v4, well, most likely in that situation the tanks will try to mdm the base, 2 toghater maybe, 4 scouts on em

heck, im not saying blast tanks totaly sucks ass, but if the players are about same level I do belive scouts will win [unless they are TOTALY new and only use 1 engine to move and always use the same weapon, in that situation most likely the scout will  stop 160m and try to shoot the tank]

[Spawn]

heh, you saved me a bunch of work booby.
wing, if you EVER played a good 1.2 game against someone who knew what they were doing, you would lose in the first ten minutes.
if there were any decent players in 1.3 that you played against, you would lose in ten minutes still.
FE came very clost to balance, a few small things out of wack, but only two ships addad to stock races, and a completely new race.  It took a really long time to get balance right, and there were a lot of testers.
If you cant read what i wright, you should take a Basic English course, and try to pass it too.

[BZ FeebleEffort]

"scouts are NO match for a loaded tank."

Because in 1.3 your physics completely remove the advantage of agility and escape speed" 1.2 scouts didn't out-muscle tanks, they flew around them or got above them, in 1.3 you lack the circle strafe speed and hover. This is absent the player piloting skill factors.
_________________